logilogi-list Mailing List for LogiLogi - Software Libre for the Web (Page 8)

Hi all,

I commited some modifications as talked yesterday with Wybo, so now
the logitools works as spected. Still, coloring, fonts and others
still need to be done, probably tomorrow.

Greetings.

-- 
Bruno

Here a short blog-post:
http://foundation.logilogi.org/2008/9/14/at-software-freedom-day-new-ui

Bruno do you already have a html + css-file (near-)ready so I can
start helping out by integrating back & front end ?

greetings :)

Wybo

> Ok, the meeting was fine, talked about many things and they decided
> many things important for the project apart from the technological
> platform, but lets get to what we concern.

Good news, really :)

> About logilogi there are two main problems. First the UI usability and
> the other aspect is that it breaks what most peple are used to do that
> is written in longer article papers.
> 
> This are things we already know, but still need to solve, so I think
> what we should do is just get out this version asap, asap, asap, and
> start some discussion topics.

We should indeed get the version out soon, asap.

> After we talk I think they are starting to loose fear of LL. I had to
> argue a lot about the 500words limit of logis, they finally understood
> it, but it's a big move of the way of thinking to move to the LL way,
> and I think it's understandable and we should have a way to help this
> process, not only for UyTopias... So for this, I think the wiki
> transition will be a good thing, and I aproposed that we launch with
> both tools, wikis and logis, and I think that's how it will be.

Agree, launching with both tools will give them time to get used to it
and also provide a backup, when one fails...

> About the schemas, I couldn't show them, and I couldn't even talk
> about importance of having an "opening" date for totally opennes...
> People was leaving to sleep at 12, that's also understandable, but
> certainly they should care more about this.

Indeed. Hope you can convince them next time of this, maybe it should
be on the agenda a bit earlier. Before sleepyness :)

> Wybo, need the translation files, could you led me a hand on that?

They are in po/es/LogiLogi.po, still there will be quite some new
texts in the UI, so some 40% of translations might be lost again when
the UI is integrated...

> I'm finishing the HTML, almost ready to jump in the code to engage it.

Great :) As the back-end is now also ready and waiting for this :)

> This weekend I hope we can count with miguel, so we need to have clear
> what we need so he can focus on that and get it out right away. Migue,
> please confirm how much time will you have.

Hope so. As said I will be at the Software Freedom Day tomorrow, and
back halfway sunday.

> Let's move! greetings to all.

greetings,

Wybo

> -- 
> Bruno

Hi all,

Ok, the meeting was fine, talked about many things and they decided
many things important for the project apart from the technological
platform, but lets get to what we concern.

About logilogi there are two main problems. First the UI usability and
the other aspect is that it breaks what most peple are used to do that
is written in longer article papers.

This are things we already know, but still need to solve, so I think
what we should do is just get out this version asap, asap, asap, and
start some discussion topics.

After we talk I think they are starting to loose fear of LL. I had to
argue a lot about the 500words limit of logis, they finally understood
it, but it's a big move of the way of thinking to move to the LL way,
and I think it's understandable and we should have a way to help this
process, not only for UyTopias... So for this, I think the wiki
transition will be a good thing, and I aproposed that we launch with
both tools, wikis and logis, and I think that's how it will be.

About the schemas, I couldn't show them, and I couldn't even talk
about importance of having an "opening" date for totally opennes...
People was leaving to sleep at 12, that's also understandable, but
certainly they should care more about this.

Wybo, need the translation files, could you led me a hand on that?

I'm finishing the HTML, almost ready to jump in the code to engage it.

This weekend I hope we can count with miguel, so we need to have clear
what we need so he can focus on that and get it out right away. Migue,
please confirm how much time will you have.

Let's move! greetings to all.

-- 
Bruno

I just committed some more tests and fixes in the back end...

Apart from maybe some more polishing and testing, it is ready now for
the new front-end :)

I will give a presentation tomorrow at the Software Freedomday in
Baarn, the Netherlands tomorrow, around 15:00.

Is not a very big conference, but still hope for some audience :)

greetings,

Wybo

PS: Bruno how did things go at the meeting ? I hope well. Really
interested in hearing how it went.

> > I just committed the .svg in which the Browse and Search views are
> > styled like the view logi view...
>
> Great, I'll take them in a pendrive if the people need to see them.

How did it go ? Did they like it ?

> > Some small suggestions for the browsing view might need explanation:
> >
> > - Removed the header for tags suggested for addition as it looked a
> > bit weird to have a darkish-blue pill or line there... And this looks
> > calmer...
> 
> yes it does...

:)

> > - The minus signs behind the tags looked like hyphens, so I replaced
> > them with X'es. Also reduces the number of icon types. Still feel a
> > bit mixed about this, but seemed the closest to a solution.
>
> yes, mixed about this too, but crosses work well for now.

'k

> > - Filter by tag-sets is now found logis for tag-sets. Clicking a tag-
> > set (both in search and browse) loads it into the browser as a new
> > browse query.
> 
> great :)

:)

> > - Found 'exact matches', and 'sloppy matches'. Exact matches are for
> > the query tags in the same order, and sloppy matches are the query
> > tags in a different order, and/or with extra tags appended...
> 
> I like this, and I like it most with the tag-set showed as you did in
> the out-of-page tests... By showing them we are deffining what is
> "exact" and what is "sloppy".

Problem here is that we cannot show the tags for sloppy, as it's the
tags in any order, and with extra tags possibly, so showing tags can't
be done for that...

For exact we could, but in that case the tags are already in the
query-bar so it would be double info...

> > - At the left, outside the screen view I added two boxes that would be
> > there when no logis were found for the full tagset. These are also
> > handy for when an user clicks on a link for which no logis are found.
> 
> good too

'k :)

> now back to the #logilogi

Cu there this evening :)

I will commit the presentation for the Software Freedom Day within the
hour. Might still change some little things, but basics are there.

