logilogi-list Mailing List for LogiLogi - Software Libre for the Web (Page 12)

Stephanie,

> My ramp-up plans are delayed a few more days. My grandmother died last
> week, and I have a funeral to attend on Tuesday. She was 95 and a real
> pioneer, and I'll miss her, but I have no regrets about our
> relationship.
>

sad to hear this, and also nice how you talk... my condolences to you.

-- 
Bruno

I am moving to Barcelona tomorrow. Done a lot of thinking on improving manta and reading on advanced Rails stuff to make sure I know all there is to know about Rails (´The Rails Way´ book) ;)

And about the longer term. More out loud thougts soon :)

> My ramp-up plans are delayed a few more days. My
> grandmother died last
> week, and I have a funeral to attend on Tuesday. She was 95
> and a real
> pioneer, and I'll miss her, but I have no regrets about
> our
> relationship.

Wish you all the strength you may need with this unhappy course of events.

And I understand the delay.

Wybo
 
> --Stephanie
> 
> -- 
> Stephanie Bryant
> Author, Videoblogging for Dummies
> mor...@gm...
> http://www.mortaine.com/


      

On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Bruno <bs...@gm...> wrote:
> Welcome Stephanie!
>
> It's great to have a writer onboard, it's absolutely a need now for
> LogiLogi I think.

Thanks, Bruno. I'm looking forward to getting to know everyone and the app.

My ramp-up plans are delayed a few more days. My grandmother died last
week, and I have a funeral to attend on Tuesday. She was 95 and a real
pioneer, and I'll miss her, but I have no regrets about our
relationship.

--Stephanie

-- 
Stephanie Bryant
Author, Videoblogging for Dummies
mor...@gm...
http://www.mortaine.com/

Hi Wybo!

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wyb...@ya...> wrote:
> Great to hear that you will give the talk in Montevideo!! :)
>
> Looking forward to your presentation, and if in tex, plz also commit it and the images.
>

Yes I will, and I hope to get the time to work out some diagrams,
right now I'm working hard on the speech. I'm modeling the
presentation for a not technical audience and trying to fit into the
20-30 minutes.

I also have learned to use Tex, which is yet another great new tool
I've learned :) Thanks!

> All is fine, I am currently in Pineda de Mar, in Spain, and have no easy access to internet, so this message is short. Will have internet again in Barcelona on monday.
>
Wybo, is there any easy-way to get the user interfase translated? I'm
asking this as OgOg has already this functionality and it would be
good to have UI in spanish for the presentation, but also it's not
priority.

> About copying stuff from WP I´m not for that.
>
Ok, ok... :) I understand that it would not fit LL way, but I just
don't have the writing skills and we need content!!! :P

Talk later, thanks for the reply!

-- 
Bruno

Great to hear that you will give the talk in Montevideo!! :)

Looking forward to your presentation, and if in tex, plz also commit it and the images.

All is fine, I am currently in Pineda de Mar, in Spain, and have no easy access to internet, so this message is short. Will have internet again in Barcelona on monday.

About copying stuff from WP I´m not for that.

New pplz the processing of your patches will take till monday or tuesday when Im online again.

greetings,

Wybo

> It's now confirmed. I'll be giving a talk explaining
> LogiLogi at the
> Faculty of Social Sciences at Montevideo. The talk will be
> promoted on
> the Faculty website, mailings and billboards. The computer
> room has a
> capacity of arround 40, so I hope we call enough attention
> so many
> people can attend.
> 
> I'm full time working on this now. Wybo, I'm
> translating your RMLL
> presentation as it's very good and I'll probably
> make some
> modifications to feet how I want to introduce it. This
> includes that
> I'm willing to make a more graphical presentation, with
> diagrams to
> explain the functioning. I hope to be able to get to
> something good
> with this.
> 
> I would also like to have some examples of peer-groups that
> show
> different logis. We currently don't have any logi with
> good
> contenders, and we should get down to this kind of
> examples. I thought
> about creating logis, for example about
> "Reality", and show
> perspectives from different schools "idealism",
> "materialism", and
> others. Then add some peergroup "the idealists"
> and other "the
> materialists"... But I don't know what you all
> think about this. I
> just found that it takes still too long for people to
> understand
> what's LL about, and this is mostly becouse they go
> straight to the
> search box and don't find anything of what they type
> in. This will
> certainly change with the new frontpage, I'm sure, but
> good content
> and examples is also very much needed. In my talk I'll
> also try to
> incite people to write.
> 
> I've been thinking that sub-headings of WP are kind of
> logis, as they
> are short and describe one concept, and the parent headings
> would be
> the context. Wybo, what do you think about adding Logis
> extracted from
> WP?
> 
> Well, I'll keep you'all up with my progress.
> 
> Later.
> 
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Bruno
> <bs...@gm...> wrote:
> > Well, that's the good news, I'm fixing the
> last details to give an
> > introduction talk about LL at the Faculty of Social
> Science at
> > Montevideo, Uruguay.
> >
> > The talk will be the 15th of this month, so I
> don't have much time to
> > prepare it, but I'll be almost full time to
> prepare it.
> >
> > We'll try to promote the talk so as much as
> possible people can assist.
> >
> > This is a good opportunity to start gathering
> information for my next
> > presentation here at Bs. As. if it happens, although
> this talk will
> > not be much for tech people and rather more oriented
> to humanities
> > people.
> >
> > I hope to get people motivated to participate and
> start writing. For
> > this it would be nice to be able to translate the user
> interface, but
> > I don't know how much work that would take, I mean
> the technical part,
> > I could work out the translation.
> >
> > I'm very happy about this opportunity and also
> happy to spread the word for LL.
> >
> > Greeting all!
> >
> > ps: (later tonight I'll commit the UI, promise :)
> > --
> > Bruno
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bruno
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sponsored by: SourceForge.net Community Choice Awards: VOTE
> NOW!
> Studies have shown that voting for your favorite open
> source project,
> along with a healthy diet, reduces your potential for
> chronic lameness
> and boredom. Vote Now at
> http://www.sourceforge.net/community/cca08
> _______________________________________________
> LogiLogi-list mailing list
> Log...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list


