civil-devel Mailing List for Civil

> I think the whole setup part should be fully theme agnostic. Maybe a
> generic "hey ho, hey ho, off to war we go" theme, but nothing specific.

Yup, ok. If it saves code that's a good thing. I'll have to re-think my 
plans a little and concentrate on something good for the agnositc 
version. Not a prob...

> Comments?

I'll be doing the website this weekend, so I've got a little more time 
to think about what I want for the theme agnostic front end. With luck 
it may get launched tomorrow...

G

-- 
   "A computer lets you make mistakes faster than any invention in human 
history -- with the possible exception of tequila."
      -- Unknown Usenet Poster
--

Hi,

After playing some with the themability and thinking about it some more,
I've come up with an idea. It's just an idea, so mild flaming is ok where
appropriate.

I think the whole setup part should be fully theme agnostic. Maybe a
generic "hey ho, hey ho, off to war we go" theme, but nothing specific.
Bothe the server and client would use this hey ho theme for all setup. The
server player would have one extra setting to make when creating a new
game: the scenario theater. That setting would be the only theme specific
setting in the setup part.

Then when the main game is started the actual theme kicks in. This has the
benefit that the setup part is kept basically as it is now (the code, that
is), and there is really very little needed extra complexity elsewhere.

Comments?

-- 
  The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to.
                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Marcus Alanen wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Korruptor wrote:
>
>> Given the theming nature of Civil I'm intent on re-doing the website. 
>> I'm thinking of the tagline "Civil - Open Source Wargming" to replace 
>> the current one, and I'm going to move over to an XHTML site instead of 
>> the current HTML 4.0 one we have.
>> 
>> Anyone have a problem with this?
>
>Nope, perhaps "open source strategy wargaming", so as not to attract 
>lot's of action dudes? Or is it too pompous?-)

I think the word "wargaming" already implies the strategy part? But I
don't really mind.

>btw Chakie, I'm at the 3rd Linux Symposium in Helsinki today & 
>tomorrow. Maddog is here as well, haven't talked to him tho, I seem to 
>remember you know him?

Yeah, I've met him a few times. Last year when he was here we shared a
room when I slept over in Helsinki (hmm, that *does* sound a bit bad :)...
Give him regards from me if you chat with him.

-- 
          "Yes, bugger all that." said Nanny. "Let's curse somebody."
                                            -- Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters

> scalawag (SKAL-uh-wag) noun, also scallywag or scallawag
>
>    1. A rascal.

Heh, see that's the way we use it over here. Normally something a 
Mother will call a child. Say it over the age of 12 and you're liable 
to get funny looks... ;)

>    2. In US history, a white Southerner who acted in support of the
>       Reconstruction after the Civil War.

Now that's something I didn't know. :)

G

--
"The probability of someone watching you is proportional to the 
stupidity of your action."
--

I receive these daily; today's word sounded interesting for this list 
so I thought I'd share it with you. Although perhaps english-speaking 
friends already know it.

Marcus

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 00:02:15 -0500
From: Wordsmith <ws...@wo...>
To: lin...@wo...
Subject: A.Word.A.Day--scalawag

scalawag (SKAL-uh-wag) noun, also scallywag or scallawag

   1. A rascal.

   2. In US history, a white Southerner who acted in support of the
      Reconstruction after the Civil War.

[Of unknown origin.]

  "But too often, critics say, the law is part of the problem. Past and
   present police officers have been linked to kidnappings. When Mr.
   Marohombsar was killed, a local police officer was among those found in
   his hideout. 'There are scalawags in the police who are involved in
   kidnapping,' said Col. Alan Purisima, Pacer's chief."
   Wayne Arnold and Carlos H. Conde; In Manila, Kidnapping as a Business
   Expense; The New York Times; Jan 28, 2003.

  "Directors Eric Bergeron and Don Paul have been meticulous in re-creating
   the feel of the Road movies and enhancing them with the boundless magic
   of animation. Their scalawags are a pair of con artists called Tulio
   (Kevin Kline) and Miguel (Kenneth Branagh)."
   Louis B. Hobson; El Dorado is a Gem; The Calgary Sun (Canada); Mar 31,
   2000.

This week's theme: words to describe people.