For the examples I still used the old UI, as that's what pplz will
encounter, and to be honest I also found it more important to work on
LogiLogi itself now than on a presentation...,

Wybo

> -- 
> Bruno

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> I just committed the .svg in which the Browse and Search views are
> styled like the view logi view...
>
Great, I'll take them in a pendrive if the people need to see them.

> Some small suggestions for the browsing view might need explanation:
>
> - Removed the header for tags suggested for addition as it looked a
> bit weird to have a darkish-blue pill or line there... And this looks
> calmer...
>
yes it does...

> - The minus signs behind the tags looked like hyphens, so I replaced
> them with X'es. Also reduces the number of icon types. Still feel a
> bit mixed about this, but seemed the closest to a solution.
>
yes, mixed about this too, but crosses work well for now.

> - Filter by tag-sets is now found logis for tag-sets. Clicking a tag-
> set (both in search and browse) loads it into the browser as a new
> browse query.
>
great :)

> - Found 'exact matches', and 'sloppy matches'. Exact matches are for
> the query tags in the same order, and sloppy matches are the query
> tags in a different order, and/or with extra tags appended...
>
I like this, and I like it most with the tag-set showed as you did in
the out-of-page tests... By showing them we are deffining what is
"exact" and what is "sloppy".

>
> - At the left, outside the screen view I added two boxes that would be
> there when no logis were found for the full tagset. These are also
> handy for when an user clicks on a link for which no logis are found.
>
good too


now back to the #logilogi

-- 
Bruno

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
>
> A good web-app should be like a little angel on once's shoulder,
> making it easier to do things the right way than the wrong way... :)
>

Ok, certainly it would be nice... and also not so hard to do... :)

-- 
Bruno

> > I thought of something simmilar to what we have now, a short (maybe bit
> > longer than now) text with a read on link leading into the main logi...
>
> 
> yes, right, but still, this could be a snippet of that logi, and then
> the main logi should be disputed. It's a small detail, if it works it
> would be good.

Indeed, except maybe that it might be a magnet to spammers :) But we
can try it and see what to do about it when it's a problem.

> Also this made me think that we could have the word count play a more
> important roll, and also inform how many chars left you have that
> would fit in the snippets... that's some how very important in the
> current UI as snippets are the first thing read of the comments...
> but... just an idea for the future :)

Indeed for the future...

> > So the recent changes and tag-cloud would have tabs (they would happen
> > to be at the top :), the rest not.
>
> ok, looking forward your svgs :)

Just committed it, but still very drafty, and not really happy with
it...

> > Already made a start yesterday. Also narrowed it down by 16 pixels
> > (1024 - 16) as that's space needed by the scrollbar and window
> > sides...
> 
> Ok, I'll search the trunk.

(is under docs...)

> > Yes that sounds like the flow, also for commenting logis (but then
> > folding open at the bottom of the page). But really important will
> > then be an ajax-call between adding the tags and the title, that
> > checks and reports on any logis already existing with these tags, to
> > prevent pplz making the same point again, or missing what is already
> > written on it and might be better comments / logis.
>
> Ok, but this check is not so important, as you should check that
> before... it should help as an aid, but not crucial, right?

It is crucial, as when users go to create logi via a button and create
it in the same go where entering tags, and not like before via visiting 
a tag-set and then seeing no logi exists, they likely will not notice
it when a logi already existed...

(and telling them they have to check it is like telling people they
should not litter the street...)

A good web-app should be like a little angel on once's shoulder,
making it easier to do things the right way than the wrong way... :)

Wybo

Just committed a very drafty draft of the mainpage...

Tabs on the cloud seem to work good, also for users and groups we can
show them by nr of created / rated logis :)

(but now no space for user groups tab; also will not solve the cloud
that's filled with usernames when little logis, as user homepages are
still logis...)

Recent changed logis fit in nice, but right side is not good, also
description at the right is not beautifull...

Maybe some things need to be moved around a bit.

Any suggestions / improvements most, most welcome...

Will be working a bit more on my presentation for saturday now,

greetings,

Wybo

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Miguel Lezama <le...@gm...> wrote:
> as I know design is one thing that he is passionaite about and of
> course he is good at it. In logilogi words, I vote him in the
> peergroup Designers, he has more power now :) (oops! I dont have power
> in the Designers group).

jaja, thanks migue! well, we've been working together for many years,
you better vote for me man! jaja! :)

>
> I will try to have a more detailed review of the designs proposed, but
> don't wait for me to start working in the html migration.
>

we'll be working on schemas of what the edit process would look like
for you to do the JS work, is that right?

When will you be working? on the weekend?

greetings

-- 
Bruno

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:43 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:


>> And I think cloudtags are very useless :)
>
> ???
>
> Tag clouds you mean ? Hm, I would say they are very handy because for
> people that don't know what is there they instantly show which tags
> are there and are most popular...
>
I think miguel means that tagclouds are useless as they are now, and I
think they are too, but becouse of other factors not the tagcloud
itself.

for example, the mixture of users, concepts, groups, etc. Also, tags
should be underlined to be identified easily.

>> I think we have to do a classic list of Must, Should, May,(maybe in a
>> logi) to start finishing the muniato iteration of LogiLogi
>
> Agree with that.
>

Ok, I'll work on that after tonight reunion.


-- 
Bruno

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:35 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
>
> I thought of something simmilar to what we have now, a short (maybe bit
> longer than now) text with a read on link leading into the main logi...
>

yes, right, but still, this could be a snippet of that logi, and then
the main logi should be disputed. It's a small detail, if it works it
would be good.

Also this made me think that we could have the word count play a more
important roll, and also inform how many chars left you have that
would fit in the snippets... that's some how very important in the
current UI as snippets are the first thing read of the comments...
but... just an idea for the future :)

> One simple thing to do is just wait a bit. I mean as there will only
> be a single logi for homepages, while there will be multiple soon for
> other pages, the homepages will be pushed out of the cloud soon...
>

we'll see...