      

It's now confirmed. I'll be giving a talk explaining LogiLogi at the
Faculty of Social Sciences at Montevideo. The talk will be promoted on
the Faculty website, mailings and billboards. The computer room has a
capacity of arround 40, so I hope we call enough attention so many
people can attend.

I'm full time working on this now. Wybo, I'm translating your RMLL
presentation as it's very good and I'll probably make some
modifications to feet how I want to introduce it. This includes that
I'm willing to make a more graphical presentation, with diagrams to
explain the functioning. I hope to be able to get to something good
with this.

I would also like to have some examples of peer-groups that show
different logis. We currently don't have any logi with good
contenders, and we should get down to this kind of examples. I thought
about creating logis, for example about "Reality", and show
perspectives from different schools "idealism", "materialism", and
others. Then add some peergroup "the idealists" and other "the
materialists"... But I don't know what you all think about this. I
just found that it takes still too long for people to understand
what's LL about, and this is mostly becouse they go straight to the
search box and don't find anything of what they type in. This will
certainly change with the new frontpage, I'm sure, but good content
and examples is also very much needed. In my talk I'll also try to
incite people to write.

I've been thinking that sub-headings of WP are kind of logis, as they
are short and describe one concept, and the parent headings would be
the context. Wybo, what do you think about adding Logis extracted from
WP?

Well, I'll keep you'all up with my progress.

Later.

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Bruno <bs...@gm...> wrote:
> Well, that's the good news, I'm fixing the last details to give an
> introduction talk about LL at the Faculty of Social Science at
> Montevideo, Uruguay.
>
> The talk will be the 15th of this month, so I don't have much time to
> prepare it, but I'll be almost full time to prepare it.
>
> We'll try to promote the talk so as much as possible people can assist.
>
> This is a good opportunity to start gathering information for my next
> presentation here at Bs. As. if it happens, although this talk will
> not be much for tech people and rather more oriented to humanities
> people.
>
> I hope to get people motivated to participate and start writing. For
> this it would be nice to be able to translate the user interface, but
> I don't know how much work that would take, I mean the technical part,
> I could work out the translation.
>
> I'm very happy about this opportunity and also happy to spread the word for LL.
>
> Greeting all!
>
> ps: (later tonight I'll commit the UI, promise :)
> --
> Bruno
>



-- 
Bruno

Wybo, thanks for your reply

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> Again an answer that is not as extended as it should be, becaue of
> time limits. I will be on the road again tomorrow, and I don't know if
> there will be any internet.
>
I understand your mobile situation, having fun? :)

> Your UI-proposal looks good, that first of all :)
>
Thanks! great you like it!!

>
> Still I think that some of the style and coloring is not so suitable
> for the target audience, as Andrew specially selected colors and
> style-elements to make it look more authorative/humanities-like.
>

Well, I didn't know/remember that, and I thought trying other colors
as I see there could be a need for some monitor displays, but I don't
have many fundaments for that, or that my choice would work better.

I've applied the current color scheme and I do think it looks good.
Right after applying the scheme I come up with some modifications and
also submitted them. I will be making commits as I make changes to
keep history of my changes too, and so we all can compare.

> Also I think that the logi-info should be shown together, like the
> remarks, the meta-data, etc... That's why the remarks currently are in
> the left menus-column.

I'm not sure if I understood right. Is that the stars and power? At
first I had it all moved to the sidebar, but then I thought that this
was fundamental concept for logilogi and decided to show them more,
and tight to the logi.

>
> About immediate remarking. I just seen this interesting idea in a
> desktop-app called Sophie (for book-editing). When an user selects
> some text it shows some icons at the mouse-position. Have to think
> about it a bit more, but it seems good :)

That would be very nice :)

>
> About the front-page I just committed a quick & dirty stub
> implementation which still needs some work before it can go live.
>

It looks good so far, and brings much more meaning to the frontpage!!!
the tagcloud is great.
I think recent remarks is also needed mostly all published content
should be processed, but maybe not to the front page... The "changes"
or "activity" page could show a good perspective of what's going on at
LL.

