mondo-devel Mailing List for Mondo Rescue

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

nice solution to add to FAQ or Troubleshooting!

Andrew Latham

--- Thomas Richter <th...@ma...> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> > I just can't get my box to boot from the CD, even with the BIOS set to
> > CD only.  I'm not getting any error messages.  The BIOS just beeps and
> > refers me back to the BIOS Setup.
> > 
> > It boots fine from TOMSRTBT floppy, and from the RH9 CD in rescue
> > mode...
> 
> Let's see whether there is a boot block on the disk. ("EL TORITO")
> Could you try to "dd" the first couple of blocks of the cdrom and
> scan in there for the letters "TORITO"?
> 
> $ dd if=/dev/cdrom count=256 | fgrep "TORITO"
> 	^^^^^^^^^^
> 	Or whatever the name of the device file of
> 	your CDROM is.
> 
> What's the result of the above?
> 
> Greetings,
> 	Thomas
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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May I suggest that you add HumorV2.0 to log files along with beerV4.7
to create a better log viewing experiance.

Andrew "search and replace unneeded data with /dev/null" Latham

--- Hugo Rabson <hug...@mo...> wrote:
> > >, but he should be thankful there are users 
> > > who come with feedback.
> 
> I'm all out of gratitude. Right now, I feel like Lilly Von Shtup. :-)
> 
> "I'm tired... (de dum dum doo)
>  Sick and tired of logs..."
> 
> -Hugo
> 

> ATTACHMENT part 2 application/ms-tnef name=winmail.dat

nice storie but no shirt no shoes no service. it is a law where I am.
You can be fined for an unbuttoned shirt in the county building.

Andrew "NM" Latham

--- Ugo Bellavance <ug...@ca...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Andrew Latham [mailto:la...@ya...]
> > Envoyé : Friday, October 31, 2003 10:25 AM
> > À : mon...@li...
> > Objet : Re: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
> > 
> > 
> > agreed. 
> > telling people to leave! 
> > I hate to do it but if it is required I will.
> > 
> > My friends have a coffeehouse and one night a young man came 
> > in with his shirt
> > undone to inpress the ladies I guess. I asked him to button 
> > up his shirt or
> > leave, before he got to the counter. he left. He couldn't 
> > have it his way so he
> > left. 
> > 
> > Andrew "How Rude!" Latham
> Well, it looks it's time for stories, so i'll tell you one of one of my
> management teachers.
> 
> One day, a man enters a store.  He goes to a salesperson, who was quite
> experienced.  After a few minutes of talking, the discussion started to heat
> up.  The salesperson has been humble enough to recognize that he could not
> get along easily with this kind of customer, so he redirected to another
> salesperson.  Everything went ok afterwards.  The thing is that you're
> sometimes better off leaving your potential customer to another person, or
> even to your competitor. 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
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=====
Andrew Latham

Penguin Loving, Moralist Agnostic.

What Is an agnostic? -  An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth in matters 
such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other religions are 
concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time.
 
LathamA.com - (lay-th-ham-eh)
la...@la... - la...@ya...

Hi,

> I just can't get my box to boot from the CD, even with the BIOS set to
> CD only.  I'm not getting any error messages.  The BIOS just beeps and
> refers me back to the BIOS Setup.
> 
> It boots fine from TOMSRTBT floppy, and from the RH9 CD in rescue
> mode...

Let's see whether there is a boot block on the disk. ("EL TORITO")
Could you try to "dd" the first couple of blocks of the cdrom and
scan in there for the letters "TORITO"?

$ dd if=/dev/cdrom count=256 | fgrep "TORITO"
	^^^^^^^^^^
	Or whatever the name of the device file of
	your CDROM is.

What's the result of the above?

Greetings,
	Thomas

> >, but he should be thankful there are users 
> > who come with feedback.

I'm all out of gratitude. Right now, I feel like Lilly Von Shtup. :-)

"I'm tired... (de dum dum doo)
 Sick and tired of logs..."

-Hugo

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Andrew Latham [mailto:la...@ya...]
> Envoy=E9 : Friday, October 31, 2003 10:25 AM
> =C0 : mon...@li...
> Objet : Re: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
>=20
>=20
> agreed.=20
> telling people to leave!=20
> I hate to do it but if it is required I will.
>=20
> My friends have a coffeehouse and one night a young man came=20
> in with his shirt
> undone to inpress the ladies I guess. I asked him to button=20
> up his shirt or
> leave, before he got to the counter. he left. He couldn't=20
> have it his way so he
> left.=20
>=20
> Andrew "How Rude!" Latham
Well, it looks it's time for stories, so i'll tell you one of one of my =
management teachers.

One day, a man enters a store.  He goes to a salesperson, who was quite =
experienced.  After a few minutes of talking, the discussion started to =
heat up.  The salesperson has been humble enough to recognize that he =
could not get along easily with this kind of customer, so he redirected =
to another salesperson.  Everything went ok afterwards.  The thing is =
that you're sometimes better off leaving your potential customer to =
another person, or even to your competitor.=20

agreed. 
telling people to leave! 
I hate to do it but if it is required I will.

My friends have a coffeehouse and one night a young man came in with his shirt
undone to inpress the ladies I guess. I asked him to button up his shirt or
leave, before he got to the counter. he left. He couldn't have it his way so he
left. 

Andrew "How Rude!" Latham



--- Damon Register <dam...@lm...> wrote:
> Hugo Rabson wrote:
> 
> >Jonathan Scott wrote:-
> >  
> >
> >>Just curious, but what use is a social contract when you put 
> >>all the obligation onto the user?
> >>    
> >>
> I must be missing something somewhere.  Why all this resistance to such
> a concept?  What's wrong with some simple rules of order.  In my
> relatively short lifetime I have never seen any example of anarchy
> working better than order. 
> 
> >Why so one-sided? Well, we're all users. :) That's the point. It's just that
> sometimes you're the dog & sometimes you're the fire hydrant. ;)
> >  
> >
> so who is the cat?
> 
> >It's like a kibbutz but with C instead of Hebrew.
> >  
> >
> I like the analogy.
> 
> During one of those long boring waits in a doctor's office, I read an
> interesting article in a business magazine.  It addressed the issue of
> companies having to deal with problem clients and deciding at some
> point that it is better to fire the client.  I certainly don't have any 
> problem
> with the dev team saying follow these rules or take a hike.  One
> poster said we shouldn't chase away users but as in the above mentioned
> article, enough is enough.
> 
> Damon Register
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel

yes I am aware of that. I want mondo to be capable of doing it. 
not for personal greed but, so more donations will go the way of the 
devteam/Hugo.

I to have resorted to ghost for the near term. I would prefer using a PXE
booted Mondo on all PCs and possible RSYNC to a second raid arry. In the
beowulf world you use a duplicate raid array in another part of the complex as
your backup because restore time is important. 


Andrew "let my real sig slip a few times need to learn to uncheck it" Latham
I use mondo for the same reason I use yahoo. If some tells me that they sent me
an email and claims I didn't get it, I reply asking how long yahoo was down? 


--- Ugo Bellavance <ug...@ca...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > --- Andrew Latham <la...@ya...> wrote:
> > > > I am interested in the backup of Microsoft PCs. I don't
> > > want to do it but
> > > > clients do. The project would gather more interest with
> > > such an ability.
> > 
> > If "the project" means Mondo then yes, Mondo has supported 
> > NTFS backups
> > since 1.60 or thereabouts.
> > 
> > # mondoarchive -x /dev/hda1
> > 
> > Mondo 1.7x uses Partimage, which is a Linux equivalent of 
> > Norton Ghost.
> > 
> > Norton Ghost will do what you want, reliably, whereas Mondo 
> > won't because I
> > haven't yet tried to port Partimage's NTFS support; instead 
> > I've wrapped
> > Mondo around it. This was not a perfect fit. However, it 
> > works well enough
> > for me for most purposes.
> > 
> > If you just want to backup Windows PCs, use Norton Ghost. 
> > That's my advice.
> > 
> > -Hugo
> > 
> I bought a few licences recently.  For less than 30$CDN/PC, it is cheap. 
> Symantec Ghost 7.5 Enterprise.  There is a console that allows you to do
> everything from there, do incremental backups, full backups, install
> software...
> 
> Ugo
> > 
> > 
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> > Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> > help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> > YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Mondo-devel mailing list
> > Mon...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel
> > 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel

I just can't get my box to boot from the CD, even with the BIOS set to
CD only.  I'm not getting any error messages.  The BIOS just beeps and
refers me back to the BIOS Setup.

It boots fine from TOMSRTBT floppy, and from the RH9 CD in rescue
mode...

Attached is the mindi.log file.

Earl Eiland

this is a good idea, I won't tell you its not. Many websites have bug reports
and such built in. 

Andrew "Just got up" Latham

--- Jonathan Scott <jw...@ys...> wrote:
> What if there was a standard form on the webpage (I'm flying blind here as I
> have not looked at it in a long time) where people submit their problem and
> it prompts them for specific information, and if it is not provided the form
> will not submit? Chances are, a newbie will be attracted to such a form more
> than being first forced to enter the mailing list and dealing with us? ;')
> 
> Just a suggestion.....
> Jonathan Scott
> 
> P.S. Got a beer with my name on it? It's Friday where I'm at. ;)
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mon...@li...
> [mailto:mon...@li...]On Behalf Of Andrew Latham
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:43 PM
> To: mon...@li...
> Subject: RE: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
> 
> 
> No HTML here you must be doing fine on that end.
> 
> A lot of people don't understand open source. This is the first list
> I have been on where it was noticed. I am here to help. I won't get mad.
> 
> when someone post a problem and a snipet of the log and ask for help it is
> difficult to tell them that I(we) need more information. What OS what
> version
> from who with what versions of mount, mkisofs, other important software, &
> some
> propietary software are simple questions that tell hugo myself and others
> that
> maybe that obscure version of mount is your problem and upgrade it cause it
> is
> in fact free as in beer. mmmmmm.... beer...... be back in a bit.
> 
> Andrew "Thirsty" Latham
> 
> 
> --- Jonathan Scott <jw...@ys...> wrote:
> > Wasn't that, then, in fact just a display if his displeasure towards some
> > users? Forgive me for not understanding exactly what it is that has him
> > upset, but he should be thankful there are users who come with feedback.
> >
> > I would agree with any disclaimer or some such when joining the group,
> just
> > so people do not get into the wrong frame of mind. I agree users need to
> > understand it is 1) free, 2) the support is free, and 3) they need to
> > understand the domain of the software as this is not M$, where even a
> newbie
> > could pick it up in a matter of minutes even if it is not stable nor
> > powerful.
> >
> > I personally am glad Mondo is here. But let's not let our emotions chase
> > users away.
> >
> > Humbly Your's,
> > Jonathan Scott
> >
> > P.S. Am I posting in HTML? I thought I have it set to text. Please let me
> > know. Thanks.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mon...@li...
> > [mailto:mon...@li...]On Behalf Of Andrew Latham
> > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:07 PM
> > To: mon...@li...
> > Subject: RE: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
> >
> >
> > Nice. Well Said, Bravo.
> > --- Ugo Bellavance <ug...@ca...> wrote:
> > > Objet : RE: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
> > >
> > >
> > > Just curious, but what use is a social contract when you put all the
> > > obligation onto the user?
> > >
> > > Jonathan Scott
> > >
> > > ---Ugo
> > >
> > > Ok, it might not be a valid contract.  It might not be social either,
> but
> > > since the devteam doesn't have any obligation towards non-paying users,
> > there
> > > is no obligation on the devteam's side.  What Hugo tries to do is to
> avoid
> > > being pissed off by people who didn't try to help themselves first and
> > don't
> > > understand that the devteam's resources are limited.  Finally, he wants
> to
> > be
> > > able to redirect people like this to this "agreement", saying that if
> they
> > > respect this "agreement", they'll be treated the same way other
> compliant
> > > users are, and if they don't respect the "agreement", they'll end up at
> > the
> > > end of the queue (they will get help when Hugo will have nothing to do
> > i.e.
> > > never).
> > >
> > >
> > > *** please avoid posting in HTML***
> > >
> > > hth
> > > Ugo
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: mon...@li...
> > > [mailto:mon...@li...]On Behalf Of Hugo Rabson
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 10:44 PM
> > > To: mon...@li...
> > > Subject: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
> > >
> > >
> > > I am thinking of writing and publishing a social contract which a
> > list-member
> > > is taken to have agreed to, when they join the mailing list. Something
> > like
> > > this:-
> > >
> > > DUTIES OF THE USER
> > > 1. To try to troubleshoot the problem myself, as best I can.
> > > 2. To read the output log file of mondoarchive, mondorestore and/or
> mindi
> > (as
> > > applicable).
> > > 3. To use the latest snapshots (or CVS checkouts) when reporting bugs.
> > > 4. To make it clear what he/she wants.
> > >
> > > I always held these truths were self-evident but apparently I've been
> > naive.
> > > Comments?
> > >
> > > Or perhaps I should simply post a set of rules to the list every week?
> > >
> > > -Hugo
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> > > Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> > > help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> > > YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Mondo-devel mailing list
> > > Mon...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel
> >
> > =====
> > Andrew Latham
> >
> > Penguin Loving, Moralist Agnostic.
> >
> > What Is an agnostic? -  An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth
> > in matters
> > such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other
> religions
> > are
> > concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time.
> >
> > LathamA.com - (lay-th-ham-eh)
> > la...@la... - la...@ya...
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> > Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> > help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> > YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Mondo-devel mailing list
> > Mon...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> > Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> > help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> > YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Mondo-devel mailing list
> > Mon...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
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> _______________________________________________
> Mondo-devel mailing list
> Mon...@li...
> 
=== message truncated ===

=====
Andrew Latham

Penguin Loving, Moralist Agnostic.

What Is an agnostic? -  An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth in matters 
such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other religions are 
concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time.
 
LathamA.com - (lay-th-ham-eh)
la...@la... - la...@ya...

I am looking for mondo's level of compression.
I have used ghost. I want more. I want to resize or write to a different
filesystem (FAT32). I am still hunting for info on this. "My" opinion is that
Mondo does backups the why they should be done!

Andrew "Mondo Fan#1" Latham



--- Hugo Rabson <hug...@mo...> wrote:
> --- Andrew Latham <la...@ya...> wrote:
> > > I am interested in the backup of Microsoft PCs. I don't
> > want to do it but
> > > clients do. The project would gather more interest with
> > such an ability.
> 
> If "the project" means Mondo then yes, Mondo has supported NTFS backups
> since 1.60 or thereabouts.
> 
> # mondoarchive -x /dev/hda1
> 
> Mondo 1.7x uses Partimage, which is a Linux equivalent of Norton Ghost.
> 
> Norton Ghost will do what you want, reliably, whereas Mondo won't because I
> haven't yet tried to port Partimage's NTFS support; instead I've wrapped
> Mondo around it. This was not a perfect fit. However, it works well enough
> for me for most purposes.
> 
> If you just want to backup Windows PCs, use Norton Ghost. That's my advice.
> 
> -Hugo
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> _______________________________________________
> Mondo-devel mailing list
> Mon...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel

Hugo Rabson wrote:

>Jonathan Scott wrote:-
>  
>
>>Just curious, but what use is a social contract when you put 
>>all the obligation onto the user?
>>    
>>
I must be missing something somewhere.  Why all this resistance to such
a concept?  What's wrong with some simple rules of order.  In my
relatively short lifetime I have never seen any example of anarchy
working better than order. 

>Why so one-sided? Well, we're all users. :) That's the point. It's just that sometimes you're the dog & sometimes you're the fire hydrant. ;)
>  
>
so who is the cat?

>It's like a kibbutz but with C instead of Hebrew.
>  
>
I like the analogy.

During one of those long boring waits in a doctor's office, I read an
interesting article in a business magazine.  It addressed the issue of
companies having to deal with problem clients and deciding at some
point that it is better to fire the client.  I certainly don't have any 
problem
with the dev team saying follow these rules or take a hike.  One
poster said we shouldn't chase away users but as in the above mentioned
article, enough is enough.

Damon Register

On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 03:28:50PM -0600 or thereabouts, Joe Baker wrote:

> > --- Joe Baker <joe...@dc...> wrote:
> > > If you do a full backup on say march 1st, 2003.
> > > Then install an RPM which installs files
> > > which pre-date the full backup....
> > > 
> > > Then perform a diff backup on October 28th.
> > > Will the diff backup include the files which 
> > > pre-date the full backup.

I just ran a test of this.  

Just installed id3lib_3.8.3-5.fr_i386.rpm

[root@bofh root]# rpm -qpl /var/cache/apt/archives/id3lib_3.8.3-5.fr_i386.rpm
/usr/bin/id3convert
/usr/bin/id3cp
/usr/bin/id3info
/usr/bin/id3tag
/usr/lib/libid3-3.8.so.3
/usr/lib/libid3-3.8.so.3.0.0

Now,

[cdaly@bofh cdaly]$ ls -l /usr/bin/id3cp
-rwxr-xr-x    1 root     root        14250 Oct 30 15:00 /usr/bin/id3cp

[cdaly@bofh cdaly]$ ls -l --time=ctime /usr/bin/id3cp
-rwxr-xr-x    1 root     root        14250 Oct 31 08:59 /usr/bin/id3cp

[cdaly@bofh cdaly]$ touch -d 07:00 newerfile

[cdaly@bofh cdaly]$ find /usr/bin -name '*' -newer newerfile
/usr/bin

[cdaly@bofh cdaly]$ find /usr/bin -name '*' -cnewer newerfile
/usr/bin
/usr/bin/id3cp
/usr/bin/id3convert
/usr/bin/id3info
/usr/bin/id3tag

/usr/local/bin/mondo-makefilelist uses find to generate the list of files to
backup.  Currently, if the Differential flag is set, the call is modified
thus:

[ "$USE_DIFFERENTIAL" = "yes" ] && call="$call -newer $DATEFILE -a"

As you can see this uses '-newer' which we see above does not pick up the
newly installed files.  However, the use of '-cnewer' with 'find' _does_
pick up the latest files.  mondo-makefilelist is deprecated in mondo 1.7x is
it not?  However, the 'find' call is still made.  Can this be changed to 

$call -cnewer $DATEFILE -a

?

On my system, using mondo's 'find' call I get:

    518 entries in filelist.newer
    924 entries in filelist.cnewer

Ie. considerably more files using 'find -cnewer' instead of 'find -newer'.  

I haven't reviewed these files to see if they are already backed up in my
full backup but I'm assuming they aren't.


> My system has 17 CDs worth of backup data.
> I'd consider it a waste of human effort, hardware resources
> and time to do anything but a differential backup.
> 
> Differential backups are an important feature and I 
> hope that it gets more attention in the future.

AIUI, there was a feature request to add 'dump'-style multilevel backup
support some time back.  I don't remember if it happened.  Hugo?

> Presently, it doesn't delete files which have been
> deleted since the full backup.  This isn't essential
> yet in my opinion, but it is on my wish list.

This is an interesting element.  AFAIK, no backup system will _delete_
existing files at restore time.  Files will get overwritten with the
archived copy but no files will get deleted.  How is the restore supposed to
distinguish between files that were deleted and restored by the full backup
and files that were added between the restore of the full backup and the
restore of the differential backup?  Essentially, you would need the
differential backup to keep a list of _all_ files on the system rather than
just those backed up.  Then it's got to analyse each unaccounted for file
and decide whether it's a deleted one or a newly added one.

Conor
-- 
Conor Daly 
Met Eireann, Glasnevin Hill, Dublin 9, Ireland
Ph +353 1 8064276 Fax +353 1 8064247
------------------------------------
bofh.irmet.ie running RedHat Linux 09:12:05  up 1 day, 55 min,  4 users,  load average: 0.13, 0.07, 0.07


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>=20
> --- Andrew Latham <la...@ya...> wrote:
> > > I am interested in the backup of Microsoft PCs. I don't
> > want to do it but
> > > clients do. The project would gather more interest with
> > such an ability.
>=20
> If "the project" means Mondo then yes, Mondo has supported=20
> NTFS backups
> since 1.60 or thereabouts.
>=20
> # mondoarchive -x /dev/hda1
>=20
> Mondo 1.7x uses Partimage, which is a Linux equivalent of=20
> Norton Ghost.
>=20
> Norton Ghost will do what you want, reliably, whereas Mondo=20
> won't because I
> haven't yet tried to port Partimage's NTFS support; instead=20
> I've wrapped
> Mondo around it. This was not a perfect fit. However, it=20
> works well enough
> for me for most purposes.
>=20
> If you just want to backup Windows PCs, use Norton Ghost.=20
> That's my advice.
>=20
> -Hugo
>=20
I bought a few licences recently.  For less than 30$CDN/PC, it is cheap. =
 Symantec Ghost 7.5 Enterprise.  There is a console that allows you to =
do everything from there, do incremental backups, full backups, install =
software...

Ugo
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> _______________________________________________
> Mondo-devel mailing list
> Mon...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel
>=20

> Wasn't that, then, in fact just a display if his displeasure=20
> towards some
> users?=20
It is not just a display.  It was caused by unpleasant users.

> Forgive me for not understanding exactly what it is=20
> that has him
> upset
A few days ago, some user wanted some help, but didn't respect these =
guidelines and was really acting in a displeasant way.  He offered some =
feedback, but this feedback wasn't enough to help the devteam.  He =
didn't understand he had to work a bit more on his side to enable the =
devteam to work on this issue.
>, but he should be thankful there are users who come=20
> with feedback.

He is.  This is not the point.

>=20
> I would agree with any disclaimer or some such when joining=20
> the group, just
> so people do not get into the wrong frame of mind. I agree=20
> users need to
> understand it is 1) free, 2) the support is free, and 3) they need to
> understand the domain of the software as this is not M$,=20
> where even a newbie
> could pick it up in a matter of minutes even if it is not stable nor
> powerful.
>=20
> I personally am glad Mondo is here. But let's not let our=20
> emotions chase
> users away.
>=20
> Humbly Your's,
> Jonathan Scott
>=20
> P.S. Am I posting in HTML? I thought I have it set to text.=20
> Please let me
> know. Thanks.

This message was in plain text.  But sometimes, the behavior of a =
'reply' is different than a 'new message'

Thanks,

Ugo

>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mon...@li...
> [mailto:mon...@li...]On Behalf Of=20
> Andrew Latham
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:07 PM
> To: mon...@li...
> Subject: RE: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
>=20
>=20
> Nice. Well Said, Bravo.
> --- Ugo Bellavance <ug...@ca...> wrote:
> > Objet : RE: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
> >
> >
> > Just curious, but what use is a social contract when you put all the
> > obligation onto the user?
> >
> > Jonathan Scott
> >
> > ---Ugo
> >
> > Ok, it might not be a valid contract.  It might not be=20
> social either, but
> > since the devteam doesn't have any obligation towards=20
> non-paying users,
> there
> > is no obligation on the devteam's side.  What Hugo tries to=20
> do is to avoid
> > being pissed off by people who didn't try to help=20
> themselves first and
> don't
> > understand that the devteam's resources are limited. =20
> Finally, he wants to
> be
> > able to redirect people like this to this "agreement",=20
> saying that if they
> > respect this "agreement", they'll be treated the same way=20
> other compliant
> > users are, and if they don't respect the "agreement",=20
> they'll end up at
> the
> > end of the queue (they will get help when Hugo will have=20
> nothing to do
> i.e.
> > never).
> >
> >
> > *** please avoid posting in HTML***
> >
> > hth
> > Ugo
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mon...@li...
> > [mailto:mon...@li...]On Behalf=20
> Of Hugo Rabson
> > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 10:44 PM
> > To: mon...@li...
> > Subject: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
> >
> >
> > I am thinking of writing and publishing a social contract which a
> list-member
> > is taken to have agreed to, when they join the mailing=20
> list. Something
> like
> > this:-
> >
> > DUTIES OF THE USER
> > 1. To try to troubleshoot the problem myself, as best I can.
> > 2. To read the output log file of mondoarchive,=20
> mondorestore and/or mindi
> (as
> > applicable).
> > 3. To use the latest snapshots (or CVS checkouts) when=20
> reporting bugs.
> > 4. To make it clear what he/she wants.
> >
> > I always held these truths were self-evident but apparently=20
> I've been
> naive.
> > Comments?
> >
> > Or perhaps I should simply post a set of rules to the list=20
> every week?
> >
> > -Hugo
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> > Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> > help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> > YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Mondo-devel mailing list
> > Mon...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Andrew Latham
>=20
> Penguin Loving, Moralist Agnostic.
>=20
> What Is an agnostic? -  An agnostic thinks it impossible to=20
> know the truth
> in matters
> such as God and the future life with which Christianity and=20
> other religions
> are
> concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the=20
> present time.
>=20
> LathamA.com - (lay-th-ham-eh)
> la...@la... - la...@ya...
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> _______________________________________________
> Mondo-devel mailing list
> Mon...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> _______________________________________________
> Mondo-devel mailing list
> Mon...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel
>=20

Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:-
> is there a limit on the number of characters or entries one
> can specify in the exclude list?

It's about 500.

Use -J to be safe. That way, you can generate your own filelist first & feed
it to Mondo.

-Hugo

Jonathan Scott wrote:-
> Just curious, but what use is a social contract when you put 
> all the obligation onto the user?

Fair point. The user is also obligated to try to help others.

Why so one-sided? Well, we're all users. :) That's the point. It's just that
sometimes you're the dog & sometimes you're the fire hydrant. ;)

      USERS WHO ARE LOST
      USERS WHO HELP THEM
     [ ----- USERS ----- ]

Does that help?

It's like a kibbutz but with C instead of Hebrew.

-Hugo

--- Andrew Latham <la...@ya...> wrote:
> > I am interested in the backup of Microsoft PCs. I don't
> want to do it but
> > clients do. The project would gather more interest with
> such an ability.

If "the project" means Mondo then yes, Mondo has supported NTFS backups
since 1.60 or thereabouts.

# mondoarchive -x /dev/hda1

Mondo 1.7x uses Partimage, which is a Linux equivalent of Norton Ghost.

Norton Ghost will do what you want, reliably, whereas Mondo won't because I
haven't yet tried to port Partimage's NTFS support; instead I've wrapped
Mondo around it. This was not a perfect fit. However, it works well enough
for me for most purposes.

If you just want to backup Windows PCs, use Norton Ghost. That's my advice.

-Hugo

What if there was a standard form on the webpage (I'm flying blind here as I
have not looked at it in a long time) where people submit their problem and
it prompts them for specific information, and if it is not provided the form
will not submit? Chances are, a newbie will be attracted to such a form more
than being first forced to enter the mailing list and dealing with us? ;')

Just a suggestion.....
Jonathan Scott

P.S. Got a beer with my name on it? It's Friday where I'm at. ;)


-----Original Message-----
From: mon...@li...
[mailto:mon...@li...]On Behalf Of Andrew Latham
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:43 PM
To: mon...@li...
Subject: RE: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract


No HTML here you must be doing fine on that end.

A lot of people don't understand open source. This is the first list
I have been on where it was noticed. I am here to help. I won't get mad.

when someone post a problem and a snipet of the log and ask for help it is
difficult to tell them that I(we) need more information. What OS what
version
from who with what versions of mount, mkisofs, other important software, &
some
propietary software are simple questions that tell hugo myself and others
that
maybe that obscure version of mount is your problem and upgrade it cause it
is
in fact free as in beer. mmmmmm.... beer...... be back in a bit.

Andrew "Thirsty" Latham


--- Jonathan Scott <jw...@ys...> wrote:
> Wasn't that, then, in fact just a display if his displeasure towards some
> users? Forgive me for not understanding exactly what it is that has him
> upset, but he should be thankful there are users who come with feedback.
>
> I would agree with any disclaimer or some such when joining the group,
just
> so people do not get into the wrong frame of mind. I agree users need to
> understand it is 1) free, 2) the support is free, and 3) they need to
> understand the domain of the software as this is not M$, where even a
newbie
> could pick it up in a matter of minutes even if it is not stable nor
> powerful.
>
> I personally am glad Mondo is here. But let's not let our emotions chase
> users away.
>
> Humbly Your's,
> Jonathan Scott
>
> P.S. Am I posting in HTML? I thought I have it set to text. Please let me
> know. Thanks.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mon...@li...
> [mailto:mon...@li...]On Behalf Of Andrew Latham
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:07 PM
> To: mon...@li...
> Subject: RE: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
>
>
> Nice. Well Said, Bravo.
> --- Ugo Bellavance <ug...@ca...> wrote:
> > Objet : RE: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
> >
> >
> > Just curious, but what use is a social contract when you put all the
> > obligation onto the user?
> >
> > Jonathan Scott
> >
> > ---Ugo
> >
> > Ok, it might not be a valid contract.  It might not be social either,
but
> > since the devteam doesn't have any obligation towards non-paying users,
> there
> > is no obligation on the devteam's side.  What Hugo tries to do is to
avoid
> > being pissed off by people who didn't try to help themselves first and
> don't
> > understand that the devteam's resources are limited.  Finally, he wants
to
> be
> > able to redirect people like this to this "agreement", saying that if
they
> > respect this "agreement", they'll be treated the same way other
compliant
> > users are, and if they don't respect the "agreement", they'll end up at
> the
> > end of the queue (they will get help when Hugo will have nothing to do
> i.e.
> > never).
> >
> >
> > *** please avoid posting in HTML***
> >
> > hth
> > Ugo
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mon...@li...
> > [mailto:mon...@li...]On Behalf Of Hugo Rabson
> > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 10:44 PM
> > To: mon...@li...
> > Subject: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
> >
> >
> > I am thinking of writing and publishing a social contract which a
> list-member
> > is taken to have agreed to, when they join the mailing list. Something
> like
> > this:-
> >
> > DUTIES OF THE USER
> > 1. To try to troubleshoot the problem myself, as best I can.
> > 2. To read the output log file of mondoarchive, mondorestore and/or
mindi
> (as
> > applicable).
> > 3. To use the latest snapshots (or CVS checkouts) when reporting bugs.
> > 4. To make it clear what he/she wants.
> >
> > I always held these truths were self-evident but apparently I've been
> naive.
> > Comments?
> >
> > Or perhaps I should simply post a set of rules to the list every week?
> >
> > -Hugo
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> > Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> > help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> > YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Mondo-devel mailing list
> > Mon...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel
>
> =====
> Andrew Latham
>
> Penguin Loving, Moralist Agnostic.
>
> What Is an agnostic? -  An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth
> in matters
> such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other
religions
> are
> concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time.
>
> LathamA.com - (lay-th-ham-eh)
> la...@la... - la...@ya...
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> _______________________________________________
> Mondo-devel mailing list
> Mon...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> _______________________________________________
> Mondo-devel mailing list
> Mon...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel


-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
_______________________________________________
Mondo-devel mailing list
Mon...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel

did some fact hunting.

http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/captive/ has a solution that uses the M$
driver. I am worried about that!

http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/info/ntfs.html
has a lot of details but claim no working solution do to - maintanice databases
in the file system

so how can a disk be repartitioned and formated to NTFS and then have the
origonal files dumped on.  (I have used solutions for bootrecords and such)

A disk can be Partitioned. Successful formating is rumored. could we then use a
M$ boot disk? exactly how. We are assuming that everyone using this does own a
legal copy of the OS. can we flex this with a batch file and have them boot
from the OS CD? Ideas?

DOS ENUM is out cause of the kernel or so I read (correct me if I am wrong
cause I didnot understand some of the giberish)


--- Andrew Latham <la...@ya...> wrote:
> I am interested in the backup of Microsoft PCs. I don't want to do it but
> clients do. The project would gather more interest with such an ability.
> 
> Can we back up a FAT32 system with mondo. I belive so. Can we backup a NTFS
> system with mondo. Maybe....
> 
> With out reinventing the wheel what are our options near term. 
> dump the drive to a samba share and use a networkable ntfs boot disk and dump
> it back. That does not sound fun. I am no filesystem hacker; however I know
> vaugely why ntfs is so hard to work with. more later....
> 
> I am aware that this is not a new topic. I just belive that all the tools are
> out there to do it and I (we) are missing something.
> 
> Andrew "Quotation boy" Latham
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> _______________________________________________
> Mondo-devel mailing list
> Mon...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel

=====
Andrew Latham

Penguin Loving, Moralist Agnostic.

What Is an agnostic? -  An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth in matters 
such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other religions are 
concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time.
 
LathamA.com - (lay-th-ham-eh)
la...@la... - la...@ya...

No HTML here you must be doing fine on that end.

A lot of people don't understand open source. This is the first list 
I have been on where it was noticed. I am here to help. I won't get mad.

when someone post a problem and a snipet of the log and ask for help it is
difficult to tell them that I(we) need more information. What OS what version
from who with what versions of mount, mkisofs, other important software, & some
propietary software are simple questions that tell hugo myself and others that
maybe that obscure version of mount is your problem and upgrade it cause it is
in fact free as in beer. mmmmmm.... beer...... be back in a bit.

Andrew "Thirsty" Latham


--- Jonathan Scott <jw...@ys...> wrote:
> Wasn't that, then, in fact just a display if his displeasure towards some
> users? Forgive me for not understanding exactly what it is that has him
> upset, but he should be thankful there are users who come with feedback.
> 
> I would agree with any disclaimer or some such when joining the group, just
> so people do not get into the wrong frame of mind. I agree users need to
> understand it is 1) free, 2) the support is free, and 3) they need to
> understand the domain of the software as this is not M$, where even a newbie
> could pick it up in a matter of minutes even if it is not stable nor
> powerful.
> 
> I personally am glad Mondo is here. But let's not let our emotions chase
> users away.
> 
> Humbly Your's,
> Jonathan Scott
> 
> P.S. Am I posting in HTML? I thought I have it set to text. Please let me
> know. Thanks.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mon...@li...
> [mailto:mon...@li...]On Behalf Of Andrew Latham
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:07 PM
> To: mon...@li...
> Subject: RE: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
> 
> 
> Nice. Well Said, Bravo.
> --- Ugo Bellavance <ug...@ca...> wrote:
> > Objet : RE: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
> >
> >
> > Just curious, but what use is a social contract when you put all the
> > obligation onto the user?
> >
> > Jonathan Scott
> >
> > ---Ugo
> >
> > Ok, it might not be a valid contract.  It might not be social either, but
> > since the devteam doesn't have any obligation towards non-paying users,
> there
> > is no obligation on the devteam's side.  What Hugo tries to do is to avoid
> > being pissed off by people who didn't try to help themselves first and
> don't
> > understand that the devteam's resources are limited.  Finally, he wants to
> be
> > able to redirect people like this to this "agreement", saying that if they
> > respect this "agreement", they'll be treated the same way other compliant
> > users are, and if they don't respect the "agreement", they'll end up at
> the
> > end of the queue (they will get help when Hugo will have nothing to do
> i.e.
> > never).
> >
> >
> > *** please avoid posting in HTML***
> >
> > hth
> > Ugo
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mon...@li...
> > [mailto:mon...@li...]On Behalf Of Hugo Rabson
> > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 10:44 PM
> > To: mon...@li...
> > Subject: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
> >
> >
> > I am thinking of writing and publishing a social contract which a
> list-member
> > is taken to have agreed to, when they join the mailing list. Something
> like
> > this:-
> >
> > DUTIES OF THE USER
> > 1. To try to troubleshoot the problem myself, as best I can.
> > 2. To read the output log file of mondoarchive, mondorestore and/or mindi
> (as
> > applicable).
> > 3. To use the latest snapshots (or CVS checkouts) when reporting bugs.
> > 4. To make it clear what he/she wants.
> >
> > I always held these truths were self-evident but apparently I've been
> naive.
> > Comments?
> >
> > Or perhaps I should simply post a set of rules to the list every week?
> >
> > -Hugo
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> > Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> > help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> > YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Mondo-devel mailing list
> > Mon...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel
> 
> =====
> Andrew Latham
> 
> Penguin Loving, Moralist Agnostic.
> 
> What Is an agnostic? -  An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth
> in matters
> such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other religions
> are
> concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time.
> 
> LathamA.com - (lay-th-ham-eh)
> la...@la... - la...@ya...
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> _______________________________________________
> Mondo-devel mailing list
> Mon...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> _______________________________________________
> Mondo-devel mailing list
> Mon...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel

Wasn't that, then, in fact just a display if his displeasure towards some
users? Forgive me for not understanding exactly what it is that has him
upset, but he should be thankful there are users who come with feedback.

I would agree with any disclaimer or some such when joining the group, just
so people do not get into the wrong frame of mind. I agree users need to
understand it is 1) free, 2) the support is free, and 3) they need to
understand the domain of the software as this is not M$, where even a newbie
could pick it up in a matter of minutes even if it is not stable nor
powerful.

I personally am glad Mondo is here. But let's not let our emotions chase
users away.

Humbly Your's,
Jonathan Scott

P.S. Am I posting in HTML? I thought I have it set to text. Please let me
know. Thanks.


-----Original Message-----
From: mon...@li...
[mailto:mon...@li...]On Behalf Of Andrew Latham
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:07 PM
To: mon...@li...
Subject: RE: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract


Nice. Well Said, Bravo.
--- Ugo Bellavance <ug...@ca...> wrote:
> Objet : RE: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
>
>
> Just curious, but what use is a social contract when you put all the
> obligation onto the user?
>
> Jonathan Scott
>
> ---Ugo
>
> Ok, it might not be a valid contract.  It might not be social either, but
> since the devteam doesn't have any obligation towards non-paying users,
there
> is no obligation on the devteam's side.  What Hugo tries to do is to avoid
> being pissed off by people who didn't try to help themselves first and
don't
> understand that the devteam's resources are limited.  Finally, he wants to
be
> able to redirect people like this to this "agreement", saying that if they
> respect this "agreement", they'll be treated the same way other compliant
> users are, and if they don't respect the "agreement", they'll end up at
the
> end of the queue (they will get help when Hugo will have nothing to do
i.e.
> never).
>
>
> *** please avoid posting in HTML***
>
> hth
> Ugo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mon...@li...
> [mailto:mon...@li...]On Behalf Of Hugo Rabson
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 10:44 PM
> To: mon...@li...
> Subject: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
>
>
> I am thinking of writing and publishing a social contract which a
list-member
> is taken to have agreed to, when they join the mailing list. Something
like
> this:-
>
> DUTIES OF THE USER
> 1. To try to troubleshoot the problem myself, as best I can.
> 2. To read the output log file of mondoarchive, mondorestore and/or mindi
(as
> applicable).
> 3. To use the latest snapshots (or CVS checkouts) when reporting bugs.
> 4. To make it clear what he/she wants.
>
> I always held these truths were self-evident but apparently I've been
naive.
> Comments?
>
> Or perhaps I should simply post a set of rules to the list every week?
>
> -Hugo
>
>
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=====
Andrew Latham

Penguin Loving, Moralist Agnostic.

What Is an agnostic? -  An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth
in matters
such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other religions
are
concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time.

LathamA.com - (lay-th-ham-eh)
la...@la... - la...@ya...


-------------------------------------------------------
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_______________________________________________
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I am interested in the backup of Microsoft PCs. I don't want to do it but
clients do. The project would gather more interest with such an ability.

Can we back up a FAT32 system with mondo. I belive so. Can we backup a NTFS
system with mondo. Maybe....

With out reinventing the wheel what are our options near term. 
dump the drive to a samba share and use a networkable ntfs boot disk and dump
it back. That does not sound fun. I am no filesystem hacker; however I know
vaugely why ntfs is so hard to work with. more later....

I am aware that this is not a new topic. I just belive that all the tools are
out there to do it and I (we) are missing something.

Andrew "Quotation boy" Latham

Nice. Well Said, Bravo.
--- Ugo Bellavance <ug...@ca...> wrote:
> Objet : RE: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
> 
> 
> Just curious, but what use is a social contract when you put all the
> obligation onto the user?
> 
> Jonathan Scott
> 
> ---Ugo
> 
> Ok, it might not be a valid contract.  It might not be social either, but
> since the devteam doesn't have any obligation towards non-paying users, there
> is no obligation on the devteam's side.  What Hugo tries to do is to avoid
> being pissed off by people who didn't try to help themselves first and don't
> understand that the devteam's resources are limited.  Finally, he wants to be
> able to redirect people like this to this "agreement", saying that if they
> respect this "agreement", they'll be treated the same way other compliant
> users are, and if they don't respect the "agreement", they'll end up at the
> end of the queue (they will get help when Hugo will have nothing to do i.e.
> never).
> 
> 
> *** please avoid posting in HTML***
> 
> hth
> Ugo
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mon...@li...
> [mailto:mon...@li...]On Behalf Of Hugo Rabson
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 10:44 PM
> To: mon...@li...
> Subject: [Mondo-devel] Social Contract
> 
> 
> I am thinking of writing and publishing a social contract which a list-member
> is taken to have agreed to, when they join the mailing list. Something like
> this:-
> 
> DUTIES OF THE USER
> 1. To try to troubleshoot the problem myself, as best I can.
> 2. To read the output log file of mondoarchive, mondorestore and/or mindi (as
> applicable).
> 3. To use the latest snapshots (or CVS checkouts) when reporting bugs.
> 4. To make it clear what he/she wants.
> 
> I always held these truths were self-evident but apparently I've been naive.
> Comments?
> 
> Or perhaps I should simply post a set of rules to the list every week?
> 
> -Hugo
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program.
> Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive?  Does it
> help you create better code?   SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help
> YOU!  Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/
> _______________________________________________
> Mondo-devel mailing list
> Mon...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mondo-devel

=====
Andrew Latham

Penguin Loving, Moralist Agnostic.

What Is an agnostic? -  An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth in matters 
such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other religions are 
concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time.
 
LathamA.com - (lay-th-ham-eh)
la...@la... - la...@ya...