>> >> = Recent changes

> I think a sketch might help... Will do a drafty one this afternoon.
> Just for the elements.

good, I hope to have the computer with internet by tonight.


> So the recent changes and tag-cloud would have tabs (they would happen
> to be at the top :), the rest not.
>
ok, looking forward your svgs :)

> Interested in how you fixed it.
>
Ok, I'll commit it soon.

> Already made a start yesterday. Also narrowed it down by 16 pixels
> (1024 - 16) as that's space needed by the scrollbar and window
> sides...

Ok, I'll search the trunk.


>
> But on the other hand myopenid is non-free, and either setting up our
> own openid server might also be an idea... but we can't have that done
> this month.
>
> So you may show it to them as a posibillity, but must note with it
> that it could cause some few more days delay after the 23rd...

Ok, I'll see how to handle this.

> Yes that sounds like the flow, also for commenting logis (but then
> folding open at the bottom of the page). But really important will
> then be an ajax-call between adding the tags and the title, that
> checks and reports on any logis already existing with these tags, to
> prevent pplz making the same point again, or missing what is already
> written on it and might be better comments / logis.
>
Ok, but this check is not so important, as you should check that
before... it should help as an aid, but not crucial, right?


going throught the rest of the mails now...

-- 
Bruno

I just committed the .svg in which the Browse and Search views are
styled like the view logi view...

Some small suggestions for the browsing view might need explanation:

- Removed the header for tags suggested for addition as it looked a
bit weird to have a darkish-blue pill or line there... And this looks
calmer...

- The minus signs behind the tags looked like hyphens, so I replaced
them with X'es. Also reduces the number of icon types. Still feel a 
bit mixed about this, but seemed the closest to a solution.

- Filter by tag-sets is now found logis for tag-sets. Clicking a tag-
set (both in search and browse) loads it into the browser as a new 
browse query.

- Found 'exact matches', and 'sloppy matches'. Exact matches are for
the query tags in the same order, and sloppy matches are the query
tags in a different order, and/or with extra tags appended...

This is simpler for the user, as there's only 2 things to watch, and
when he's interested in looking up the tags-sets and filtering by them
he can click on of the tag-sets... Also the ordering of logis becomes
a lot simpler as we now can look at just peergroup-rating within these
2 sets, while otherwise we would have to group by tag-sets and then 
rating (a performance nightmare when there are many logis)...

- At the left, outside the screen view I added two boxes that would be
there when no logis were found for the full tagset. These are also
handy for when an user clicks on a link for which no logis are found.

greetings,

Wybo

> Hello all,
> 
> I have been following your conversations. I am a little bit lost in
> the discussion of the UI. Some times you discuss little details that I
> think we are wasting to much time over that, I think that is better if
> we choose one of you two to decide the little things. 

As said I don't think it's a good idea to assign special last word
rights to people. We should go for compromises or persuasion, and when
that does not work we can have an user-panel or vote on the list on
the issue at hand...

This of course assumes we are all reasonable people, and I think we
are most of the time :)

> But we need to do something to archieve to get a new release of
> LogiLogi for the muniato project, and stop discussing as there is
> not so much time, and I think is a good oportunity to LogiLogi to
> convice them to use LogiLogi.

I think we are already moving ahead quite a bit :)

> My orientation is always the same to have the max functionalities in
> place, more javascript and ajax as posible.

Agree with this to a large extend (apart maybe from wizzards, where
simplicity and linearity is also a value)

> And I think cloudtags are very useless :)

???

Tag clouds you mean ? Hm, I would say they are very handy because for
people that don't know what is there they instantly show which tags
are there and are most popular...

> I think we have to do a classic list of Must, Should, May,(maybe in a
> logi) to start finishing the muniato iteration of LogiLogi

Agree with that.

> About me:
> I will start to work next monday at Caterpillar in the "web
> developpment" area, I prefer to not talk about it :p, they are all
> the contrary to what an opensource project is, Monday I visited the
> enterprise and I installed the developpment plaform, an old IBM fork
> of Eclipse that really sucks. Besides that the people in the project
> are very nice.

Auch... hope nice people make up for something...

> I will try to have a more detailed review of the designs proposed, but
> don't wait for me to start working in the html migration.

'k,

Wybo

> Greetings,
> 
> Miguel

> > Agree, I suggest adding a link to the LogiLogi logi to this too.
> 
> Well, this could actually be a logi with it's title, and it could be
> the most voted contender in its kind in the general peergroup... maybe
> even different ones depending on the peergroup you are navigating?
> anyway there will only be one option now, but its a nice thing to be
> THAT open, even allow the new users to give it a try... proof of
> concept. :)

Hm, I think a whole logi would be too long for it. One mayor complaint
we received on the front-page previously was that it was too static,
with the whole text in view.

I thought of something simmilar to what we have now, a short (maybe bit
longer than now) text with a read on link leading into the main logi...

> > For users and peergroups a tag-cloud might be less usefull. Users
> > because there can only be one user for each name, so no differences in
> > size for the tags, and for peergroups because there will be not enough
> > of them at first to make a decent cloud...
>
> Ok, but I don't like the all mixed logis with Homes and users names...
> what can we do about this? that's why I propose separation... maybe
> the users tab is not a tagcloud, maybe just a list in order of
> creation.

One simple thing to do is just wait a bit. I mean as there will only
be a single logi for homepages, while there will be multiple soon for
other pages, the homepages will be pushed out of the cloud soon...

> >> = Recent changes
> >> tabs: logis, comments, links, remarks
> >
> > Hm, dunno about tabs here too. These are things one could better show
> > side by side if they are relevant... But some might be behind tabs...
> >
> > (added maybe here votes too)
> 
> Good to have votes too... I think is good if we group things in
> tabs... maybe some info should be side by side too, we should decide

I think a sketch might help... Will do a drafty one this afternoon.
Just for the elements.

> >> = New
> >> tabs: users, peergroups, usersgroups
> >
> > Same here, might want to show them at the same time...
>
> I really think we should not show so much data anywher, even in the
> home. People gets lost with so much data.

Hm, might be yes.

> Think of the 2-3 most important things, show them, and the rest in
> tabs. Thats what I think the best.

I like this idea, but besides the tag-cloud, recently changed logis, 
and new peergroups we might also want to show new usergroups and new 
users, together in a 'new' box...

For remarks and votes we might just show a count, as they are a bit
meaningless maybe after all outside the context of their logis.

So the recent changes and tag-cloud would have tabs (they would happen
to be at the top :), the rest not.

> >> Please take this thoughts as very rough brainstorming
> >>
> >> About the current design, things seem to be very possible and almost
> >> done all difficult parts as rounded's and logi together to the
> >> contenders list... Will copy to this computer and send when working
> >> right.
> >
> > 'k. Still I think we need to use at least 1 transparent png, as the
> > connection between the contenders and selected logi will otherwise
> > overlap with the other contenders... but that's no problem imho, as
> > both IE 7 and FF 2+ support them...
> 
> I don't understand well what's your point here. I've already did it
> last night! :) it works with the same logi box, in the contenders
> form, and modified so it negative margin brings it to the left and
> overlaps with the logi... it works and resizes very nicely in all
> browsers, so, this is task done.

Great :)

I saw problems here for non-transparant images because the outbending
curves of the thing around the contenders would make it overlap with
the contenders below or above, causing problems...

Interested in how you fixed it.

> > What's your thoughts on browser support ? I personally still think we
> > should be minimalistic on this to keep things maintainable. Especially
> > I think we should not sacrifice beauty or funcionality to browsers
> > that less than 5% of the people use...
>
> yes, that's fine, but the 5% will depend on which part of the world
> you count, but still, for LL central we should take international
> stats. Then, I also see that with the current approach we will have
> much less problems as the html is considered crosbrowsing in mind from
> the beginning... I still have to test it on IE6, but everything is
> going so smood and not much hacks needed... still have to do this,
> test on IE6.

Indeed. Good :)

> > PS: Shall I update the other views (browsing, search) of the UI-svg
> > too with the new coloring and improvements ? So you can show it at the
> > muniato meeting ?
> 
> ok, if you are willing to do it is great. I'll email it before the
> meeting so they can see them.

Already made a start yesterday. Also narrowed it down by 16 pixels 
(1024 - 16) as that's space needed by the scrollbar and window 
sides...

> not much left, got to work, and I'll be having some interesting
> reunions talking about this and thinking on why they should use
> logilogi. They are all positive to use a wiki right now and then move
> to logilogi. We really should focus on making logilogi easier.

Good, indeed :)

> I wanted to know your opinion on making a logilogi user account
> system, without openid... what do you think? this way we reduce
> complexity, enter name, email, pass and you're done. We get a point
> with this as it's simpler than the google accounts they need to
> validate now. We could have a internal validation system, that an
> admin shuld validate new accounts. Let me know how viable is to have
> something like this and I'll propose it as a could-be.

Hm. Mixed about this. As adding support for accounts at least also
brings stuff for mailing lost passwords, sending mail with
confirmation links on normal signups, etc...

And for an openid account it's also just name, password, email...

But on the other hand myopenid is non-free, and either setting up our
own openid server might also be an idea... but we can't have that done
this month.

So you may show it to them as a posibillity, but must note with it
that it could cause some few more days delay after the 23rd...

> Then the rest of the proces should be already more easy. I think
> create a new logi should take 2 clicks from the front page.
> 
> 1. click the "new logi" button.
> 2. taken to the edition view, add tags (blank as comming from the
> homepage), add title and body, submit.

Yes that sounds like the flow, also for commenting logis (but then
folding open at the bottom of the page). But really important will
then be an ajax-call between adding the tags and the title, that
checks and reports on any logis already existing with these tags, to
prevent pplz making the same point again, or missing what is already
written on it and might be better comments / logis.

> Down to work now, greetings, talk to you all later.

greetings,

Wybo

> -- 
> Bruno

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
>>
>> = text introduction, very important, with links to help, login, create
>> account, etc.
>
> Agree, I suggest adding a link to the LogiLogi logi to this too.

Well, this could actually be a logi with it's title, and it could be
the most voted contender in its kind in the general peergroup... maybe
even different ones depending on the peergroup you are navigating?
anyway there will only be one option now, but its a nice thing to be
THAT open, even allow the new users to give it a try... proof of
concept. :)

>
>> = Logis Tagcloud
>> tabs: primary, secondary, users home, peergroups home
>> (I know there is no primary and secondary, but still, there is :)
>
> Hm, I think we should not show differences between primary and
> secondary tags... They're just tags now.
>
Ok, maybe its better yes... let's get trouble out of the way...

> For users and peergroups a tag-cloud might be less usefull. Users
> because there can only be one user for each name, so no differences in
> size for the tags, and for peergroups because there will be not enough
> of them at first to make a decent cloud...
Ok, but I don't like the all mixed logis with Homes and users names...
what can we do about this? that's why I propose separation... maybe
the users tab is not a tagcloud, maybe just a list in order of
creation.

>
>> = Recent changes
>> tabs: logis, comments, links, remarks
>
> Hm, dunno about tabs here too. These are things one could better show
> side by side if they are relevant... But some might be behind tabs...
>
> (added maybe here votes too)

Good to have votes too... I think is good if we group things in
tabs... maybe some info should be side by side too, we should decide

>
>> = New
>> tabs: users, peergroups, usersgroups
>
> Same here, might want to show them at the same time...
>

I really think we should not show so much data anywher, even in the
home. People gets lost with so much data.

Think of the 2-3 most important things, show them, and the rest in
tabs. Thats what I think the best.

>> Please take this thoughts as very rough brainstorming
>>
>> About the current design, things seem to be very possible and almost
>> done all difficult parts as rounded's and logi together to the
>> contenders list... Will copy to this computer and send when working
>> right.
>
> 'k. Still I think we need to use at least 1 transparent png, as the
> connection between the contenders and selected logi will otherwise
> overlap with the other contenders... but that's no problem imho, as
> both IE 7 and FF 2+ support them...

I don't understand well what's your point here. I've already did it
last night! :) it works with the same logi box, in the contenders
form, and modified so it negative margin brings it to the left and
overlaps with the logi... it works and resizes very nicely in all
browsers, so, this is task done.

>
> What's your thoughts on browser support ? I personally still think we
> should be minimalistic on this to keep things maintainable. Especially
> I think we should not sacrifice beauty or funcionality to browsers
> that less than 5% of the people use...
>
yes, that's fine, but the 5% will depend on which part of the world
you count, but still, for LL central we should take international
stats. Then, I also see that with the current approach we will have
much less problems as the html is considered crosbrowsing in mind from
the beginning... I still have to test it on IE6, but everything is
going so smood and not much hacks needed... still have to do this,
test on IE6.

>
> PS: Shall I update the other views (browsing, search) of the UI-svg
> too with the new coloring and improvements ? So you can show it at the
> muniato meeting ?

ok, if you are willing to do it is great. I'll email it before the
meeting so they can see them.

not much left, got to work, and I'll be having some interesting
reunions talking about this and thinking on why they should use
logilogi. They are all positive to use a wiki right now and then move
to logilogi. We really should focus on making logilogi easier.

I wanted to know your opinion on making a logilogi user account
system, without openid... what do you think? this way we reduce
complexity, enter name, email, pass and you're done. We get a point
with this as it's simpler than the google accounts they need to
validate now. We could have a internal validation system, that an
admin shuld validate new accounts. Let me know how viable is to have
something like this and I'll propose it as a could-be.

Then the rest of the proces should be already more easy. I think
create a new logi should take 2 clicks from the front page.

1. click the "new logi" button.
2. taken to the edition view, add tags (blank as comming from the
homepage), add title and body, submit.

Down to work now, greetings, talk to you all later.

-- 
Bruno

Hello all,

I have been following your conversations. I am a little bit lost in
the discussion of the UI. Some times you discuss little details that I
think we are wasting to much time over that, I think that is better if
we choose one of you two to decide the little things. I vote for Bruno
as I know design is one thing that he is passionaite about and of
course he is good at it. In logilogi words, I vote him in the
peergroup Designers, he has more power now :) (oops! I dont have power
in the Designers group).
I am not proposing that for big changes, I still think that this is a
communnity project :)
But we need to do something to archieve to get a new release of
LogiLogi for the muniato project, and stop discussing as there is not
so much time, and I think is a good oportunity to LogiLogi to convice
them to use LogiLogi.

My orientation is always the same to have the max functionalities in
place, more javascript and ajax as posible.
And I think cloudtags are very useless :)

I think we have to do a classic list of Must, Should, May,(maybe in a
logi) to start finishing the muniato iteration of LogiLogi


About me:
I will start to work next monday at Caterpillar in the "web
developpment" area, I prefer to not  talk about it :p, they are all
the contrary to what an opensource project is, Monday I visited the
enterprise and I installed the developpment plaform, an old IBM fork
of Eclipse that really sucks. Besides that the people in the project
are very nice.


I will try to have a more detailed review of the designs proposed, but
don't wait for me to start working in the html migration.

Greetings,

Miguel

> > Happy :)
> >
> > (also the blues are good, I am very positive about the taints of blue,
> > and now the pplz who didn't like green will like it too :)
> >
> > Where did you get the color-scheme ?
>
> It's from the latex pallet from inkscape that windoze version has,
> nite colours. We should have skinable LL soon, and then there will be
> for choice, and very light ones could be good for long readings, like
> us that are lots of time on LL :)

Nice, and indeed :)

> > Still I do agree there must be decisions made now and then, and that
> > we must move on too, but they never should be last words at which no
> > reasoned critique is possible...
>
> clearly that's not advisable, last word is same as "decisions made now
> and then"...

'k

> > (When the project gets bigger there of course can be sub-groups for
> > different domains & delegates and such, but they should always consist
> > of a few pplz with equal rights...)
> 
> totally agree.. but, we have already lot's of work in all areas...
> let's keep up the work :)

Ok (main idea here is that decisions of any importance should always
be made by at least 2 or 3 pplz...).

> > And also we should have either wizzards that take the whole screen,
> > even the space of the title-bar (looking like overboxes, but acting
> > like normal pages), or screens...
> 
> yes, that is a very good possibility... We will evolve in this aspect
> too, we should find a place for navigation trace reference or similar,
> but for now white screen and wizard is good... We'd have plenty of
> space, that would let us be creative. We should cover al aspects of

Not just creative but it also would keep the screen clean for users.

> usability to make a few clicks (or tabs) editing things. And we will
> have it.

Indeed, as few clicks as possible...

> > For eye-candy reasons we can leave the logi in it's exact place when
> > adding links for example, and replace the page around it with the
> > wizzard...
> 
> So, maybe the wizard should go at the level of the secondary tabs? I
> think it would be good. A the place of labels have a wizard steps
> navigation.

Hm. I was thinking of removing everything, also title-bar in wizzards,
and have the top-description we have now in wizzards above the logi...

And to be honest I think most wizzards only would need one screen.

(Especially as the former biggest one, the tag-editing, is now a lot
smaller without the difference between content and context tags...)

But indeed it might be an idea to have multi-screen wizzards,
especially if we can make them fast by pre-loading the coming screens
and only submit in the end via JS... but might be quite some work for
now... but in the end might be better indeed.

> Miguel, please participate on this, you can work offlinte on this too!
> I'm doing it right now whith the html, so I can't do much with svg as
> I'm not on my computer to go online, etc.

Indeed, Miguel :)

How are things with you anyway ? Like your new job ? And what exactly
do you do ? (mostly programming, adminning, etc ?)

> > Also I think - guess - we can keep many of the wizzards in relatively
> > unmodified form, except having them as non-overboxes, and some
> > coloring to make them fit with the new UI...
> 
> Yes, the already structure with a little make up..

Indeed.

> >
> > Indeed a kickass UI! Very happy with it! Good work of us all!
>
> Yes, I hope this gets more people involved back into the project too...

It will I guess. I mean the back-end is a lot faster now too, and can
sustain growth. And now with this sublime UI & usabillity growth will
definitely come :)

> > saturday. Might also do some sketches or at least lists of elements for
> > the mainpage and or edit...
>
> Yes we should, here is part of the other mail I was writing:
>
> still we have to work on the frontpage... the secondary tabs will
> certainly help, and we could also have some other sidebars with tabs
> too, or a third tabs box... we should start working on this. First
> what we want to show, then how to do it.
> 
> Just quick thoughts:
> 
> = text introduction, very important, with links to help, login, create
> account, etc.

Agree, I suggest adding a link to the LogiLogi logi to this too.

> = Logis Tagcloud
> tabs: primary, secondary, users home, peergroups home
> (I know there is no primary and secondary, but still, there is :)

Hm, I think we should not show differences between primary and
secondary tags... They're just tags now.

For users and peergroups a tag-cloud might be less usefull. Users
because there can only be one user for each name, so no differences in
size for the tags, and for peergroups because there will be not enough
of them at first to make a decent cloud...

> = Recent changes
> tabs: logis, comments, links, remarks

Hm, dunno about tabs here too. These are things one could better show
side by side if they are relevant... But some might be behind tabs...

(added maybe here votes too)

> = New
> tabs: users, peergroups, usersgroups

Same here, might want to show them at the same time...

> Please take this thoughts as very rough brainstorming
> 
> About the current design, things seem to be very possible and almost
> done all difficult parts as rounded's and logi together to the
> contenders list... Will copy to this computer and send when working
> right.

'k. Still I think we need to use at least 1 transparent png, as the
connection between the contenders and selected logi will otherwise
overlap with the other contenders... but that's no problem imho, as 
both IE 7 and FF 2+ support them...

What's your thoughts on browser support ? I personally still think we
should be minimalistic on this to keep things maintainable. Especially
I think we should not sacrifice beauty or funcionality to browsers
that less than 5% of the people use...

> On Thursday we'll have a muniato meeting, hope to have some news then.
> I show the UI to some of them and got very good feedback sofar :) :)

Great, and indeed they will love it too!

Wybo

PS: Shall I update the other views (browsing, search) of the UI-svg
too with the new coloring and improvements ? So you can show it at the
muniato meeting ?

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
>
> Happy :)
>
> (also the blues are good, I am very positive about the taints of blue,
> and now the pplz who didn't like green will like it too :)
>
> Where did you get the color-scheme ?
>
It's from the latex pallet from inkscape that windoze version has,
nite colours. We should have skinable LL soon, and then there will be
for choice, and very light ones could be good for long readings, like
us that are lots of time on LL :)

>
> Still I do agree there must be decisions made now and then, and that
> we must move on too, but they never should be last words at which no
> reasoned critique is possible...
>
clearly that's not advisable, last word is same as "decisions made now
and then"...

> (When the project gets bigger there of course can be sub-groups for
> different domains & delegates and such, but they should always consist
> of a few pplz with equal rights...)
>
totally agree.. but, we have already lot's of work in all areas...
let's keep up the work :)

>> And yes, the web is big, and this project is libre. I also hope you
>> appreciate my work at logilogi.
>
> I do, I do very much.
>
thank you Wybo, maybe I was needing that...

> Also a mistake we both made in the design-process was not providing
> enough explanations / objective stuff with our changes, especially
> when things started bouncing back and forth... And maybe also not
> saying enough things ahead of time...
>
we got facinated with the UI itself and couldnt help to just go down
and paint, cut, move stuff arround :)

> For example an idea on the editing window is whether to have the query
> bar with the tags in view or not. I think we should, as it provides
> context and editing is a bit too simple for a wizzard...
>
> And also we should have either wizzards that take the whole screen,
> even the space of the title-bar (looking like overboxes, but acting
> like normal pages), or screens...

yes, that is a very good possibility... We will evolve in this aspect
too, we should find a place for navigation trace reference or similar,
but for now white screen and wizard is good... We'd have plenty of
space, that would let us be creative. We should cover al aspects of
usability to make a few clicks (or tabs) editing things. And we will
have it.

> This to prevent all kinds of awkward choices of what to add and what
> not, and also to make things simple for the user. Everything in screen
> is relevant and positioned with clear steps...
>
good.

> For eye-candy reasons we can leave the logi in it's exact place when
> adding links for example, and replace the page around it with the
> wizzard...

So, maybe the wizard should go at the level of the secondary tabs? I
think it would be good. A the place of labels have a wizard steps
navigation.

Miguel, please participate on this, you can work offlinte on this too!
I'm doing it right now whith the html, so I can't do much with svg as
I'm not on my computer to go online, etc.

>
> These are just ideas, but knowing in which direction pplz think can
> be handy when explaining or proposing other directions or
> suggestions...
certainly we agree.

>
> Also I think - guess - we can keep many of the wizzards in relatively
> unmodified form, except having them as non-overboxes, and some
> coloring to make them fit with the new UI...

Yes, the already structure with a little make up..

>
> Indeed a kickass UI! Very happy with it! Good work of us all!
>
Yes, I hope this gets more people involved back into the project too...


> saturday. Might also do some sketches or at least lists of elements for
> the mainpage and or edit...
>
Yes we should, here is part of the other mail I was writing:

still we have to work on the frontpage... the secondary tabs will
certainly help, and we could also have some other sidebars with tabs
too, or a third tabs box... we should start working on this. First
what we want to show, then how to do it.

Just quick thoughts:

= text introduction, very important, with links to help, login, create
account, etc.

= Logis Tagcloud
tabs: primary, secondary, users home, peergroups home
(I know there is no primary and secondary, but still, there is :)

= Recent changes
tabs: logis, comments, links, remarks

= New
tabs: users, peergroups, usersgroups

Please take this thoughts as very rough brainstorming

About the current design, things seem to be very possible and almost
done all difficult parts as rounded's and logi together to the
contenders list... Will copy to this computer and send when working
right.

On Thursday we'll have a muniato meeting, hope to have some news then.
I show the UI to some of them and got very good feedback sofar :) :)

> LogiLogi for all, all for LogiLogi :),

viva logilogi!!! :)

-- 
Bruno

First of all I'm happy to hear that things were largely based on a
misunderstanding, and are well now :)

Replying to parts below.

> Hi all,
> 
> I've been travelling to uruguay so didn't have much time, but been
> working on the html too.

Ttravelling indeed takes time... but I usually also like how gives 
experiences and time to think :) 

(even short distances one has travelled 100's of times)

> > I just committed another version of UI_proposal_D_softblues.svg
> >
> > - We could show the selected logi by simply connecting the lines
> > around the logi to it. I find that a very elegant solution (idea
> > by Charles in a conversation)...
> 
> very beautifull, love this type of stuff :)

'k Good we have the same xp, also loved it at sight :)

> > - Buttons round or little rounded is, I think not such a big issue
> > at all, so I've now made them with rounded corners instead of
> > round again.
> 
> I like them much more with rounded corners, great :)

:)

> > - Coloring, I think with the tags having a color that stands out
> > might be better, and at least the line around the logi conflicts
> > a lot less with the little view, edit, insert tabs.
> 
> great too, and the mix of green and blue works good. This is just
> becouse they are both soft colors, as green and blue don't usually go
> well together, but they do here.

Happy :)

(also the blues are good, I am very positive about the taints of blue,
and now the pplz who didn't like green will like it too :)

Where did you get the color-scheme ?

> > I also refreshed the UI_proposal_D_softblues.png
> >
> > I hope all is well and we can collaborate on the UI. Don't know how it
> > is for you two Bruno, Charles (and Miguel ?), but for me this is the
> > first time I work on a design in a team so I hope I'm doing well on
> > teamwork...
> 
> I hope I'm doing good too...

Apparently :)

> > And I am firm on this. No little kingdoms, no blind trust, no
> > delegation to single persons, and if anyone does not like that,
> > the net is big...
> >
> > Not that it's that far now, but just for the record, and everyone
> > knows where I stand on such issues.
> 
> Ok, it's good you're making this clear, and I certainly support this
> too, but I need to make clear my previous suggestion since it has been
> terribly missunderstood and what I proposed previouslly is what is
> already happening, if not things would not move forward.
> 
> I've always been a big fan of distributed, destructured team works,
> you can ask Miguel, that has always been a greatness and a weakness,
> as people is not used to work this way.

In FOSS many projects they do... Though there are some well known ones
that don't either... but I agree it can be one of the most challenging
ways of working.

> What I proposed is just to have one person to have the last word, this
> time about the UI design, but should be like this for all domains.
> This doesn't mean that the team work don't takes place, it takes
> place, and it could also be powered by the person that decide the
> direction. Obviouslly this desissions should be only about small
> details, put the "add logi" button here or there, put images profiles
> or not in the logi, etc, etc. Small details that took us too long to
> solve, and we would have move forward faster if we have just decided
> on a main UI svg which was the current path. This way we also see the
> design proposals in parallel to a finished one that evolves and gets
> enriched by the others...
>
> Again, this sort of desissions are already been taken by you Wybo, and
> I think it's fine, as we need to move forward.

Hm... as I see it they are not taken as in me (or anyone else) having
last word rights or something like that. If I would have had, we would
have had a bad UI now I guess :) 

I want to strive for unanimity through improvement, communication and
compromises... and as the group of people working on the project is
still relatively small, I see that as something attainable... When it
is not, or not anymore I think only either a survey/panel of users or
votes on the list are a legitimate way to come to a decision... Never
'last word'-rights or any other special rights of any of us.

Still I do agree there must be decisions made now and then, and that
we must move on too, but they never should be last words at which no
reasoned critique is possible...

(When the project gets bigger there of course can be sub-groups for
different domains & delegates and such, but they should always consist 
of a few pplz with equal rights...)

> And yes, the web is big, and this project is libre. I also hope you
> appreciate my work at logilogi.

I do, I do very much.

> Please, try to put a positive view on what I'm saying, as this media
> and the little we know eachother in person could lead to
> missunderstandings.

Indeed. That's a serious problem with i-net communication.

Also a mistake we both made in the design-process was not providing
enough explanations / objective stuff with our changes, especially 
when things started bouncing back and forth... And maybe also not
saying enough things ahead of time...

For example an idea on the editing window is whether to have the query
bar with the tags in view or not. I think we should, as it provides
context and editing is a bit too simple for a wizzard...

And also we should have either wizzards that take the whole screen,
even the space of the title-bar (looking like overboxes, but acting
like normal pages), or screens...

This to prevent all kinds of awkward choices of what to add and what
not, and also to make things simple for the user. Everything in screen
is relevant and positioned with clear steps...

For eye-candy reasons we can leave the logi in it's exact place when
adding links for example, and replace the page around it with the
wizzard...

These are just ideas, but knowing in which direction pplz think can
be handy when explaining or proposing other directions or 
suggestions...

Also I think - guess - we can keep many of the wizzards in relatively
unmodified form, except having them as non-overboxes, and some
coloring to make them fit with the new UI...

> As you said and I said before, we've as a team got to a better UI than
> we would have each of us apart, and more than that, I think we have a
> F**** kickass UI... I'm really glad with it.

Indeed a kickass UI! Very happy with it! Good work of us all!

> let's move on!!

Ok, we agree then hereby :)

> I'll be working offline for a coupple of days probably as I don't have
> a connection, but working on the HTML.

Good. I will make the controllers and views work with the xapian links
search, and prepare my presentation for the Software Freedom Day this
saturday. Might also do some sketches or at least lists of elements for 
the mainpage and or edit...

LogiLogi for all, all for LogiLogi :),

Wybo

> Greetings to you all.
> 
> -- 
> Bruno

Hi all,

I've been travelling to uruguay so didn't have much time, but been
working on the html too.

I was replying to the previous email but now things already changed,
I'll try to keep up now.

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 7:54 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> I just committed another version of UI_proposal_D_softblues.svg
>
> - We could show the selected logi by simply connecting the lines
> around the logi to it. I find that a very elegant solution (idea
> by Charles in a conversation)...
>

very beautifull, love this type of stuff :)

> - Buttons round or little rounded is, I think not such a big issue
> at all, so I've now made them with rounded corners instead of
> round again.
>

I like them much more with rounded corners, great :)

> - Coloring, I think with the tags having a color that stands out
> might be better, and at least the line around the logi conflicts
> a lot less with the little view, edit, insert tabs.
>

great too, and the mix of green and blue works good. This is just
becouse they are both soft colors, as green and blue don't usually go
well together, but they do here.

> I also refreshed the UI_proposal_D_softblues.png
>
> I hope all is well and we can collaborate on the UI. Don't know how it
> is for you two Bruno, Charles (and Miguel ?), but for me this is the
> first time I work on a design in a team so I hope I'm doing well on
> teamwork...
>
I hope I'm doing good too...

> And why a team ? I think that it does bring improved results, and that
> in the end is best for the project. I mean if you look at it the last
> few designs, they were better than anything any of us has done
> individually in the past, at least for design-work & proposals I've
> seen of any of us - & as far as I can judge...
>
> And I am firm on this. No little kingdoms, no blind trust, no
> delegation to single persons, and if anyone does not like that,
> the net is big...
>
> Not that it's that far now, but just for the record, and everyone
> knows where I stand on such issues.
>
Ok, it's good you're making this clear, and I certainly support this
too, but I need to make clear my previous suggestion since it has been
terribly missunderstood and what I proposed previouslly is what is
already happening, if not things would not move forward.

I've always been a big fan of distributed, destructured team works,
you can ask Miguel, that has always been a greatness and a weakness,
as people is not used to work this way.

What I proposed is just to have one person to have the last word, this
time about the UI design, but should be like this for all domains.
This doesn't mean that the team work don't takes place, it takes
place, and it could also be powered by the person that decide the
direction. Obviouslly this desissions should be only about small
details, put the "add logi" button here or there, put images profiles
or not in the logi, etc, etc. Small details that took us too long to
solve, and we would have move forward faster if we have just decided
on a main UI svg which was the current path. This way we also see the
design proposals in parallel to a finished one that evolves and gets
enriched by the others...

Again, this sort of desissions are already been taken by you Wybo, and
I think it's fine, as we need to move forward.

And yes, the web is big, and this project is libre. I also hope you
appreciate my work at logilogi.

Please, try to put a positive view on what I'm saying, as this media
and the little we know eachother in person could lead to
missunderstandings.

As you said and I said before, we've as a team got to a better UI than
we would have each of us apart, and more than that, I think we have a
F**** kickass UI... I'm really glad with it.

let's move on!!

I'll be working offline for a coupple of days probably as I don't have
a connection, but working on the HTML.

Greetings to you all.

-- 
Bruno

Lo, while fixing some things in the Context & Link-classes I came
across a choice that might be relevant.

Currently home-pages, and main-pages have a special 'role'. This is
handy so a bit of extra information can be showed for them, like links
to the user's recent logis, his ranking, and an RSS-feed & the like...
(& similar for groups)

But this role is also a part of links, as in ~home, for homepages
(so Eduard_Edison/User~home would be a typical homepage)

But while they are handy in links, to make sure one gets the home
page, they are kind of ugly, and not really needed for the user to
see... so I was wondering if in the to_s(:for => :show) we need to
show them (like in incoming links, to have ~home appended).

Currently we do, but I am pro not showing them...

greetings,

Wybo

I just committed another version of UI_proposal_D_softblues.svg

Improvements:

- We could show the selected logi by simply connecting the lines
around the logi to it. I find that a very elegant solution (idea
by Charles in a conversation)...

- Buttons round or little rounded is, I think not such a big issue
at all, so I've now made them with rounded corners instead of 
round again.

- Coloring, I think with the tags having a color that stands out 
might be better, and at least the line around the logi conflicts
a lot less with the little view, edit, insert tabs.

I also refreshed the UI_proposal_D_softblues.png

I hope all is well and we can collaborate on the UI. Don't know how it
is for you two Bruno, Charles (and Miguel ?), but for me this is the
first time I work on a design in a team so I hope I'm doing well on
teamwork...

And why a team ? I think that it does bring improved results, and that
in the end is best for the project. I mean if you look at it the last
few designs, they were better than anything any of us has done
individually in the past, at least for design-work & proposals I've
seen of any of us - & as far as I can judge...

And I am firm on this. No little kingdoms, no blind trust, no
delegation to single persons, and if anyone does not like that,
the net is big...

Not that it's that far now, but just for the record, and everyone
knows where I stand on such issues.

greetings,

Wybo

First of all I just committed the UI_proposal_D_softblues.svg without
the connecting bit between the title-bar and the query-bar...

Did this after some thinking on the train to Groningen... I mean if u
like it without (& about half of other's too) we can do it without...

Also 2 more things improved I missed in the mail & a small addition

- The buttons; made them a bit more rounded again. Don't know but
seemed to fit in better and look more harmonious. But can also be
square if you really like it.

- Double dots - these ':' - were removed where I saw them as I think
they are nice for in books, but in a good design from the placing it
should be clear that something is a label for something else...

++ an addition on the small clouds and wheither embedded; The reason I
liked embedded more is because if we show them over the UI they will
be over other things, blocking those from view, also the standard
pop-over-clouds take too much space; for example to have one for
remarks...

greetings,

Wybo