Anyway, the frontpage already looks changed and for good, good work Wybo!

Talk later.

-- 
Bruno

Again an answer that is not as extended as it should be, becaue of
time limits. I will be on the road again tomorrow, and I don't know if
there will be any internet.

Your UI-proposal looks good, that first of all :)

I like many of the ideas in there. Will come back to them later.

Some are the peergroup-selection on top, the toolbar at the bottom,
the help-icons, and the labels with the tags. I also like the merging
of the search and found-bars.

Still I think that some of the style and coloring is not so suitable
for the target audience, as Andrew specially selected colors and
style-elements to make it look more authorative/humanities-like.

Also I think that the logi-info should be shown together, like the
remarks, the meta-data, etc... That's why the remarks currently are in
the left menus-column.

About immediate remarking. I just seen this interesting idea in a
desktop-app called Sophie (for book-editing). When an user selects
some text it shows some icons at the mouse-position. Have to think
about it a bit more, but it seems good :)

About the front-page I just committed a quick & dirty stub
implementation which still needs some work before it can go live.

More later,

Wybo

> I've been working over the UI_proposal_A.svg. Here is some
> explanation/justification of my changes and other stuff:
> 
> = Overview
> Well, in general I tried to apply some ideas I've previously mention.
> This is not finished yet as you will notice, and I'm sharing it so we
> can work it together if you all like. I'd really would like to work
> all together to end up with a better interface for Logilogi.
> 
> All of this is my personal view of a better logilogi, and all are
> proposals, just that, and some of them are radical and experimental
> that should be tested to prove they work in case we all agree to use
> them.
> 
> Also as this is not finished, there are obvious bits left, like the
> sidebars that where not changed much (apart from some styling). I've
> focused mostly on the headers, tried to define estyles that would work
> site-wide, "clean-up" the logi space, enfasize the peer-group
> perspective and your power (as one of the most important parts of LL),
> the rating and also the "new logi" action, as to promote people to
> rate.
> 
> Last but not least, this is a scratch and it's not perfect in the
> aspects of positions, margins, separations, sizes (although I've paid
> most attention to them), etc. Colors for example are proposed but not
> definitive as I need some testing still.
> 
> = Colors
> Well, I've done lot's of color schemes test. I end up with blue, like
> in many web apps we see arround and also many desktop software, and
> that's because blue works very good on screen. Also I've also been
> attracted to blue links (like default) and that makes blue a good
> companion.
> 
> = Fonts
> I've used font families and sizes but just as example to work over the
> layout and other concepts, but the definitive styles will take another
> approach, and I prefer working them right from the CSS, although they
> might end up looking similar to what they are now, but not the same.
> For example, the logi text would work better on a browser, somehow
> inkscape ads a little bold.
> 
> = Header
> I've made many tests of color schemes, sizes, shapes, etc, and I've
> found that a heavy header helps the rest of the structure, so that's
> why the heavy-dark-blue header.
> 
> = Navigation bar - too many tags
> I always tend to be minimalistic, and since some time I've been
> thinking of a very minimalistic interfase for LL, which would consist
> of only one search box where everything would happen, suggestion,
> dynamic tag coloring (assigning content and context as typing), and
> also very ajaxyfied. So that would be some radical approach. In this
> case, we would be repeating tags only two times if we count the URL
> bar as our first input.
> 
> Now at LL we've got tags repeated 3 times only at the navigation bar.
> I do understand why they are and I also think they are necessary now,
> but we should keep it in mind.
> 
> The other thing I see problematic about the tags is it's order for
> context and content, which is wrote 2 times each way, and I think it's
> confusing. We've discussed a lot about this [0]. I think we should go
> either way, but not mix them. I still fill query way more intuitive.
> 
> So, I did some changes.
> 
> I wrote "requested" (like old times) but still not sure what's the
> best, maybe it's searched for:, don't know.
> 
> I kind of merged the current "search" and "searched for" bar into one,
> and split the search in two, which I think will help users to
> understand what they are doing. It's an easy and effective way I
> believe, still have to test it.
> 
> = Main menu
> I think "activity" is a more descriptive name for what I imagine will
> have that section, since we will have logi-changes, last remarks,
> comments, etc... what do you think?
> 
> Also we could use a bit more wording for "tags", I don't know what,
> but we need to make clear that there you will find all logis...
> 
> = Logi toolbar
> I've give a try to this new approach. All logi-related actions to the
> bottom, and this was because when you finish reading a logi is when
> you want to use this tools, but also becouse they disturb most of the
> time since they are not used, but this is just a proposed idea.
> 
> = Icons
> I started to do some approaches to icons. I tested a linking-icon at
> the searched tags showing one-to-many, they are very communicative and
> explanatory, I'd like to use more of this. I actually used them on
> first approaches but then I didn't add them again, and now I just
> placed them to see what you all think, but I'm not sure if they are so
> explanatory.
> I also made a simple "logi" icon... I could start building other
> icons, but first the general aesthetic should be defined, in case it
> changes from what is now.
> 
> = Links
> Right now you see links not underlined, but I pretend to test later
> how underline works as I think is the best approach. Inkscape don't
> has underline style for text so I didn't do it at first. In HTML is
> easier to test if it works or not.
> 
> = Buttons
> I've defined a standard button style, grey background and link in
> blue, which works for buttons and select boxes, but this is just a
> test, as select boxes should probably still be default styled for a
> while, later we could do a javascript+css dropdown, which are nice.
> Also, I've made an exception of button for the "create new logi" as to
> enfasize it, and play with the association of blue with the logi.
> 
> = Overbox
> I've been thinking for a while about a logi-centered design, for which
> I mean that most things happen within the logi (marking, commenting,
> editing). Also now while using it, I realized the overbox for editing
> anything is very annoying and obstructive. My proposal is to not use
> any more over boxes for any kind of edition, and use them (or popovers
> like logilinks) just for showing any static information. Also popups
> are very confusing for most people I think.
> 
> By now, we could some-how fix the overbox problems by changing the
> transparent background by a solid white background (which I also think
> is nicer), and I would also suggest not closing it when clicking
> outside the box, and just do it when clicking the close cross or
> cancel, submit, etc.
> 
> = Logi centered design
> I've been thinking of ways to start doing a logi centered design and
> interaction, which means that we could select text from the logi and
> comment right there without leaving (or poping) to another page/logi,
> and modifying settings right there, maybe with a shrinking box that
> appears, all without loosing focus on the logi. For this Wybo already
> explained the difficulties, so I've been thinking how to solve them.
> 
> I've been thinking that we could print the logi without links and
> remarks and add them dynamically through javascript, and only when
> needed. This way we could have always a plain text (or just basic
> tags) so we might have more control over the logi... You might already
> though about this and maybe it's just too difficult to do, but I see
> it would be a start for the next interactive LL :)
> 
> = People lost on logilogi
> Although for us it might be obvious, still people is getting lost in
> Logilogi (the current public beta), although now everybody has
> understood much more than before (previous UI). People would say to me
> "I've searched for Idealims (or anything) and nothing appears", and
> this express what people hopes to find, and for this we need to
> improve the frontpage (as the new one will certainly do), and make all
> sections more expresive, that is certainly the next step. This would
> take another mail so we can talk about each part closely.
> 
> = Next steps
> Next I'll be working on the sidebars, their content and style. Right
> now, for example, My Settings has duplicated options for peergroup as
> they are on the header now too.
> 
> = Old list mails
> While researching about the previous tagging discussion, I found the
> first mails I wrote to the list, and I realized that right now we are
> doing what we where talking two years ago we would do, and just before
> reading this I made my first logi about the first "thoughts" I talked
> Wybo about, in our first conversation on the list... things are going
> just fine :)
> 
> Well, I think that was enough, looking forward the critics.
> 
> Greetings!
> 
> [0] http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=20070704201750.GA30673%40logilogi.org&forum_name=logilogi-list
> 
> -- 
> Bruno
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sponsored by: SourceForge.net Community Choice Awards: VOTE NOW!
> Studies have shown that voting for your favorite open source project,
> along with a healthy diet, reduces your potential for chronic lameness
> and boredom. Vote Now at http://www.sourceforge.net/community/cca08
> _______________________________________________
> LogiLogi-list mailing list
> Log...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list
> 