Sponsored by Think Right Now! International: Depressed? Anxious? Unmotivated?
If your willpower & persistence always fizzle out, see the new paradigm in
personal growth. http://mcssl.com/app/adtrack.asp?AdID=17954

AND
VOCABULARY BOOSTER CD helps students improve grades & raise SAT scores.
Just listen & learn. Guaranteed results. http://www.InHomeTutoring.com/vbcd.html

............................................................................
I like to believe that people in the long run are going to do more to
promote peace than our governments. Indeed, I think that people want peace
so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way
and let them have it. -Dwight D. Eisenhower, U.S. general and 34th
president (1890-1969)

Feeling information overload? Sign off a few mailing lists. If you wish
to unsubscribe from AWAD, send a blank message to ws...@wo... with
the word unsubscribe in the subject line of your message. Of course, we'd
rather you stay with us. After all, it is only a `word' a day. (-:

Pronunciation:
http://wordsmith.org/words/scalawag.wav
http://wordsmith.org/words/scalawag.ram

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Korruptor wrote:

> Given the theming nature of Civil I'm intent on re-doing the website. 
> I'm thinking of the tagline "Civil - Open Source Wargming" to replace 
> the current one, and I'm going to move over to an XHTML site instead of 
> the current HTML 4.0 one we have.
> 
> Anyone have a problem with this?

Nope, perhaps "open source strategy wargaming", so as not to attract 
lot's of action dudes? Or is it too pompous?-)

btw Chakie, I'm at the 3rd Linux Symposium in Helsinki today & 
tomorrow. Maddog is here as well, haven't talked to him tho, I seem to 
remember you know him?

>
> Clean and simple. /me likes.

Do you think I should wait for 0.82 before unveiling the site? Or just 
launch it when it's done?

G

--
   "As soon as I find the right small group of girls, the seven
    or eight women who are right for me, my wandering days are
    OVER buddy! "
     -- Cat, Parallel Universe
--

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Korruptor wrote:

>>> Anyone have a problem with this?
>>
>> It's fine by me. :)
>
>Great. It'll have a lot less GFX on it, and probably look a little like 
>my site does atm, as I like the style! :-) Dunno if this will get done 
>at the weekend or not...

Clean and simple. /me likes.

--
             In the Beginning it was a nice day.
                           -- Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens
			   

> Well, I'd like it to be a small dialog, more like a splash, but that 
> can't
> really be done in a good way. I don't think Pygame allows us to 
> recreate
> the toplevle surface? I mean, we'd first init a 320x200 surface, then
> change that to the full 1024x768 surface when the actual game starts?

Easier to init to 1024x768 and blit a surface to the center of that.

> And what if the player wants to run fullscreen immediately? It's a 
> game,
> after all. :) I think the best is to have the *resolution* fixed at
> 1024x768, and if needed make the actual gfx smaller and *center* it on 
> the
> full display.

Ah, should have read that bit before typing! :)

> I hope you understand what I'm rambling about...

Yup, I'll have a think and see what I can come up with...

G

--
  "Researchers have discovered that chocolate produces some of
   the same reactions in the brain as marijuana. The researchers
   also discovered other simularities between the two but they
   can't remember what they are."
        - Matt Laver on NBC's Today show
--

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Korruptor wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Given the theming nature of Civil I'm intent on re-doing the website. 
>I'm thinking of the tagline "Civil - Open Source Wargming" to replace 
>the current one, and I'm going to move over to an XHTML site instead of 
>the current HTML 4.0 one we have.
>
>Anyone have a problem with this?

It's fine by me. :)

-- 
  The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to.
                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Korruptor wrote:

>> Could you please do something that we can use as a background for the
>> theme/theatre selector? It would be shown first, before the first 
>> dialog
>> that is seen today, so it should be fairly general and somehow 
>> represent
>> the themability of the game. I plan on just putting up a few 
>> checkboxes,
>> one for each installed theme, which allow the player to select what to
>> play, and then buttons for "Ok" and "Quit".
>
>Yeah, sure. This isn't a problem. Does it need to be fullscreen? Or 
>just a little dialog style window thing?

Well, I'd like it to be a small dialog, more like a splash, but that can't
really be done in a good way. I don't think Pygame allows us to recreate
the toplevle surface? I mean, we'd first init a 320x200 surface, then
change that to the full 1024x768 surface when the actual game starts?

And what if the player wants to run fullscreen immediately? It's a game,
after all. :) I think the best is to have the *resolution* fixed at
1024x768, and if needed make the actual gfx smaller and *center* it on the
full display.

I hope you understand what I'm rambling about...

>> I think the client that awaits for the server player to send him/her
>> scenario data would also be stuck with this theme agnostic environment,
>> *or* then the server sends a little additions string with the current
>> theme name, and then the client can init that theme.
>
>String idea sounds good...

Ok, that can be implemented pretty easily.

-- 
  The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to.
                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

Hi,

Given the theming nature of Civil I'm intent on re-doing the website. 
I'm thinking of the tagline "Civil - Open Source Wargming" to replace 
the current one, and I'm going to move over to an XHTML site instead of 
the current HTML 4.0 one we have.

Anyone have a problem with this?

G

--
   "Girl walks into a bar and asks for a double entendre...
    So the barman gave her one!"
       -- Unknown
--

> Could you please do something that we can use as a background for the
> theme/theatre selector? It would be shown first, before the first 
> dialog
> that is seen today, so it should be fairly general and somehow 
> represent
> the themability of the game. I plan on just putting up a few 
> checkboxes,
> one for each installed theme, which allow the player to select what to
> play, and then buttons for "Ok" and "Quit".

Yeah, sure. This isn't a problem. Does it need to be fullscreen? Or 
just a little dialog style window thing?

> I think the client that awaits for the server player to send him/her
> scenario data would also be stuck with this theme agnostic environment,
> *or* then the server sends a little additions string with the current
> theme name, and then the client can init that theme.

String idea sounds good...

G

--
"My girlfriend always laughs during sex - no matter what she's reading."
  -- Steve Jobs
--

> Btw, I'd like to get in the "civil war" thingie somewhere in the theme
> name, as it's not that unthinkable to some day have a theme from the US
> independence war. That would give us:
>
> 	.../us-civil/...
> 	.../us-independence/...
>
> Just going .../us/... would limit us to only one possible theme in the
> area.
>
> what do you think? Are the dirs I mentioned in the previous mail ok?

Actually, that's an important point. us-civil makes a lot more sense...

G


--
"I sense much NT in you! NT leads to Blue Screen. Blue Screen leads to 
downtime, downtime leads to suffering...  NT is the path to the 
darkside!"
     -- Author: Unknown Unix Jedi
--

Gareth,

Could you please do something that we can use as a background for the
theme/theatre selector? It would be shown first, before the first dialog
that is seen today, so it should be fairly general and somehow represent
the themability of the game. I plan on just putting up a few checkboxes,
one for each installed theme, which allow the player to select what to
play, and then buttons for "Ok" and "Quit".

I think the client that awaits for the server player to send him/her
scenario data would also be stuck with this theme agnostic environment,
*or* then the server sends a little additions string with the current
theme name, and then the client can init that theme.

Or something...

-- 
  The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to.
                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Marcus Alanen wrote:

>On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Jan Ekholm wrote:
>
>> Do we still need to cache what a unit sees and what it doesn't see? I
>
>I'm a tad unsure about removing it.. We might be in for a surprise 
>with lots of units. If it works, why remove it?-)

It's a hell of a lot of work to keep it up to date. Basically it caches
something that we can get almost as fast (if not faster) anyway. For
simplicity I do think we could keep a flag "visible" that tells wether the
current player sees the unit (for use when blitting the units, updated
once every action step), the rest of visibility checks can be done
when needed.

-- 
  The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to.
                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Jan Ekholm wrote:

> Do we still need to cache what a unit sees and what it doesn't see? I

I'm a tad unsure about removing it.. We might be in for a surprise 
with lots of units. If it works, why remove it?-)

> All simplifications are good, and it will also free a few kB:s of memory,
> so people can't accuse us of "adding bloat all the time".

Hardly a big deal, given all the graphics. (Nice gfx, tho, nothing 
wrong with that... ;-D)

> We can also get rid of the asynchronous LOS, as all clients (also the AI)
> have access to quick LOS.

Yeah, probably OK. We're not making a game which requires "untrusted" 
clients.

Marcus

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Korruptor wrote:

>> How does this sound? Korruptor? The directory layout directly affects 
>> what
>> you do, to a lesser extent what I do.
>
>That's fine chakie. I'll reorder the directories friday so you can see 
>if anything's broke come the weekend. :)

I can do the reordering too. It's just a matter of a little for-loop and
the files are moved.

Btw, I'd like to get in the "civil war" thingie somewhere in the theme
name, as it's not that unthinkable to some day have a theme from the US
independence war. That would give us:

	.../us-civil/...
	.../us-independence/...

Just going .../us/... would limit us to only one possible theme in the
area.

what do you think? Are the dirs I mentioned in the previous mail ok?

-- 

   Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.
                                            -- Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms

> How does this sound? Korruptor? The directory layout directly affects 
> what
> you do, to a lesser extent what I do.

That's fine chakie. I'll reorder the directories friday so you can see 
if anything's broke come the weekend. :)

G

--
  "A pub - ahh yes. A meeting place where people attempt to
   achieve advanced states of mental incompetence, by the
   repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
   -- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E1
-- 

> I'd say that you start adding theme stuff as needed. As long as it's 
> only
> gfx it's not going to be too hard to make the code adapt. It'll mostly 
> be
> new directories and moved files, as well as some path changes. At it's
> simplest it's just an added path prefix in properties.py.
>
> Go ahead!

Ok, so first step would be to move all existing GFX into a sub dir and 
amend properties.py appropriately. Unfortunately, I can't test what I 
do against the code, so don't yell if I break it all... ;-)

I'll probably do this over the weekend and commit then. I'll go for 
./us/... for the current batch. However, terrains will be shared, so 
there's nothing to change there. The dir will just see an influx of new 
terrain types where required...


>> In addition, did we reach a final resolution on how to handle the GFX?
>> Prefixes and a modified directory structure? If so, how shall I 
>> proceed
>> with setting this up without screwing everything up?
>
> I think we do subdirs unless there's some compelling reason not to do 
> it
> that way?

Fine, that way's good...

>> I'm keen to get involved in this as I need to brush up my Photoshop
>> skills a tad, been coding for too long... Just point me in a direction
>> fellas...
>
> /me pushes Korruptor.

:)

Last thing, we going for Napoleonic then?

G

--
"Microsoft is like Islam -- it is unwise to criticise either in print."
       - Anonymous XBox Developer, Edge #102, Pg.9
--

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Korruptor wrote:

>Ok,
>
>Discussion kinda stopped short. I'm working on the assumption that 
>we're go for themes, although at the risk of never releasing 0.82. 
>What's people's preference here? Finish 0.82 and let me do my thing to 
>the side, creating minimal impact as I go? Or do the initial framework 
>stuff now and let me produce some GFX as and when?

I'd say that you start adding theme stuff as needed. As long as it's only
gfx it's not going to be too hard to make the code adapt. It'll mostly be
new directories and moved files, as well as some path changes. At it's
simplest it's just an added path prefix in properties.py.

Go ahead!

>In addition, did we reach a final resolution on how to handle the GFX? 
>Prefixes and a modified directory structure? If so, how shall I proceed 
>with setting this up without screwing everything up?

I think we do subdirs unless there's some compelling reason not to do it
that way?

>I'm keen to get involved in this as I need to brush up my Photoshop 
>skills a tad, been coding for too long... Just point me in a direction 
>fellas...

/me pushes Korruptor.

-- 
  Om began to feel the acute depression that steals over every realist
       in the presence of an optimist.
                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

Ok,

Discussion kinda stopped short. I'm working on the assumption that 
we're go for themes, although at the risk of never releasing 0.82. 
What's people's preference here? Finish 0.82 and let me do my thing to 
the side, creating minimal impact as I go? Or do the initial framework 
stuff now and let me produce some GFX as and when?

In addition, did we reach a final resolution on how to handle the GFX? 
Prefixes and a modified directory structure? If so, how shall I proceed 
with setting this up without screwing everything up?

I'm keen to get involved in this as I need to brush up my Photoshop 
skills a tad, been coding for too long... Just point me in a direction 
fellas...

G

--
"Capital punishment turns the state into a murderer. But imprisonment 
turns the state into a gay dungeon-master."
     -- Rev. Jesse Jackson
--

Quick idea...

Do we still need to cache what a unit sees and what it doesn't see? I
mean, a LOS check from a unit to another location is "fast enough", so we
could get rid of the large and failure prone "I see you, you see me" maps.
All simplifications are good, and it will also free a few kB:s of memory,
so people can't accuse us of "adding bloat all the time".


We can also get rid of the asynchronous LOS, as all clients (also the AI)
have access to quick LOS.


-- 
  Om began to feel the acute depression that steals over every realist
       in the presence of an optimist.
                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

> Actually, in my area we have a very real and very serious problem
> with deer. Due to a lack of natural predators our deer population is
> about 4 times greater then what the environment can support. They
> are also spread Lyme disease (its carried by the Deer Ticks). My
> 11 year old had to take antibiotics for 13 weeks when she caught it
> last fall. My next door neighbor caught it just from cutting his

Sorry to hear that. We have a similar problem with Foxes and rats.=20
However, there's humane ways to kill them. Which is beside the point. :)

> culling a night to avoid animal rights protesters. The meat from the
> deer is collected and donated to homeless shelters.

At least something good is coming of the situation then.

> Is there an analogy in this to the Iraq situation? I'm not drawing one
> myself. I'm just saying that around here deer are regarded not so much
> as "cute and innocent" a'la Bambi but as more like disease spreading
> rats with antlers.

I think the analogy started about two posts earlier, but hey. I know=20
more about Deer than I did 11 hours ago, which is always a good thing!=20=

:)

>> Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to tune my Accordion. I've got a
>> gig tonight. :)
>>
>
> Touch=E9 :) Can you play me a polka?

No, far too bohemian for my tastes, and besides, the Polka is Czech.=20
The English are more likely to use an accordion for Morris dancing.=20
I'll leave you to do the Google, suffice to say it's possibly the most=20=

ridiculous antic a grown man can legally perform in Europe. And that's=20=

for a slim definition of 'legal'. Personally I'd suggest it goes=20
against public decency by-laws, but that's just me.

I'll stick to my Irish heritage on this one. At least the drums cover=20
up the Accordion. In most instances.

G

--
    "Nothing says, 'Superpower' like bombing a country that is poor
     and hungry." -- Ken Brush
--

On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Lawrence J. Levin wrote:

>Korruptor wrote:
>
>> 
>> Re: Should we?! -- Desperately trying to find a theater of war that
>> doesn't have some dodgy politics behind it. ;-)  > 
>> 
>> If someone picks a theatre, I'll start researching...

>Face it... they all have dodgy politics. I dug out my copy of the

Well, I didn't really mean that we should pick something that hasn't
*been* dodgy, but something that now *isn't* dodgy. Most countries have
learned that silly wars aren't really needed. Some still haven't learned,
such as Russia, Israel & neigbours, some African countries and the US. I
did mean modern time, not the past. Everyone has done something dodgy in
the past.

>"Dictionary of War" (1999 edition) which covers everything from the
>better known events like World War II to fascinating out of the way 
>events like Flammock's Rebellion (England 1497), the Trung Sisters'
>Rebellion (Vietnam AD 39-43), and the Revolt of the Grachi (Rome,
>133 BC). There is no such thing as a "100% clean war". Out of
>curiosity I looked up the Finnish Civil War that Jan mentioned.
>It has two claims to fame. One is that its per-capita fatality rate
>is second only to the U.S. Civil War (1% of population over a 2 year
>span for the Finns versus 2% over a 4 year span for U.S.). The other
>is that it has the all-time highest fatality rate due to war crimes: 
>64% of the deaths were due to execution, murder, or starvation of 
>prisoners.

Oh, I never said that the war was nice. No, it was bloody, ugly and in
practice divided the country all the way until WW2 united it again against
a common foe. The death camps were horrible (actually, I did my military
service at one of the old camps that has been converted into a military
base). Personally I think our civil war was a sad thing, and it was very
dumb of the "winners" to be as brutal as they were. It's nothing nobody
would be proud of.

But the issue is that we don't do stuff like that anymore. There is very
little need in a modern world to start a campaign against another nation.
I do however think that the US aiding one of the parties in the
Afghanistani civil war was justified, but it's the upcoming war on Iraq
that people don't like. 

>The messiest wars are always the civil wars. That's because they tend
>to fought by amateurs with personal grudges. Your best bet for a 
>"clean" war is something (a) fought by true professionals (i.e., paid
>enough that looting and booty are not a motive) and (b) in the modern 
>era with the its "law of war" and Geneva Convention. 

True, and those people usually have to live with one another once the war
is over. 

>How about the
>Korean War? Are amphibious operations and tactical air support too
>much to handle? 

We have no support at all for air units. Amphibious operations could work
(landing crafts) with some kind of extra "craft" unit that can carry other
units, but it also requires extra custom code.

>An alternative might be the Peloponnesian Wars and
>the Greek-Persian Wars (460-445 BC). These too, however, had a 
>maritime component (not to mention a fair number of prisoners
>being executed).

Yup, could be possible to do. I'm not too concerned about crimes in the
past, we can assume mankind has learned from them, I'm convered about war
crimes that take place today, those where mankind has not learned anything
at all. It is outright stupid to think that a war is fought without any
war crimes, killed innocent civilians etc in a modern war. Even the
"precision bombings" of the modern US army manage to hit a few weddings
every now and then.


>   "WORRYING ABOUT GOING TO WAR WITHOUT THE FRENCH IS LIKE WORRYING
>    ABOUT GOING DEER HUNTING WITHOUT YOUR ACCORDION"....

Heh, maybe the French have learned that not going to war at all is the
best thing to do? But you are right in that many European countries are
*very* reluctant to join for instance UN peace operations, which I think
is a shame. It can probably be attributed to the fact that European soil
has seen a few of the the bloodiest wars during the last 100 years, and
that scares people a great deal. US soil hasn't seen a war since the civil
war, so nobody remembers the ruined cities, mass graves, battlefields etc,
except as stories in a history book.

-- 

 He says gods like to see an atheist around. Gives them something to aim at.
                                            -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods