logilogi-list Mailing List for LogiLogi - Software Libre for the Web (Page 10)

I just updated the svn-version of Manta to do search via Xapian, a
very reliable search-lib...

It needs 

apt-get install libxapian15 libxapian-ruby1.8 (on ubuntu)

A rake db:migrate & a rake index:redo

Then it should work...

Will update the running version some time the coming days & also make
it single-language (& maybe also set up the other language versions,
at least Spanish and Dutch),

Wybo

> Hi Wybo,
> 
> Short, about my presentation, everything went really great, this time
> I'll write about it and upload the video :)

Ok, looking forwardto the video; at least the slides looked superb.

> Sorry I've been offline and didn't sent response for your mails, but I
> haven't been doing mail in the last days.

np., happens, we're all offline sometimes...

> > Anyway, there's been lots of stuff going on, eventhough there was not
> > much on the list lately; LL will be user-friendly & will be good,
>
> Yes it has, and I'll comment on what I've been up to shortly. Not only
> the conference where I got to know people from the selfproject,
> moodle, and others, but also about a big project most likely coming in
> soon :)

:)

> I also talk to Jon Hall, it's really all an experience to talk to
> people like him. I commented to him about LogiLogi and about our views
> of SAAS and how the libre community could jump in this field, and why
> I think it's important to do this too. He was worry about privacy. We
> actually didn't talked much, but I invited him to debate over
> LogiLogi, but I think this is unlikely, even though he do seems to use
> browsers :)

Cool :) And indeed privacy is an issue, though I think for the web
openness is going to be more important & will (for me) overrule where
they conflict.

(Still for really personall stuff like e-mail-adresses we still need a
solution (esp when the db is for download), though I think encryption
goes a long way...)

> I also got in touch with people that is working much more on the same
> path of LL, knowledge and education, but mostly got in touch with them
> and will get together to talk later on.

Cool, you're a real ambassador :)

> About the gettext, I might get down to it, but maybe it's best if I do
> the repetitive mechanical part of adding _() to all text that will
> need to be translated and you (or miguel) could integrate the logical
> part. But we'll see...

How far are you yet ?

I committed gettext-support yesterday evening.

> The Free Software conferences got me trapped and didn't do much apart
> from it the last 3 days, it was a great experience and meet great
> people.

:) Conferences are just great & interesting :)

Wybo

> > Then, they can click a primary tag, giving them the url /Aristotle.
> > They then will see a new, smaller cloud, below the url, on the right.
> > In this cloud the context-tags are shown (History and Life in this
> > example). Below the url on the left are snippets of all logis that
> > have Aristotle as their primary tag, sorted by their rating (for the
> > user's selected peergroup). Visitors can click on one immediately.
> 
> Great, great, great! We are now really diving into the web2.0 style,
> and we will make it feel like we are diving into a knowledge tree...
> great!

:)

> I already have sketchs I show you about this, and will try to get
> better ones and publish them.

They need not be perfect, so commit them. I will alo see if I can find
time to add one, as I've got a possible design in my head :)

> > will also scale very well... (the only moderately slow thing will be
> > the generation of the clouds).
> 
> about tag clouds, I wanted to introduce an idea that came up from a
> current layout error we have on the layout, which I think it's
> brilliant. Everybody talks about tag-clouds, but there is no much
> graphical representation of a cloud arround, but, if we make the tags
> overlap (like in the nav-tree on FF) the tag cloud will actually look
> like a cloud, and I think it could look really good... This should be
> tags with different tones of sky-blue and

Couldyou add a svn sketchup of thiss ? as for me the cloud looks like
a normal cloud in FF.

(also a skeptical side-note; that we call tag-cloud clouds does not 
mean that a cloud that looks more like a reallife cloud would be a 
better cloud...)

> > PS: Yup it will be primary-tag first, instead of primary tag last, as
> > was currently the case in the url & in the old version of LogiLogi. I
> > was still thinking about it the other way when we chatted yesterday
> > Bruno, but I guess some things you said, changed my mind...
> 
> Ok, I think if we get tags always ordered in same way it will do, but
> also I think having content in first place is the way to go, so I
> fully agree with your move.

Good & happy thet you agree. I wil make astart with the implementation
today. The first move will be to move search from Ferret (unstable &
capable of taking down the whole rails-app) to Xapian (fast, stable,
easy & feature-rich).

> I'd also would like to ask you the following. I'd like to make a
> complete proposal of UI for us to get down to work on for the next big
> changes. I still don't know in all what this "big changes" will be,
> and we are still modeling the new elements that we'll have on the
> interface. What I'm asking is, that we trace the needs in a schematic
> way (maybe in the wiki) and then I will work on a whole proposal of
> adapting the needs and express them in the best usable way (I can)
> possible. With this I'm not saying that you or anybody can't make
> their proposals, but instead I'm asking for the chance of building a
> proposal that takes all parts in count for a final integrated result.
> If we focus all on the UI design I think we are wasting power, but
> then, it's good that all are multidisciplinary, like me learning Ruby,
> but maybe this is not the time for this.

In principle I do agree with this, and I think it is a good idea to
make a lit of all needed parts on the wiki (as you started with).

I will however make some small proposals :)

> In this thinking path, I was making sketches (that I will commit)
> about the navigation and I come up with the idea of getting the
> tree-navigation to the navigation bar and mix them all up, and I think
> this ends up being much more intuitive and self explaining than it was
> before. I'm willing to do similar re-designs for other parts and so
> improve usability.

Sounds good. Especially doing it piece-wise, as in that way we can
update the site bit by bit and not lose too much time & work on
redoing bits that are currently reasonable or good (like for example 
imho the top with the tabs & the logo).

So go ahead, and show us your svg's,

Wybo

> We'll be in touch.
> 
> Greetings.
> 
> -- 
> Bruno

> Short, about my presentation, everything went really great, this time
> I'll write about it and upload the video :)

Great that all went well!

& Indeed conferences are great fun, very informing & creative, and
also inspiring :)

> Sorry I've been offline and didn't sent response for your mails, but I
> haven't been doing mail in the last days.

np., I'm also for this morning only going to respond to a small bit,
to get this work done today...

> About the gettext, I might get down to it, but maybe it's best if I do
> the repetitive mechanical part of adding _() to all text that will
> need to be translated and you (or miguel) could integrate the logical
> part. But we'll see...

Excellent proposal. I will add the logical part now, today & commit it.
If you add the _()'s, we could have gettext support by this evening.

> The Free Software conferences got me trapped and didn't do much apart
> from it the last 3 days, it was a great experience and meet great
> people.

:)

Wybo

> laterz
> 
> -- 
> Bruno

Hi Wybo,

Short, about my presentation, everything went really great, this time
I'll write about it and upload the video :)

Sorry I've been offline and didn't sent response for your mails, but I
haven't been doing mail in the last days.

On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> I will be back in 3 days. I'll be visiting a friend.
>
> On the chat Bruno and I discussed the proposal for the simplification
> of the tags, and from what I've heard he seems to agree. Miguel is
> away but might be home some time the coming day, and if one of the
> other's still has some objections or remarks regarding the
> simplification of the tags, plz post them before sunday...
>
Sorry I didn't reply before, I've just sent in my reply.

> As then I will start implementing the move...
>
> Also if someone still has non-english logi's on the running version,
> save them somewhere, as the running version is going to move to
> English then too... (will set up other languages again shortly after
> it, and I will make a local backup of the non-english logis too, so
> they can be put back, but just in case...)
>
> Anyway, there's been lots of stuff going on, eventhough there was not
> much on the list lately; LL will be user-friendly & will be good,
>
Yes it has, and I'll comment on what I've been up to shortly. Not only
the conference where I got to know people from the selfproject,
moodle, and others, but also about a big project most likely coming in
soon :)

I also talk to Jon Hall, it's really all an experience to talk to
people like him. I commented to him about LogiLogi and about our views
of SAAS and how the libre community could jump in this field, and why
I think it's important to do this too. He was worry about privacy. We
actually didn't talked much, but I invited him to debate over
LogiLogi, but I think this is unlikely, even though he do seems to use
browsers :)

I also got in touch with people that is working much more on the same
path of LL, knowledge and education, but mostly got in touch with them
and will get together to talk later on.

> Wybo
>
> PS: Bruno: if you want you can do the gettext support, otherwise I
> will do it when I'm back...
>

About the gettext, I might get down to it, but maybe it's best if I do
the repetitive mechanical part of adding _() to all text that will
need to be translated and you (or miguel) could integrate the logical
part. But we'll see...

The Free Software conferences got me trapped and didn't do much apart
from it the last 3 days, it was a great experience and meet great
people.

laterz

-- 
Bruno

Wybo,

On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> Then, they can click a primary tag, giving them the url /Aristotle.
> They then will see a new, smaller cloud, below the url, on the right.
> In this cloud the context-tags are shown (History and Life in this
> example). Below the url on the left are snippets of all logis that
> have Aristotle as their primary tag, sorted by their rating (for the
> user's selected peergroup). Visitors can click on one immediately.
>

Great, great, great! We are now really diving into the web2.0 style,
and we will make it feel like we are diving into a knowledge tree...
great!

I already have sketchs I show you about this, and will try to get
better ones and publish them.

>
> To make this even stronger, also when adding links to a logi, by
> default the context tags of the logi being added are already filled in
> for the new link. So a link from Aristotle, History to Socrates, will,
> without user-interaction be to Socrates, History. This; be it that it
> is in reversed tag-order now, was something that really worked well in
> the old version of LogiLogi, but now, with easy navigation it will
> work even better!
>

I'm glad we are taking a step back! we'll have more impulse to jump
further!!! :)

> will also scale very well... (the only moderately slow thing will be
> the generation of the clouds).

about tag clouds, I wanted to introduce an idea that came up from a
current layout error we have on the layout, which I think it's
brilliant. Everybody talks about tag-clouds, but there is no much
graphical representation of a cloud arround, but, if we make the tags
overlap (like in the nav-tree on FF) the tag cloud will actually look
like a cloud, and I think it could look really good... This should be
tags with different tones of sky-blue and

>
> Fully implementing & testing this proposal in the back-end will take,
> I think between 1 and 2 weeks, so not too bad either.
>
> I will do some more pondering about it, but I was just wondering what
> you pplz (Bruno, Miguel & the others) think of it...
>
> Wybo
>
> PS: Yup it will be primary-tag first, instead of primary tag last, as
> was currently the case in the url & in the old version of LogiLogi. I
> was still thinking about it the other way when we chatted yesterday
> Bruno, but I guess some things you said, changed my mind...
>

Ok, I think if we get tags always ordered in same way it will do, but
also I think having content in first place is the way to go, so I
fully agree with your move.

I'd also would like to ask you the following. I'd like to make a
complete proposal of UI for us to get down to work on for the next big
changes. I still don't know in all what this "big changes" will be,
and we are still modeling the new elements that we'll have on the
interface. What I'm asking is, that we trace the needs in a schematic
way (maybe in the wiki) and then I will work on a whole proposal of
adapting the needs and express them in the best usable way (I can)
possible. With this I'm not saying that you or anybody can't make
their proposals, but instead I'm asking for the chance of building a
proposal that takes all parts in count for a final integrated result.
If we focus all on the UI design I think we are wasting power, but
then, it's good that all are multidisciplinary, like me learning Ruby,
but maybe this is not the time for this.

In this thinking path, I was making sketches (that I will commit)
about the navigation and I come up with the idea of getting the
tree-navigation to the navigation bar and mix them all up, and I think
this ends up being much more intuitive and self explaining than it was
before. I'm willing to do similar re-designs for other parts and so
improve usability.

We'll be in touch.

Greetings.

-- 
Bruno

>From The Desk of Gabriel Mubeid
Manager National Bank of Abu Dhabi 
Al Nakheel Branch,Opposite Sana 
Dept’l store, Oman St. 
United Arab Emirate (U.A.E.)

Let me start by introducing myself. I am Mr. Gabriel Mubeid Manager of National Bank of Abu Dhabi. Before the U.S and Iraqi war, our client a business man made a numbered fixed deposit of £25,000,000 only in my branch. Upon maturity several notices was sent to him, even during the war, Four years ago (2003). After further investigation it was also discovered that Hamada Hashem did not declare any next of kin in his official papers including the paper work of his bank deposit.   
 
And he also confided in me the last time he was at my office that no one except me knew of his deposit in my bank.Twenty five million pounds sterling is still lying in my bank and no one will ever come forward to claim it. Against this backdrop, my suggestion to you is that I will like you  foreigner to stand as the next of kin to Hamadi Hashem so that you will be able to receive his funds for our mutual benefit. We will share the fund at the ration of 60% for me while 30% for you, and then we will set aside 10% for any expenses we incur during and after the transfer.
 
Your earliest response to this letter will be appreciated.
Kind Regards
Mr. Gabriel Mubeid  

I will be back in 3 days. I'll be visiting a friend.

On the chat Bruno and I discussed the proposal for the simplification
of the tags, and from what I've heard he seems to agree. Miguel is
away but might be home some time the coming day, and if one of the
other's still has some objections or remarks regarding the
simplification of the tags, plz post them before sunday...

As then I will start implementing the move...

Also if someone still has non-english logi's on the running version,
save them somewhere, as the running version is going to move to
English then too... (will set up other languages again shortly after
it, and I will make a local backup of the non-english logis too, so
they can be put back, but just in case...)

Anyway, there's been lots of stuff going on, eventhough there was not
much on the list lately; LL will be user-friendly & will be good,

Wybo

PS: Bruno: if you want you can do the gettext support, otherwise I
will do it when I'm back...

Hi all,

Back from my travels, and back at devving, I completed the removal of
languages for logis and links yesterday. This is part of a wave to
make LogiLogi more user-friendly, partially by making it simpler (i.e.
less confusing ;-)...

I also did some cleanups in te repository, and now the docs (papers, 
presentations) are outside the trunk. You can find them here:

svn co https://logilogi.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/logilogi/docs

Besides, the rake-task to build presentations is now released as a
separate comand-line ruby-script, which can now be found here (and in
the docs repository as an external):

svn co https://logilogi.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/logilogi/tools/b-rex

---

Besides that I have been thinking about the context-content links
stuff and about how complicated it all is to unsuspecting visitors, so
we (Bruno and I) 'd like to make it simpler...

What I'd like to propose is first of all to - for now again - only
allow one tag-set per logi... Something like 'Aristotle, History, Life'

This tag-set will be the fixed location of the logi, and still multiple 
logis can have the same tag-set (that is there still are contenders).

Also still some tags are more important than others, that is we still
have content- and context-tags, but for clarity we could call them the
primary tag, and context-tags.

Users visiting LogiLogi will, on the mainpage see a cloud with all
primary tags, so at least Aristotle in this example.

Then, they can click a primary tag, giving them the url /Aristotle.
They then will see a new, smaller cloud, below the url, on the right.
In this cloud the context-tags are shown (History and Life in this
example). Below the url on the left are snippets of all logis that
have Aristotle as their primary tag, sorted by their rating (for the
user's selected peergroup). Visitors can click on one immediately.

When they like to narrow their search, they can also click one of the
context-tags in the smaller cloud (for example Life), and then a new 
query is made, showing only the logis that have Aristotle as their 
primary tag, and Life as one of their context-tags.

The 2 assumptions behind this proposal are
- that people, when looking for a page start vague, but with the
  subject, and then narrow down accordingly.
- that it's good to keep things entity oriented; to draw different
  Logi's on each subject (like Aristotle) together, and to keep things 
  easily navigatable... This should lead to interesting discussions.

In this proposal there will still be requested and received url-bars
in the logi-view, but not in the search-view. In the logi-view (also
shown when there is only one logi for a set of searched for tags &
no logi's below it in the tree) the requested url-bar will contain the
tags of the query, while the received url-bar will contain the tags
used when the logi was created (also in the order then used). Some-
times this can be more (or less, when the user typed them directly) 
tags than were in the query.

This allows new people to - when creating new logis - put things in
the same or simmilar places as earlier logis, thereby making it easier
to keep things clean than not...

To make this even stronger, also when adding links to a logi, by
default the context tags of the logi being added are already filled in
for the new link. So a link from Aristotle, History to Socrates, will,
without user-interaction be to Socrates, History. This; be it that it
is in reversed tag-order now, was something that really worked well in
the old version of LogiLogi, but now, with easy navigation it will
work even better!

An additional advantage of this approach is that we can use Ferret (or
a better search lib) for most of the searching with this method, so it
will also scale very well... (the only moderately slow thing will be
the generation of the clouds).

Fully implementing & testing this proposal in the back-end will take, 
I think between 1 and 2 weeks, so not too bad either.

I will do some more pondering about it, but I was just wondering what
you pplz (Bruno, Miguel & the others) think of it...

Wybo

PS: Yup it will be primary-tag first, instead of primary tag last, as
was currently the case in the url & in the old version of LogiLogi. I
was still thinking about it the other way when we chatted yesterday
Bruno, but I guess some things you said, changed my mind...

I just came back. Was nice in York, but good to be back too :)

> Sorry I have been a little bit absent :), I will also be absent for
> the next two weeks, but I wanted to answer some of the points in the
> last conversations.

Ok, good you mailed.

> > > He couldn't use it as he does not use a web-browser as far as I've
> > > heard/experienced. He seems to use wget to fetch his web-pages. So
> > > web2.0 apps stand no chanche with him.
> 
> He eats with his hands? forks and knifes are not really
> necessaries...(I thought in others examples like one with toilet
> paper)

Indeed, it's a bit rediculous indeed, but anyway, we are not going to
make LL work with wget :)

If he wants to miss out on the web, it's sad but he's free to do so :)

> > > I agree we should rethink, but things should fit in with splitting it
> > > up into separate services.
> >
> > certainly splitting up in services is they way to go.
> 
> I your last mail you talk about services separated into different "apps".
> Lately I have been playing a little with Django and I liked a lot this approach.
> Maybe is time to migrate LL to Django? :)

No, don't think so :) Also the apps of Django are all still integrated
on the same server if I'm correct, missing most of the point of
splitting it up.

> > > > = Ratings in other peer-groups
> > >
> > > Cool idea, we currently have this in the form of 'view', 'ratings';
> > > was for now removed from the main display for simplicity. What do
> > > others think about it ? Miguel ?
> 
> :) I will always be pro getting useful information in fewer clicks

Hm, most complaints I had about LogiLogi and OgOg was that there's too
much info on the screen at the same time so pplz don't get it.

> > > > I might be able to do the video editing tomorrow to upload it...
> > > > maybe it's too late.
> > >
> > > Looking forward to it :)
> 
> also :)

? :)

> > Well, I kind of share your vision and feel the same, but others
> > suggest me this and I now understand that it is important. I don't
> > even have a degree, of almost anything, but it's important to make
> > clear that you are a professional of the web, a philosopher, a happy
> > person, whatever you feel introduces yourself. It's about logilogi,
> > but also about you, you are talking to them, why? how did this guy got
> > here?... just my first experience...
> 
> I think you did the right thingh there :)

Ok.

> > > We might do something like removing the remaining power of the earlier
> > > vote and then add the new one. Think this is possible, you can add a
> > > low priority task for it.
> 
> Maybe logging the righting in the history would be nice. something
> like highest ranking archived linked to the version.

Might be yes. But anyway shortly I was planning on making the votes
public, so the voting becomes more of a social act.

> > > Currently not, I've been thinking about adding an auto-vote by the
> > > author when posting from a peergroup.
> >
> > that could work right.
> 
> I am pro the auto vote :)

Ok, I just added a task for it.

> About all the stuff related to the overboxes, and the user experience,
> etc. I am really Bruno's side.
> I am really forward when having Manta working smooth as the way it
> goes now, making all the editing stuff as adding remarks, links,
> modify the logi, directly into the logi page, with right button
> functionalities or something that way.

We then should have some mechanism that replaces the logi-text in the
page with a linkless version when the user wants to add links.

Also we should show a help/info message somewhere when the user is
adding a link, so he knows what and why...

But if done in a clear way I am in principle for it too.

> Big part of the users complains about that or suggested me as a
> missing functionality in he small experience I had showing LL.

Ok.

> Wybo, It was really frustrating not been able to see you, I hope the
> upcoming year it will be possible (Bruno, here they count the years
> from September to September :) ).

Indeed, I hope too. And it was unhappy indeed that we missed out on
eachother.

> I am going to a marriage in "Bretagne" (north-west of France) now for
> a week , I will be recharging-batteries in the Atlantic Ocean which I
> really miss.

Ok. Will be great fun probably, so have a good time! :)

> Back home, I think I will have some time and forces to develop for LL

Ok :)

I have my brothers birthday today (sadly he's no programmer, but
nevertheless he's still ok enough :)...), and then tomorrow I will
start with removing the multi-language-functionality.

How's things going Bruno ?

greetings,

Wybo

> Miguel

Sorry I have been a little bit absent :), I will also be absent for
the next two weeks, but I wanted to answer some of the points in the
last conversations.

My short reply to the short reply to the big-mail...

On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:48 AM, Bruno <bs...@gm...> wrote:
> My short reply to the big-mail...
>
>>> = Stallman
>
>>> I also would like to know what he said about LL itself, as a project,
>>> did he liked it?
>>
>> He couldn't use it as he does not use a web-browser as far as I've
>> heard/experienced. He seems to use wget to fetch his web-pages. So
>> web2.0 apps stand no chanche with him.
>>
> wow, that's radical! interesting... I'd love to have LL work with Lynx! :)
>

He eats with his hands? forks and knifes are not really
necessaries...(I thought in others examples like one with toilet
paper)

>>> = Roadmap
>> I agree we should rethink, but things should fit in with splitting it
>> up into separate services.
>>
>
> certainly splitting up in services is they way to go.
>

I your last mail you talk about services separated into different "apps".
Lately I have been playing a little with Django and I liked a lot this approach.
Maybe is time to migrate LL to Django? :)


>>> = Ratings in other peer-groups
>>
>> Cool idea, we currently have this in the form of 'view', 'ratings';
>> was for now removed from the main display for simplicity. What do
>> others think about it ? Miguel ?
>

:) I will always be pro getting useful information in fewer clicks

>>
>>> I might be able to do the video editing tomorrow to upload it...
>>> maybe it's too late.
>>
>> Looking forward to it :)

also :)

>
> Well, I kind of share your vision and feel the same, but others
> suggest me this and I now understand that it is important. I don't
> even have a degree, of almost anything, but it's important to make
> clear that you are a professional of the web, a philosopher, a happy
> person, whatever you feel introduces yourself. It's about logilogi,
> but also about you, you are talking to them, why? how did this guy got
> here?... just my first experience...

I think you did the right thingh there :)


>>>
>>> This logi you've just extended is certainly the best I've read
>>> explaining the need for freedom on the web. Also, I'd appreciate
>>> further reading if you have.
>>
>> There is not so much further reading. I added one to the links,
>> autonomo.us, a recently started blog on this.
>>

really interesting


>
>>
>>> = Rating over changes
>>
>> We might do something like removing the remaining power of the earlier
>> vote and then add the new one. Think this is possible, you can add a
>> low priority task for it.
>

Maybe logging the righting in the history would be nice. something
like highest ranking archived linked to the version.


>>
>>> = Writing from peergroup?
>>> Does it matter what peer-group we are in to post a logi?
>>
>> Currently not, I've been thinking about adding an auto-vote by the
>> author when posting from a peergroup.
>>
>
> that could work right.

I am pro the auto vote :)



About all the stuff related to the overboxes, and the user experience,
etc. I am really Bruno's side.
I am really forward when having Manta working smooth as the way it
goes now, making all the editing stuff as adding remarks, links,
modify the logi, directly into the logi page, with right button
functionalities or something that way.
Big part of the users complains about that or suggested me as a
missing functionality in he small experience I had showing LL.


Wybo, It was really frustrating not been able to see you, I hope the
upcoming year it will be possible (Bruno, here they count the years
from September to September :) ).
I am going to a marriage in "Bretagne" (north-west of France) now for
a week , I will be recharging-batteries in the Atlantic Ocean which I
really miss.

Back home, I think I will have some time and forces to develop for LL


Miguel


La grandeur d'un métier est avant tout d'unir les hommes; il n'est
qu'un luxe véritable et c'est celui des relations humaines. -
Saint-Exupery

Yo, I arrived in the youthostel in York today. Had a walk over the
city-walls this afternoon & visited a small museum on king Richard
the IIIrd & the murder on 2 princes he was said to have committed.
Besides that I've been thinking about a lot of things again.

I respond here to some TODO's from the Big Mail.

> == Query Vs. Dir structure This was brought back in my last
> large-mail about the new UI proposal [0] in the section "Navigation
> bar - too many tags". Basically, I tihnk we should opt for one way
> or the other but both the same, in the url and search bar and I
> believe the Query to be the most intuitive one.

This is, I think something about which I think that it is quite
central to LogiLogi. This because using tags as a dir-like-
structure allows for defining and using words in context. The
History/Aristotle -> Aristotle if History/Aristotle does not exist
- dynamic links thing. Especially for elaborations this is really 
important...

This was one of the features asked for by the philosophers, and one of
the features that seems quite usefull to me.

But indeed it & link resolving may need some more work maybe to make it better.
For example when adding links maybe the tags of the logi to which they are
added should be there by default.

---

I created a logi on separating dimensions:
http://en.logilogi.org/Logi_Logi/Separating_Dimensions=Wybo_Wiersma_17

And one on the split-up into seperate services:
http://en.logilogi.org/Logi_Logi/Separating_Services=Wybo_Wiersma_19

---

> added note: just now I came across this:
> http://www.me.com/unsupported_browser/en/ (I can't enter the site as
> it doesn't recognize iceweasel as a firefox-like browser, and it
> would not work with IE either)

Can't open it either with FF2 while it says it should be able to.

---

> [0] http://logilogi.wiki.sourceforge.net/UI+analysis - The lists
> font sizes are decreased each list-level so it's not very clear...

Indeed, they get quite small, but still readable; especially with a
few Ctrl ++'s :)

> take a look at it at the GUI editor mode... I also thought about
> starting to use LL as the development wiki, through a
> LL-dev-peergroup... what do you all think about this?

I think for now we can very well keep dev-related stuff that is 
non-philosophical on SF & on the list. As LL is more for the long
term kind of stuff.

I will do the other TODO's soon,

Wybo

> Hi has just left to the DebConf, I don't know why he didn't suscribed
> to the list yet, I'm CC him, so Fefu!  introduce yourself! :)

Yes! :)

> Everything is going fine, right now mostly the ideas and structure and
> now starting to prepare the actual talk. I'll share when I got
> something more elaborated.

Great.

> How is your stuff going?

Well, I gave the presentation on the computerlinguistic method the day
before yesterday, and it went well, or at least good enough. But as
it's not related to LL I did not report on it.

I will be doing some sightseeing in York (Old York :) tomorrow. Will
be back home on the 13th of august (my younger brothers birthday).

All well here; except for the authentic British weather :)

Wybo

> -- 
> Bruno

> How is the preparation of the presentation with Fefu going ? & Where
> is he; he's most welcome to introduce himself here :)
>

Hi has just left to the DebConf, I don't know why he didn't suscribed
to the list yet, I'm CC him, so Fefu!  introduce yourself! :)

Everything is going fine, right now mostly the ideas and structure and
now starting to prepare the actual talk. I'll share when I got
something more elaborated.

How is your stuff going?

-- 
Bruno

> Well,
> 
> I fixed the peer-group selection bug.
> 
> I couldn't fix the other one which is very strange (as most bugs,
> specially IE:) It seems that the JS adds some padding-margin-border or
> something to the table cels. I installed the IE dev toolbar and it
> shows that there is padding in the TD's, so I harcoded this on the JS
> but it still didn't work, so I don't know how to fix it. I better live
> it for the JS gurus.
> 
> I'll try to keep up with the bugs.

Will checkout the popover bug when I'm on IE again.

I changed the error-reporting behavior so in the production version
the error reports are verbose too.

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2010303&group_id=78643&atid=553990
This bug will be gone when we remove language settings.

How is the preparation of the presentation with Fefu going ? & Where
is he; he's most welcome to introduce himself here :)

Wybo

> Later.

Well,

I fixed the peer-group selection bug.

I couldn't fix the other one which is very strange (as most bugs,
specially IE:) It seems that the JS adds some padding-margin-border or
something to the table cels. I installed the IE dev toolbar and it
shows that there is padding in the TD's, so I harcoded this on the JS
but it still didn't work, so I don't know how to fix it. I better live
it for the JS gurus.

I'll try to keep up with the bugs.

Later.

On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Bruno <bs...@gm...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've submited two IE7 bugs, one serious that prevents from using
> peergroups right now.
>
> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2039829&group_id=78643&atid=553990
> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2039825&group_id=78643&atid=553990
>
> Will fix them in the upcomming days if nobody does them before.
>
> --
> Bruno
>



-- 
Bruno

Hi all,

I've submited two IE7 bugs, one serious that prevents from using
peergroups right now.

https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2039829&group_id=78643&atid=553990
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2039825&group_id=78643&atid=553990

Will fix them in the upcomming days if nobody does them before.

-- 
Bruno

> Hi Wybo,
> 
> Why is the ranking of contending logis not working?
> http://en.logilogi.org/Sandbox

They were indeed not sorted in the side-list (while they were for the
logi display). Fixed that now.

Wybo

> -- 
> Bruno

Hi Wybo,

Why is the ranking of contending logis not working?
http://en.logilogi.org/Sandbox

-- 
Bruno

On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 5:22 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> We can then still be running LL in different languages, but it will
> be separate sites, still under sub-domains, like nl.logilogi.org.
>
> That is if you pplz agree to it too.
>
I think that would help a lot. I've already took it off the testing
instalation at logilogi.overbits.com :)

About this, it's not working right now. I couldn't make it to
production mode yet...

> Wybo
>
> PS: Also something I will be working on during the last weeks of aug
> is the problem of pplz getting lost. One part of that is how the
> resolving works, but with some small tweaks I have in mind it should
> be a lot better.

great you're focusing on this, looking forward your thoughts!

greetings

-- 
Bruno

Been thinking about it a bit more during some less interesting talks
today, and I think it is ok for simplicity's sake, to remove the
multi-lingual functionality from LogiLogi. It will make LogiLogi
faster, fix the multilingual-tags-problem, and some smaller issues
like that with language-flags...

We can then still be running LL in different languages, but it will 
be separate sites, still under sub-domains, like nl.logilogi.org.

That is if you pplz agree to it too.

Wybo

PS: Also something I will be working on during the last weeks of aug
is the problem of pplz getting lost. One part of that is how the
resolving works, but with some small tweaks I have in mind it should 
be a lot better.

> I need to get some todo's and start working. I think I'll start from a
> cleanup of css, then HTML, maybe make it standars compilant... I want
> to have the valid html icon, dont you? :)

Good :) There's also many TODO's (as many as you would want :) in the 
tracker :)

> > UI might be a good start; and I saw you were thinking in that
> > direction too; so I'd say go ahead, but plz keep average users in
> > mind, so don't get lost in stuff like making it liquid or work in
> > lynx, just assume a fixed witdth and start improving usabillity with
> > help-icons, renaming & grouping things and such)
> 
> Ok, let me clarify this. My proposals don't have much diff to the
> current UI on purpose. We talk befor we should stick to one UI and
> work on it and that's what I'm trying to do. I would like you to

Indeed; good :)

> understand that this is an extra work for me as this is not my
> proposal, but it's what has been chossen, and as I understand the
> needs for collaborative work I stick to this. If it where what I want
> to do, I'd start from scratch and would probably be something
> radically different. I'll be trying some different UI approach on the
> project for uruguay, (let's call it Muniato). Then we will have
> something to compare too, and from where to import snipets, or maybe
> the entire code. This is a matter of needs. One of the request of this

1If possible, please let's stick to one UI, and keep themes in
coloring via CSS and images; I mean we already have problems enough
making one UI work across browsers...

> project was a new UI, theme... that's what they asked several times,
> and I think it could work towards the "simple" UI, and that's what I'm
> planning to work at. I'll let you know how it goes.

You can make a simple UI for LL in general, as long as the basic
features are there. Language can be turned on/off via a config setting
easily, and translation is best done via gettext. It's not implemented
in LL yet, but it is in OgOg, so you can see there how it's done. The
handy thing about gettext is that the translations are all in one
file, while in the code there's English in _() functions in the code.

Also if the same sentence/snippet occurs twice in the source it needs 
to be translated only once with gettext.

> On the other hand, I'll be working on parallel with LL trunk and will
> commit changes gradually towards what you mention, improve usability,
> help-icons, etc.

Ok, but plz consider keeping it 1 UI :)

> Also, today we will start to prepare the talk with Fefu, and I'm
> exited about this, we are planning a very interactive talk, and a
> different approach of what I did last time. I hope we get peoples
> attention :) I'll share what we are doing to the trunk when we have
> something.

Great :)

Plz discuss the needs here, apart from Spanish UI, 1 lang and a theme,

Wybo

> Later all!
> 
> -- 
> Bruno

On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
>> I think our current UI is not good Wybo, we should take a look from
>> outside, we are inside the project and it's hard to take perspective.
>>
>
> May indeed be something to think about, but at least estetically
> speaking I think our UI is much better than the one of wikipedia,
> moinmoin and plone. They (esp mediawiki) look so 1990's.
>
> Usabillity should be improved though, a lot, and fast.

Is there anybody in the list interested on working on the UI? I mean,
we all propose ideas, and colaborate, and mostly you Wybo work on
everything, but I was wondering if the people who made the current UI
would like to work on it or not. Andrew?

I need to get some todo's and start working. I think I'll start from a
cleanup of css, then HTML, maybe make it standars compilant... I want
to have the valid html icon, dont you? :)

>
> (on the esthetic side I don't see much diff between your new proposal
> and the current UI, and that is a good thing, but it makes me think
> about the need of a radical new UI; adding your improvements to the
> UI might be a good start; and I saw you were thinking in that
> direction too; so I'd say go ahead, but plz keep average users in
> mind, so don't get lost in stuff like making it liquid or work in
> lynx, just assume a fixed witdth and start improving usabillity with
> help-icons, renaming & grouping things and such)

Ok, let me clarify this. My proposals don't have much diff to the
current UI on purpose. We talk befor we should stick to one UI and
work on it and that's what I'm trying to do. I would like you to
understand that this is an extra work for me as this is not my
proposal, but it's what has been chossen, and as I understand the
needs for collaborative work I stick to this. If it where what I want
to do, I'd start from scratch and would probably be something
radically different. I'll be trying some different UI approach on the
project for uruguay, (let's call it Muniato). Then we will have
something to compare too, and from where to import snipets, or maybe
the entire code. This is a matter of needs. One of the request of this
project was a new UI, theme... that's what they asked several times,
and I think it could work towards the "simple" UI, and that's what I'm
planning to work at. I'll let you know how it goes.

On the other hand, I'll be working on parallel with LL trunk and will
commit changes gradually towards what you mention, improve usability,
help-icons, etc.

Also, today we will start to prepare the talk with Fefu, and I'm
exited about this, we are planning a very interactive talk, and a
different approach of what I did last time. I hope we get peoples
attention :) I'll share what we are doing to the trunk when we have
something.

Later all!

-- 
Bruno

Thanks wybo! it's fixed now. I'll try to get it to run on a
sub-domain. I couldn't get it to run on port 3000 as the hosts
solution didn't work. I could add it as it's proposed and point my own
computer's hosts to resolve that urls (logi-manta.org) to my server,
but that won't be practical for others.

I'll get it running and post my notes on that.

Good luck with your work!

later
-- 
Bruno

> I think our current UI is not good Wybo, we should take a look from
> outside, we are inside the project and it's hard to take perspective.
> 
> We should have a design that works just like wikipedia, moinmoin,
> plone, and so on... Thats my view, and we can do it right away.

May indeed be something to think about, but at least estetically
speaking I think our UI is much better than the one of wikipedia,
moinmoin and plone. They (esp mediawiki) look so 1990's.

Usabillity should be improved though, a lot, and fast.

(on the esthetic side I don't see much diff between your new proposal
and the current UI, and that is a good thing, but it makes me think
about the need of a radical new UI; adding your improvements to the
UI might be a good start; and I saw you were thinking in that
direction too; so I'd say go ahead, but plz keep average users in
mind, so don't get lost in stuff like making it liquid or work in
lynx, just assume a fixed witdth and start improving usabillity with
help-icons, renaming & grouping things and such)

More when I've more time.

Wybo