-- 
---

::Student:
- Informatiekunde (computer linguistics, IR, webtech), History and Philosophy
- Member of the Center for Metahistory Groningen (http://www.rug.nl/let/cmg)

::Free Software and Open Source Developer:
- Active in the LogiLogi Foundation (http://foundation.logilogi.org)
- http://www.LogiLogi.org, Cumulative, shared commenting, publication and 
                           idea sharing: Where insight comes together...
- http://www.OgOg.org, RSS feed articles rating, a meritocracy...
- ComLinToo, a computational linguistics toolset written in Perl

Sorry, but just in case, this is the proposal A SVG file:

http://logilogi.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/*checkout*/logilogi/trunk/public/images/UI_proposal_A.svg

:)
-- 
Bruno

I've been working over the UI_proposal_A.svg. Here is some
explanation/justification of my changes and other stuff:

= Overview
Well, in general I tried to apply some ideas I've previously mention.
This is not finished yet as you will notice, and I'm sharing it so we
can work it together if you all like. I'd really would like to work
all together to end up with a better interface for Logilogi.

All of this is my personal view of a better logilogi, and all are
proposals, just that, and some of them are radical and experimental
that should be tested to prove they work in case we all agree to use
them.

Also as this is not finished, there are obvious bits left, like the
sidebars that where not changed much (apart from some styling). I've
focused mostly on the headers, tried to define estyles that would work
site-wide, "clean-up" the logi space, enfasize the peer-group
perspective and your power (as one of the most important parts of LL),
the rating and also the "new logi" action, as to promote people to
rate.

Last but not least, this is a scratch and it's not perfect in the
aspects of positions, margins, separations, sizes (although I've paid
most attention to them), etc. Colors for example are proposed but not
definitive as I need some testing still.

= Colors
Well, I've done lot's of color schemes test. I end up with blue, like
in many web apps we see arround and also many desktop software, and
that's because blue works very good on screen. Also I've also been
attracted to blue links (like default) and that makes blue a good
companion.

= Fonts
I've used font families and sizes but just as example to work over the
layout and other concepts, but the definitive styles will take another
approach, and I prefer working them right from the CSS, although they
might end up looking similar to what they are now, but not the same.
For example, the logi text would work better on a browser, somehow
inkscape ads a little bold.

= Header
I've made many tests of color schemes, sizes, shapes, etc, and I've
found that a heavy header helps the rest of the structure, so that's
why the heavy-dark-blue header.

= Navigation bar - too many tags
I always tend to be minimalistic, and since some time I've been
thinking of a very minimalistic interfase for LL, which would consist
of only one search box where everything would happen, suggestion,
dynamic tag coloring (assigning content and context as typing), and
also very ajaxyfied. So that would be some radical approach. In this
case, we would be repeating tags only two times if we count the URL
bar as our first input.

Now at LL we've got tags repeated 3 times only at the navigation bar.
I do understand why they are and I also think they are necessary now,
but we should keep it in mind.

The other thing I see problematic about the tags is it's order for
context and content, which is wrote 2 times each way, and I think it's
confusing. We've discussed a lot about this [0]. I think we should go
either way, but not mix them. I still fill query way more intuitive.

So, I did some changes.

I wrote "requested" (like old times) but still not sure what's the
best, maybe it's searched for:, don't know.

I kind of merged the current "search" and "searched for" bar into one,
and split the search in two, which I think will help users to
understand what they are doing. It's an easy and effective way I
believe, still have to test it.

= Main menu
I think "activity" is a more descriptive name for what I imagine will
have that section, since we will have logi-changes, last remarks,
comments, etc... what do you think?

Also we could use a bit more wording for "tags", I don't know what,
but we need to make clear that there you will find all logis...

= Logi toolbar
I've give a try to this new approach. All logi-related actions to the
bottom, and this was because when you finish reading a logi is when
you want to use this tools, but also becouse they disturb most of the
time since they are not used, but this is just a proposed idea.

= Icons
I started to do some approaches to icons. I tested a linking-icon at
the searched tags showing one-to-many, they are very communicative and
explanatory, I'd like to use more of this. I actually used them on
first approaches but then I didn't add them again, and now I just
placed them to see what you all think, but I'm not sure if they are so
explanatory.
I also made a simple "logi" icon... I could start building other
icons, but first the general aesthetic should be defined, in case it
changes from what is now.

= Links
Right now you see links not underlined, but I pretend to test later
how underline works as I think is the best approach. Inkscape don't
has underline style for text so I didn't do it at first. In HTML is
easier to test if it works or not.

= Buttons
I've defined a standard button style, grey background and link in
blue, which works for buttons and select boxes, but this is just a
test, as select boxes should probably still be default styled for a
while, later we could do a javascript+css dropdown, which are nice.
Also, I've made an exception of button for the "create new logi" as to
enfasize it, and play with the association of blue with the logi.

= Overbox
I've been thinking for a while about a logi-centered design, for which
I mean that most things happen within the logi (marking, commenting,
editing). Also now while using it, I realized the overbox for editing
anything is very annoying and obstructive. My proposal is to not use
any more over boxes for any kind of edition, and use them (or popovers
like logilinks) just for showing any static information. Also popups
are very confusing for most people I think.

By now, we could some-how fix the overbox problems by changing the
transparent background by a solid white background (which I also think
is nicer), and I would also suggest not closing it when clicking
outside the box, and just do it when clicking the close cross or
cancel, submit, etc.

= Logi centered design
I've been thinking of ways to start doing a logi centered design and
interaction, which means that we could select text from the logi and
comment right there without leaving (or poping) to another page/logi,
and modifying settings right there, maybe with a shrinking box that
appears, all without loosing focus on the logi. For this Wybo already
explained the difficulties, so I've been thinking how to solve them.

I've been thinking that we could print the logi without links and
remarks and add them dynamically through javascript, and only when
needed. This way we could have always a plain text (or just basic
tags) so we might have more control over the logi... You might already
though about this and maybe it's just too difficult to do, but I see
it would be a start for the next interactive LL :)

= People lost on logilogi
Although for us it might be obvious, still people is getting lost in
Logilogi (the current public beta), although now everybody has
understood much more than before (previous UI). People would say to me
"I've searched for Idealims (or anything) and nothing appears", and
this express what people hopes to find, and for this we need to
improve the frontpage (as the new one will certainly do), and make all
sections more expresive, that is certainly the next step. This would
take another mail so we can talk about each part closely.

= Next steps
Next I'll be working on the sidebars, their content and style. Right
now, for example, My Settings has duplicated options for peergroup as
they are on the header now too.

= Old list mails
While researching about the previous tagging discussion, I found the
first mails I wrote to the list, and I realized that right now we are
doing what we where talking two years ago we would do, and just before
reading this I made my first logi about the first "thoughts" I talked
Wybo about, in our first conversation on the list... things are going
just fine :)

Well, I think that was enough, looking forward the critics.

Greetings!

[0] http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=20070704201750.GA30673%40logilogi.org&forum_name=logilogi-list

-- 
Bruno

Hi Randall,

I'm Bruno and I work mostly at the UI design, HTML, CSS and it's
crossbrowser nightmare when we need it. I'm not into the ruby code
right now although getting into it very slowly. Also me and Miguel are
native Spanish speakers too, we are both from Uruguay :)

Wybo is the main back end developer (and creator of this project too),
also Miguel and Steffen work at the code and Javascript.

Lately two people joined the group as you can read in the list,
Stephanie that wanted to help out on the writing of documentation and
Thomas who is exploring Ruby.

> and ended up on this one somehow.  It interests me and I would love to help
> in anything that I might be useful.

That's great, you can help out with anything you see is needed. We are
currently working with the bug system at Sourceforge and you can pick
any task you think you can fix. We first assign tasks so not to work
two on the same thing, but it's that easy :)

> I am currently working full time so my commitment to the project would have
> something like 4 to 10 hours a week tops.  I hope this is not a major
> problem but I understand if you need a more dedicated person.
>
I don't think it's a problem of dedication, maybe if you can fix small
bugs on the time you have per week, that would be a great
contribution.

> As for now, I will be checking the previous posts to get a clearer idea of
> what you are up to and what the project is about.
>

You can find good logis explaining logilogi itself at logilogi.org,
but let me point you some:

Wybo's great explanations:
http://es.logilogi.org/Logi_Logi/For_Philosophy
http://es.logilogi.org/Logi_Logi/Openness_And_Quality
http://es.logilogi.org/Logi_Logi/The_Formula

(obviously) feel free to translate any of them if you feel like.

I've written this short introduction in spanish:
http://es.logilogi.org/Logi_Logi/Descripcion

And I'm also preparing now to present logilogi at Uruguay as you may
have read in my past mail.

So far, welcome and we're looking forward cooperating :)

Greetings, saludos!

-- 
Bruno

Hi everyone,

I am Randall from Costa Rica.

I was looking around source-forge to get involved in some openSource project
and ended up on this one somehow.  It interests me and I would love to help
in anything that I might be useful.

Programming, Web developing and Tech Consulting have been my lines of work
so far.  I also have some experience with technical documentation and
specification.

My native language is Spanish too, so I might come in handy on the
translation bit.

I am currently working full time so my commitment to the project would have
something like 4 to 10 hours a week tops.  I hope this is not a major
problem but I understand if you need a more dedicated person.

As for now, I will be checking the previous posts to get a clearer idea of
what you are up to and what the project is about.

Cheers.

Randall.

Well, that's the good news, I'm fixing the last details to give an
introduction talk about LL at the Faculty of Social Science at
Montevideo, Uruguay.

The talk will be the 15th of this month, so I don't have much time to
prepare it, but I'll be almost full time to prepare it.

We'll try to promote the talk so as much as possible people can assist.

This is a good opportunity to start gathering information for my next
presentation here at Bs. As. if it happens, although this talk will
not be much for tech people and rather more oriented to humanities
people.

I hope to get people motivated to participate and start writing. For
this it would be nice to be able to translate the user interface, but
I don't know how much work that would take, I mean the technical part,
I could work out the translation.

I'm very happy about this opportunity and also happy to spread the word for LL.

Greeting all!

ps: (later tonight I'll commit the UI, promise :)
-- 
Bruno

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> The second RMLL-presentation might be interesting :)
>
I'll read them.

>
> About this logi, it's best to use English tags even for non-English
> logis.
>
mm... you are right. Maybe both languages too...

>
> Having no limit on ratings by the same user on the same logi causes
> trouble with users that keep clicking, adding their power multiple
> times. On OgOg we had one user achieving a voting-power of 60 in this
> manner...

Yes, right, but I mean that you could be able to modify your vote and
not count it again but instead re-calculate with the new vote, but I
don't know if this is possible or how it would be. For other rating
systems I've used there was a posibility to set "User can undo their
votes?", but LL is much more complicated I think.

>> = User Interfase
>> My bad, but I haven't spent time on the UI and rather writing and
>> researching a little bit. I'll probably spend the weekend over the UI
>> to finally commit it.
>
> Ok. Looking forward to it.
>

I'm almost done and will commit tonight, as I'm still writing the
email with the explanation of my work.

next mail, good news :)

-- 
Bruno

Again much more good stuff than I can answer to now, but here already
some short answers:

> Wybo,
> 
> This logi you've just extended is certainly the best I've read
> explaining the need for freedom on the web. Also, I'd appreciate
> further reading if you have.

The second RMLL-presentation might be interesting :)

> = Libre Community Network
> My logi about "Red comunitaria libre" (which is just a tiny rough
> paragraph) has a lot to do with your writings, or I rather say that
> what you just wrote could be the base or starting philosophy point of
> the concept/idea/project I'm trying to develop. I've been thinking
> about this ideas for some time now, and I've always thought that the
> first step to take toward the concretion was to create a place where
> to debate on how to build itself up, and we could say that step has
> been taken, so next, I'll write down my proposal.

Ok. Good. Interested :)

About this logi, it's best to use English tags even for non-English
logis.

> = Rating over changes
> When I read the first stub of /Free_Software/Web, I thought it was ok
> but not complete and I just rate it 3/5. Now, after the additions I
> think it is a solid 5/5. I already asked Wybo about how this was
> managed, and ratings are reset every week I think, so this is good,
> but we could do it some other way, for example it occurs me that when
> a logi is modified we could set to "modifiable" the rating (so we are
> able to rate it again one time). Other way would be to just liberate
> the rating to always be modifiable, but I guess you already have some
> good reason for not doing this.

Having no limit on ratings by the same user on the same logi causes
trouble with users that keep clicking, adding their power multiple
times. On OgOg we had one user achieving a voting-power of 60 in this
manner...

> = It's LL time
> We've come to know about other projects that are on the same or
> similar paths as LL during the last time, and I certainly see this is
> very encouraging as it gives us the notion of great moment for the
> philosophy debate online type of projects to arise. This is both
> driven by the needs and the circumstances, and I see all are
> converging now... You Wybo are certainly on the eye of the storm right
> now and one can feel it although far away :)

:)

> = Logilogi and the "right way"
> I was writing some thoughts [0] to the list, but decided to just write
> to LL, and it feels good :)

A good logi :)

> = Writing from peergroup?
> Does it matter what peer-group we are in to post a logi?

Nope, not yet, but been thinking about giving it some default initial,
but powerless rating in that case.

> = User Interfase
> My bad, but I haven't spent time on the UI and rather writing and
> researching a little bit. I'll probably spend the weekend over the UI
> to finally commit it.

Ok. Looking forward to it.

Also to Miguels remark removal code & Steffens JS compression-fix :)

(& the patches by our newly welcomed pplz)

Wybo

Hi, I am in Toulouse now. Will be hitchiking on to Narbonne 
the day after tomorrow. Taking some rest tomorrow.

Just saw on LogiLogi we have a small spam-problem with the
remarks, so apart from Miguel's implement remark-removal task 
I now also added an add spam-protection task :)

> Hello,
> Just got new addition to family, shes a feisty orange striped feline, so I
> have had some extra things on my plate. I should be back to developing
> shortly. I am glad to hear from you.

Cool: cats are nice ;)

And :) that you'll have time :)

Wybo

> Thanks.

All great news Wybo! Congratz!

On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> PS: Do comments work on the blog ?
>

actually when I finish reading your posts generally want to comment,
but end up commenting on the list, but, it's also good to write
comments, so I'll try harder :)

Later.

-- 
Bruno

Welcome Stephanie!

It's great to have a writer onboard, it's absolutely a need now for
LogiLogi I think.

On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Stephanie Bryant <mor...@gm...> wrote:
> Hi, Wybo and everyone! I'd better introduce myself, eh?
>
> My name is Stephanie. I've been a tech writer for 11 years, and have
> written everything from programmer APIs to user manuals and online
> help. I wrote Videoblogging for Dummies; I'm pretty much a generalist.
> I'm not a programmer, although I've tried many times to learn.

Wow, you've got lot's of experience, very nice :) It would be great to
later on grab all LL docs and write "Logilogi for Dummies" jajaja! :P

> I live in a motorhome and travel around the U.S. full time. Right now
> we're in New York state. I also write regularly for a few websites,
> including http://www.Suite101.com (I write there about technical
> writing), http://ustravel.today.com (a blog about life on the road),
> vagabondwriter.com (my own site), and http://mortaine.com/blog (my own
> personal blog).
>
That's really exiting! Although I know in USA is very common the
motorhomes, in my country is not, so for me you are 100% adventurous!

> In the next 2 weeks, I'll be going through the logilogi app and
> getting a feel for its audience, how it works, etc., before planning
> out and writing some documentation. I know that may sound like a long
> time, but... my family is coming to visit for a few days next week,
> and that kind of thing throws off every schedule, so I know better
> than to plan on working then. :)
>
I't will be great to have you working with us (even in 2 weeks! :),
and in the meanwhile we can help you out with anything you need.

Greetings!

> --Stephanie
>
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
>>> Wybow,
>>>
>>> I saw that you're looking for a documentation writer for
>>> LogiLogi. I'm a technical writer with 11 years of
>>> experience, looking for something to work on. I'm not a Ruby
>>> programmer, but I learn fast. I see that you have a fairly
>>> complete programmer reference documentation available. What
>>> kind of documentation do you need created?
>>
>> Great, you're most welcome. We especially could use some user-
>> documentation. It videos/screencasts would also be great.
>>
>> http://www.LogiLogi.org/Help would be a good place to start.
>>
>> feel welcome, and introduce yourself a bit more here, if you
>> want (like earlier projects & where are you from),
>>
>> Wybo Wiersma
>>
>>> --Stephanie (aka: mortaine on SF.net)
>>
>> PS: Saw you subscribed to the list, so I replied there.
>>

-- 
Bruno

Hello,
Just got new addition to family, shes a feisty orange striped feline, so I
have had some extra things on my plate. I should be back to developing
shortly. I am glad to hear from you.


Thanks.

First of all, welcome aboard Stephanie and Thomas!

I am Miguel Lezama I was happily introduced to LogiLogi by Bruno 2 years ago.
I am Uruguayan but living in France for the moment. My work at
LogilLogi is mainly as programmer.

Wybo: Cool, all the presentations are going better than expected :)

At the middle of this week I will have a better idea if I can go to Barcelona.
I will keep you informed :)

Miguel

PD: comments are working :P

> PS: Do comments work on the blog ?

No just a small joke ;)

I will be travelling to Barcelona as of tomorrow and might not have
internet or electricity for some time to come as I will be hitchiking
to Barcelona :)

Miguel, I have my mobile phone with me, so if you know anything about
you being able to come there you can call me.

Wybo

The presentations went well again, they both even were broadcasted
live on Freenews, I heard yesterday. They should be in the program
loop all summer! :)

http://foundation.logilogi.org/2008/7/5/rmll-2008

Wybo

PS: Do comments work on the blog ?

Hi, Wybo and everyone! I'd better introduce myself, eh?

My name is Stephanie. I've been a tech writer for 11 years, and have
written everything from programmer APIs to user manuals and online
help. I wrote Videoblogging for Dummies; I'm pretty much a generalist.
I'm not a programmer, although I've tried many times to learn.

I live in a motorhome and travel around the U.S. full time. Right now
we're in New York state. I also write regularly for a few websites,
including http://www.Suite101.com (I write there about technical
writing), http://ustravel.today.com (a blog about life on the road),
vagabondwriter.com (my own site), and http://mortaine.com/blog (my own
personal blog).

In the next 2 weeks, I'll be going through the logilogi app and
getting a feel for its audience, how it works, etc., before planning
out and writing some documentation. I know that may sound like a long
time, but... my family is coming to visit for a few days next week,
and that kind of thing throws off every schedule, so I know better
than to plan on working then. :)

--Stephanie

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
>> Wybow,
>>
>> I saw that you're looking for a documentation writer for
>> LogiLogi. I'm a technical writer with 11 years of
>> experience, looking for something to work on. I'm not a Ruby
>> programmer, but I learn fast. I see that you have a fairly
>> complete programmer reference documentation available. What
>> kind of documentation do you need created?
>
> Great, you're most welcome. We especially could use some user-
> documentation. It videos/screencasts would also be great.
>
> http://www.LogiLogi.org/Help would be a good place to start.
>
> feel welcome, and introduce yourself a bit more here, if you
> want (like earlier projects & where are you from),
>
> Wybo Wiersma
>
>> --Stephanie (aka: mortaine on SF.net)
>
> PS: Saw you subscribed to the list, so I replied there.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
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> _______________________________________________
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>



-- 
Stephanie Bryant
Author, Videoblogging for Dummies
mor...@gm...
http://www.mortaine.com/

> Hello,
> My name is Thomas Smith and I have been programming for about one year. I
> have just recently started exploring Ruby and Ruby on Rails, I am excited to
> be here on my first open source project. I hope to met and collaborate with
> everyone participating. I usually have a fair amount of time on my hands,
> and this seems the best way to learn besides self study.

Welcome to the LogiLogi project :)

I am Wybo, and I have been working on LogiLogi Manta for a bit more
than 2 years now (earlier versions longer), and I am currently presenting 
it at conferences to get feedback and to spread the project's-vision. I 
started with the first implementation & the first design :) It was
improved over time by us all.

I am kind of the back-end guy, Bruno, who has already introduced
himself to you is the front-end/css/xhtml wizzard, Miguel does both
some backend-stuff and amazing JS wizzardry. Steffen Michels has
won the bughunt-competition & is quite a good coder.

I'm currently at the RMLL in France, a talk of Stallman is about to
start now. He said yesterday he would be at our talk to take part in
the discussion on Free Software on Web2.0, but he had an interview at
the time of our talk, so he could not be there.

2 weeks ago I was at the European conference on Computing and
Philosophy, and last week at the Digital Humanities. Had already many
pplz interested & much good, positive feedback :)

Project-focus is now on usabillity and adding user-features. You can
pick a task or a small bug if you want. If you got a fix you can sent
it to me or to the Sourceforge tracker as a patch. You will also need
a sourceforge user-account, so we can give you commit-rights.

greetings & welcome,

Wybo Wiersma

Hi Thomas, and welcome aboard!

I'm Bruno Sarlo and I've been working on Logilogi for almost 2 years.
Logilogi was also my first open source project. I work at the user
interfase, HTML and CSS styling, and I'm not a programmer so you will
work on coding mostly with Wybo and Miguel, but we all participate
actively on the list.

See you around!

On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Thomas Smith <mas...@gm...> wrote:
> Hello,
> My name is Thomas Smith and I have been programming for about one year. I
> have just recently started exploring Ruby and Ruby on Rails, I am excited to
> be here on my first open source project. I hope to met and collaborate with
> everyone participating. I usually have a fair amount of time on my hands,
> and this seems the best way to learn besides self study.


-- 
Bruno