civil-devel Mailing List for Civil

On Sat, 20 Aug 2004, Mike Earl wrote:

>On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 13:29, Jan Ekholm wrote:
>> No, at least I don't prefer that approach. Packages are best, and I don't
>> care too much where the files end up, as long as things just work. An
>> archive that you can just unzip and then use without installing is second
>> best. Third and as a lowest common evil comes the ./configure circus.
>
>Yeah.  I suspect 60% of Linux users looking at a program they aren't
>sure they want will punt on discovering there's no RPM.  How big an
>issue that is at this stage I don't know...

True. I often skip apps that could be interesting just because they
require manual labour in order to get them installed...

-- 
    Pets are always a great help in times of stress. And in times of
    starvation too, o'course.
                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004, Gareth Noyce wrote:

>> No, at least I don't prefer that approach. Packages are best, and I
>> don't
>> care too much where the files end up, as long as things just work. An
>> archive that you can just unzip and then use without installing is
>> second
>> best. Third and as a lowest common evil comes the ./configure circus.
>
>Fair point :)

Yeah, why not walk the path of least resistance, horror and pain? :)

>> Maybe we can just rely on some user from the Win32 camp to do the Open
>> Source dance and help out...
>>
>> But what is wrong with just a zip/tar.gz/bundle that can simply be
>> opened
>> and directly used? For instance Enemy Territory for Linux works like
>> that.
>> On Windows the user can just drag the Civil folder from WinZip to
>> Program
>> Files and be done with it... Of course doing shortcuts and menu stuff
>> can
>> be done later as an added service.
>
>Er, nothing, really. :) Scripting the short cuts would be easy...

Yeah, I think that can be taken care of by stuff in the normal Python API,
but I'm not really sure.

-- 
    Pets are always a great help in times of stress. And in times of
    starvation too, o'course.
                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

> No, at least I don't prefer that approach. Packages are best, and I 
> don't
> care too much where the files end up, as long as things just work. An
> archive that you can just unzip and then use without installing is 
> second
> best. Third and as a lowest common evil comes the ./configure circus.

Fair point :)

> Maybe we can just rely on some user from the Win32 camp to do the Open
> Source dance and help out...
>
> But what is wrong with just a zip/tar.gz/bundle that can simply be 
> opened
> and directly used? For instance Enemy Territory for Linux works like 
> that.
> On Windows the user can just drag the Civil folder from WinZip to 
> Program
> Files and be done with it... Of course doing shortcuts and menu stuff 
> can
> be done later as an added service.

Er, nothing, really. :) Scripting the short cuts would be easy...

On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 13:29, Jan Ekholm wrote:
> No, at least I don't prefer that approach. Packages are best, and I don't
> care too much where the files end up, as long as things just work. An
> archive that you can just unzip and then use without installing is second
> best. Third and as a lowest common evil comes the ./configure circus.

Yeah.  I suspect 60% of Linux users looking at a program they aren't
sure they want will punt on discovering there's no RPM.  How big an
issue that is at this stage I don't know...

- mikee

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Gareth Noyce wrote:

>>> Well, I've got a feeling OS X will have it's own one, so you're
>>> basically making an installer for non existent windows users and maybe
>>> annoying linux ones? Not sure, basically :)
>>
>> Hm, you mean the Linux users are annoying or that we'd annoy them?
>
>Latter. I thought Unix beards expected ./config and make?! ;)

No, at least I don't prefer that approach. Packages are best, and I don't
care too much where the files end up, as long as things just work. An
archive that you can just unzip and then use without installing is second
best. Third and as a lowest common evil comes the ./configure circus.

>> Maybe we shouldn't really try to do it installable at all, just keep
>> it as
>> an academic research project. If anyone ever plays it, then it has
>> failed.
>
>Too late! Someone installed it!
>
>Anyway, I'd would like something inclusive for all platforms, for
>sanity. Don't think we can do that, and as I'm not touching win32 I
>wouldn't want to bend something that would be easy on Linux just for
>win32 ;)

Maybe we can just rely on some user from the Win32 camp to do the Open
Source dance and help out...

But what is wrong with just a zip/tar.gz/bundle that can simply be opened
and directly used? For instance Enemy Territory for Linux works like that.
On Windows the user can just drag the Civil folder from WinZip to Program
Files and be done with it... Of course doing shortcuts and menu stuff can
be done later as an added service.

-- 
   "I like the idea of democracy. You have to have someone everyone
       distrusts," said Brutha. "That way, everyone's happy."

                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

>> Well, I've got a feeling OS X will have it's own one, so you're
>> basically making an installer for non existent windows users and maybe
>> annoying linux ones? Not sure, basically :)
>
> Hm, you mean the Linux users are annoying or that we'd annoy them?

Latter. I thought Unix beards expected ./config and make?! ;)

> Maybe we shouldn't really try to do it installable at all, just keep 
> it as
> an academic research project. If anyone ever plays it, then it has 
> failed.

Too late! Someone installed it!

Anyway, I'd would like something inclusive for all platforms, for 
sanity. Don't think we can do that, and as I'm not touching win32 I 
wouldn't want to bend something that would be easy on Linux just for 
win32 ;)

G

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Gareth Noyce wrote:

>> I could if needed hack up a simple Pygame based little dialog that
>> could
>> be used to ask the player wether shortcuts (Win) or scripts in /usr/bin
>> should be created (what does OSX use?). This one could be a setup.py or
>> install.py in the root directory which the user could be recommended to
>> run.
>
>I need to investigate Pygame on OS X a little more. This whole
>application bundle does sound like the best way, especially if I can
>include Pygame and deps in the app bundle. No wanky installation of
>anything for the end user.

Yes, and easy to delete too, just nuke a directory (on the other
platforms, that is).

>Things have changed, and I've not got Civil running yet. Gimme a while
>to play :)
>
>>
>> How does this sound? Would make packaging dead simple although the
>> FSSTND/LSB isn't really honored anymore. :) Being standards compliant
>> hasn't really given any benefits to us, and all games do the same
>> anyway,
>> so why couldn't we?
>>
>> I take silence as a "Ya man, go ahead!"... ;)
>
>Well, I've got a feeling OS X will have it's own one, so you're
>basically making an installer for non existent windows users and maybe
>annoying linux ones? Not sure, basically :)

Hm, you mean the Linux users are annoying or that we'd annoy them?

>My feeling is, if it's not inclusive for all platforms, we're making
>work for ourselves. Linux is the primary platform so if we're making
>things easier for that...

Maybe we shouldn't really try to do it installable at all, just keep it as
an academic research project. If anyone ever plays it, then it has failed.

-- 
   Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in
   your home.
                             -- Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens

> I could if needed hack up a simple Pygame based little dialog that 
> could
> be used to ask the player wether shortcuts (Win) or scripts in /usr/bin
> should be created (what does OSX use?). This one could be a setup.py or
> install.py in the root directory which the user could be recommended to
> run.

I need to investigate Pygame on OS X a little more. This whole 
application bundle does sound like the best way, especially if I can 
include Pygame and deps in the app bundle. No wanky installation of 
anything for the end user.

Things have changed, and I've not got Civil running yet. Gimme a while 
to play :)

>
> How does this sound? Would make packaging dead simple although the
> FSSTND/LSB isn't really honored anymore. :) Being standards compliant
> hasn't really given any benefits to us, and all games do the same 
> anyway,
> so why couldn't we?
>
> I take silence as a "Ya man, go ahead!"... ;)

Well, I've got a feeling OS X will have it's own one, so you're 
basically making an installer for non existent windows users and maybe 
annoying linux ones? Not sure, basically :)

My feeling is, if it's not inclusive for all platforms, we're making 
work for ourselves. Linux is the primary platform so if we're making 
things easier for that...

G

Or, there is a final and *very* easy solution to the whole thing. Just
distribute a tar.gz/zip of the whole CVS archive and tell the user to
simply unpack it in a suitable location. Then just run the "binaries" in
the root directory. Would have simple and self contained distribution
tree.

I could if needed hack up a simple Pygame based little dialog that could
be used to ask the player wether shortcuts (Win) or scripts in /usr/bin
should be created (what does OSX use?). This one could be a setup.py or
install.py in the root directory which the user could be recommended to
run.

How does this sound? Would make packaging dead simple although the
FSSTND/LSB isn't really honored anymore. :) Being standards compliant
hasn't really given any benefits to us, and all games do the same anyway,
so why couldn't we?

I take silence as a "Ya man, go ahead!"... ;)

-- 
  +++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++
                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Jan Ekholm wrote:

>On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Jan Ekholm wrote:
>
>>
>>I had a quick shot at converting to distutils, and it doesn't seem to be
>>roo hard. The main thing can be converted fairly easily, and it seems that
>>not too much will break. The C modules are build from a master setup.py
>>script and a lot of autoconf/make cruft can be removed.
>
>Seems everything is working pretty ok, except for one small thing. I can't
>seem to figure out how to tell the main scripts where data got installed!
>Really annoying and there doesn't seem to be any proper way of doing it
>either... Will see what can be done.

According to the Pythonian support folks this can't be done. EOD. So much
for using distutils then... :(

There are a few options:

1. use autotools

2. use distutils and hack it to work

3. ignore windows totally, it's the most unstandard and hard to support
OS anyway.

4. write an own small installer, how hard can that really be? Maybe
Pygame-based... :)

5. don't really release ever, those who want to play can hack it to work,
the world doesn't really want us to release anything.

-- 
  +++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++
                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Jan Ekholm wrote:

>
>I had a quick shot at converting to distutils, and it doesn't seem to be
>roo hard. The main thing can be converted fairly easily, and it seems that
>not too much will break. The C modules are build from a master setup.py
>script and a lot of autoconf/make cruft can be removed.

Seems everything is working pretty ok, except for one small thing. I can't
seem to figure out how to tell the main scripts where data got installed!
Really annoying and there doesn't seem to be any proper way of doing it
either... Will see what can be done.

-- 
  And it came to pass that in time the Great God Om spake unto Brutha,
    the Chosen One: "Psst!"
                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

I had a quick shot at converting to distutils, and it doesn't seem to be
roo hard. The main thing can be converted fairly easily, and it seems that
not too much will break. The C modules are build from a master setup.py
script and a lot of autoconf/make cruft can be removed.

An RPM can also be built (at least one my Debian system :) but I think
it's better to build these "natively" on some Suse/Mandrake/Fedora system.
I think we get a Windows .exe installer of some sort too, but that must be
done on a Windows machine.

Debs shouldn't be too hard to build either, it requires some tuning to
debian/rules so that it installs the stuff into the directory that the deb
build process expects.

-- 

             Gravity is a habit that is hard to shake off.
                                              -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

Hi,

Does anyone have any objections against trying to use distutils as the
build/install system instead of autoconf/make? Civil is a big and grown up
beast by now, so it won't be trivial to try to convince distutils to take
over it, but that would also remove a big hurdle for many users
(especially Windowsians that don't want to install Cygwin).

What do you think?

-- 
  And it came to pass that in time the Great God Om spake unto Brutha,
    the Chosen One: "Psst!"
                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

When I got back, I double checked and you were correct, here it is.  http://www.trydownloading.com/ref44.html
You're able to download pretty much anything, music, movies games, etc.  I was able to find at least 76 of my favorite CD's
You should see how many they have in there - its crazy.
They show you how to burn all the stuff you want to CD.
I'm having a quick bite to eat going overthe movie section at the moment, theres downloads in here to burn, movies I mean, that are still in theaters - talk about awsome.
See you this weekend.

Georgette

----957448998768263647----

Yep, the subject says it all. I thought it was time to do a release of
Civil so here we have 0.83. There are lots of broken stuff, but at least
there is something newer to download than the ancient 0.82 versions. I'll
do debs etc when I get back from the UK (going to have a look at what
Korruptor's up to).

Have fun,
   Chakie
-- 

  That's right," he said. "We're philosophers. We think, therefore we am.
                                             -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods