logilogi-list Mailing List for LogiLogi - Software Libre for the Web (Page 11)

A short note from the Methods XIII conference in Leeds, hi :) Still
have to prep my presentation for thursday, so quite busy :)

> I'm trying to install LL at my server and have some problems now. The
> test doesn't work and through this error:
> 
> wrong number of arguments (2 for 1)
> /var/www/virtual/overbits.com/logilogi/trunk/lib/tasks/doc.rake:21:in `task'

This error is caused by an old version of Rake. It's best to download
gems from the rails site, the ruby from apt is ok, but the gems are
not.

> was trying to configure apache with fcgi, so needed to install fcgi
> for ruby, and then I started with problems with some packages, I don't
> thanks...

I never tried Apache, as Lighttpd was better in every respect for
Rails and PHP hosting; the two languages I have websites running with,
so I can't help you with that. Note however that for demo purposes
mongrel/webrick will do.

Wybo

> -- 
> Bruno

Hi all,

I'm trying to install LL at my server and have some problems now. The
test doesn't work and through this error:


root@ns1 /v/w/v/o/l/trunk> rake test --trace
(in /var/www/virtual/overbits.com/logilogi/trunk)
rake aborted!
wrong number of arguments (2 for 1)
/var/www/virtual/overbits.com/logilogi/trunk/lib/tasks/doc.rake:21:in `task'
/var/www/virtual/overbits.com/logilogi/trunk/lib/tasks/doc.rake:21
/usr/lib/ruby/1.8/rake.rb:1548:in `in_namespace'
/usr/lib/ruby/1.8/rake.rb:640:in `namespace'
/var/www/virtual/overbits.com/logilogi/trunk/lib/tasks/doc.rake:3
/usr/lib/ruby/1.8/rake.rb:1548:in `in_namespace'
/usr/lib/ruby/1.8/rake.rb:640:in `namespace'
/var/www/virtual/overbits.com/logilogi/trunk/lib/tasks/doc.rake:1
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/activesupport-2.1.0/lib/active_support/dependencies.rb:502:in
`load'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/activesupport-2.1.0/lib/active_support/dependencies.rb:502:in
`load'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/activesupport-2.1.0/lib/active_support/dependencies.rb:354:in
`new_constants_in'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/activesupport-2.1.0/lib/active_support/dependencies.rb:502:in
`load'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rails-2.1.0/lib/tasks/rails.rb:7
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rails-2.1.0/lib/tasks/rails.rb:7:in `each'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rails-2.1.0/lib/tasks/rails.rb:7
/usr/local/lib/site_ruby/1.8/rubygems/custom_require.rb:27:in
`gem_original_require'
/usr/local/lib/site_ruby/1.8/rubygems/custom_require.rb:27:in `require'
/var/www/virtual/overbits.com/logilogi/trunk/Rakefile:10
/usr/lib/ruby/1.8/rake.rb:1828:in `load'
/usr/lib/ruby/1.8/rake.rb:1828:in `load_rakefile'
/usr/lib/ruby/1.8/rake.rb:1900:in `run'
/usr/bin/rake:4


The problem was like this. I first installed ruby, gems, from
aptitude. Then I installed rails, which was the wrong version and LL
told me what version to install. I installed version 2.1. Till then
everything was working fine, I did a test and it was working. Then I
was trying to configure apache with fcgi, so needed to install fcgi
for ruby, and then I started with problems with some packages, I don't
remember what was exactly. I don't know when it stop working and now
that error is shown. The script/server runs, but the database is
empty, and cant run rake dev:db:redo...

I'm running ruby-1.8.6

any clue?

thanks...

-- 
Bruno

My short reply to the big-mail...

>> = Stallman
> He said something about my hearth being in the right place
>
That's something very nice he said!

>> I also would like to know what he said about LL itself, as a project,
>> did he liked it?
>
> He couldn't use it as he does not use a web-browser as far as I've
> heard/experienced. He seems to use wget to fetch his web-pages. So
> web2.0 apps stand no chanche with him.
>
wow, that's radical! interesting... I'd love to have LL work with Lynx! :)

>> = Roadmap
> I agree we should rethink, but things should fit in with splitting it
> up into separate services.
>

certainly splitting up in services is they way to go.

>
> To be honest my idea on this is to put this problem in the fridge for
> now, and then when we take it out again, a solution like changing tags
> to concepts again, and then allowing the association of words with
> those, but keep it simple and allow every word only once.
>
> That might circumvent the over-complex auto-resolve stuff we had
> before for dealing with words with multiple meanings.
>
> We will be able to auto-set defaults for tag-languages by looking at
> the languages of most logis tagged with them.
>

Interesting solutions... I also see language like a political frontier
in this case, which we should eradicate somehow... It would be nice to
talk about this at LL, I certainly would like to learn from what you
have to say.

>

>
> I am sorry, but we have to keep in mind that we are limited in both
> the work we can do and the complexity that current day servers can
> handle at usable speeds...
>

yes, right... I don't take computing time in count and it certainly is relevant.

>
> Here is a contradiction I think, with the idea of using tags for
> locating logi's in the simulated dir-structure, and using tags in
> large maximalist amounts... In my opinion LogiLogi should be
> relatively minimalistic in nr of tags used. Also tagging should be
> effortless, in that naming the location of the logi is doing the
> tagging at the same time. Not much is needed after that.

When thinking of LL for massive use, I think popular logis will have
many tags and that they should exist and this is good, but also they
should be ranked and ordered. While we have this freezed up, we could
still discuss how we would implement it and maybe do some experiments
too...

>
> I've been thinking about changing the descriptions for the TreeNav
> menu to "narrow context", and "choose content", or something like
> that...
>

sounds good, mabye just "other content" "other context"...

> And maybe, just maybe we might have to hide the difference between
> these tag-types from the users, and not allow extra content and

this could be something good I think, but maybe it brings more chaos too...

> context tags anymore, and later just allow people to "copy" or "move"
> logis to different "locations" (then instantiating the tags either
> as part of the main link or as extra tags).
>

it's interesting, it's certainly very different form of explaining the
same concept. Instead of tagging (and that tag being representative of
many logis), move the logi to the tag, or "locations"...

>> = Ratings in other peer-groups
>
> Cool idea, we currently have this in the form of 'view', 'ratings';
> was for now removed from the main display for simplicity. What do
> others think about it ? Miguel ?

we could add this to the main display... I'll give it a try next time
I play with the UI :)

>
>> = What is logilogi for?
> As I see it LogiLogi is intended for philosophers, for working out new
> ideas, and exploring new concenpts. The peergroup-system, the rating
> but also the dir-structure with dynamic resolving are all aiming
> towards this goal. Especially being able to write about different
> aspects of concepts and/or ideas in sub-(sub, etc)-dirs is important
> here, and it was also quoted as one of the wished for features by the
> philosophers interviewed by the first Gip-team (in Dutch:
> http://logilogi.wiki.sourceforge.net/philosopher_interview_1,
> http://logilogi.wiki.sourceforge.net/philosopher_interview_2)
>

Still, this is the objective, and what it is intended for, but people
will use it for other things, and actually at ll.org they will write
about whatever they want, maybe not rational at all, maybe not
logical. We shall not care about this and it will be solved by
peer-groups and rankings, but still, who are we to say what is
rational and what's not? :)

>> = Bulk logis

We should have a policy about this. The admin should not intervene,
and is good that anonymous user share rights :)


> Luckily enougt it will still be quite some time untill it is so far,
> as for quite some time there will be enough separation as long as
> logis are reasonably tagged (poetry, history, etc).

that will be nice :) till then...

> Will be a problem indeed, but adding rel = nofollow should fix this
> when the problem is there.
>
that will not solve the problem, but, we'll see what to do.

>> = Deleting logis
>
> But the detatching (making anonymous) sounds good too, this at least
> is what currently happens when ans user deletes his account.
>

oh, good.


>
>> = Search engines optimization campaign
>
> Good idea, I just added a task for this. TODO add task

We should really take this in count, logilogi is very good at ranking,
just take a look at what I wrote:

http://www.google.com/search?q=knol+fetures&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:es-AR:official&client=firefox-a
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aes-AR%3Aofficial&hs=jGQ&q=knol+weaknesses&btnG=Search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aes-AR%3Aofficial&hs=Xwk&q=knol+features&btnG=Search

Then I'll write the Wikipedia vs Knol wiki :)

>> = Donations
> untill we get donations from the general public. But it's good it's
> there in case a Shuttleworth comes by :)
>
jaja!

>
>> I might be able to do the video editing tomorrow to upload it...
>> maybe it's too late.
>
> Looking forward to it :)

Well, I got a video, but it's soooo bad that I prefer not to upload
it, but I could share it with you (and the list) if you want... My dad
film it by parts, and then edited, so it's also not complete...

>> I taped my talk which could be of use as it's spanish, and when I
>> get it on ogg I could upload it to logilogi.org or maybe
>> foundation.LL.  Also, I'd like to write to the blog my experience
>> too, if you think so :) where to link to the video.
>
> Blog-article would be good for that. If you want I can put it on the
> foundation-server.

I'll try to record better the next talk here at BsAs and we could upload that.

>
> :) As a reply to why I did not introduce myself in the presentation:
> first of all it is not about me, but about LogiLogi, and seconly I
> don't have that many academic creds yet, so it would not impress them
> anyway. No the self is something for corridor-sessions and the bar :)
>

Well, I kind of share your vision and feel the same, but others
suggest me this and I now understand that it is important. I don't
even have a degree, of almost anything, but it's important to make
clear that you are a professional of the web, a philosopher, a happy
person, whatever you feel introduces yourself. It's about logilogi,
but also about you, you are talking to them, why? how did this guy got
here?... just my first experience...

> & interesting. The Reality of Reality. (TODO create a logi)
>
looking forward for your kick off with "the meaning of life", part one :) jaja!

>>
>> This logi you've just extended is certainly the best I've read
>> explaining the need for freedom on the web. Also, I'd appreciate
>> further reading if you have.
>
> There is not so much further reading. I added one to the links,
> autonomo.us, a recently started blog on this.
>

Very intersting... will read further later.

>
>> = Rating over changes
>
> We might do something like removing the remaining power of the earlier
> vote and then add the new one. Think this is possible, you can add a
> low priority task for it.

Ok, done.

a question about this. How is the rating decrease exactly working
right now? For what I see, logis rates decrease to cero?


>
>> = Writing from peergroup?
>> Does it matter what peer-group we are in to post a logi?
>
> Currently not, I've been thinking about adding an auto-vote by the
> author when posting from a peergroup.
>

that could work right.

> It is true, splitting texts over logis the way Kalle did is not the
> way to go but in this case he did it because he used these bits in a
> paper too, and he quickly pasted them in.
>
yes, sure I understand, just using this as an example.


> About the slowness, I just added a task for it, removing the
> transparency makes it faster. And for the overboxes in general; I
> think it makes things a lot simpler, because there's only one thing at
> the screen at the same time. We'll have to usabillity test it with
> some new pplz, but I think it is a good thing.
>
We should test it. I think it's bringing problems, but I'm not sure about it.

>> Well, some things I could imagine we could show are for example, the
>> information icon's text, instead of making popovers for them, we could
>> who the info on the interactive panel... this panel should be position
>> fixed so it's always at the same possition... It's actually a vague

> I think this idea is really good, as it could also work as a spot to
> show flash-messages.
>
> Maximum sizes might be a problem.

another problem would be when you scroll down the page and don't see
the box. This brings back an idea I've been thinking for some time. We
could have some tipe of logi-tool-bar that would be fixed positioned
either at top or bottom so we have this tools always at hand :)


> We may also be KISS in these complexity levels. I'd go for at max 2
> levels, and just regarding the amount of details shown and showing
> help-icons.

The simple and advanced mode could be what we work at for the project
at Uruguay, and then build a simple interface as default so it's
easier to understand.


That's it for now... uff, it was a pain to write and read this big
mail.. I will try not to do this again :S

later! :)
--
Bruno

I decided to already post it even with the TODO's included. I will
reply to the TODO's/do the TODO's while in Leeds & when I'm back.

I will be back on the 13th.

Wybo

---

Hereby the long mail, a reply to many previous mails which I still did
not reply fully to. I'm typing this during some off moments while
staying with 40 pplz in a rented scouting-building + campsite.

I replied to most parts, but also left out some small bits responded
to elsewhere in the mail, and such.

> = Stallman
> It's great you got to talk to Stallman, although it was to know he has
> different view. Does he thinks LL's view and activism not good?

He said something about my hearth being in the right place, but in
general he saw Web-freedom as a lesser freedom.

> I also would like to know what he said about LL itself, as a project,
> did he liked it?

He couldn't use it as he does not use a web-browser as far as I've
heard/experienced. He seems to use wget to fetch his web-pages. So 
web2.0 apps stand no chanche with him.

> = Roadmap
> I believe we should all together trace the next-steps and road map in
> detail. For example, I strongly believe we have to make a stop, and
> rethink some aspects of LL and work over them before continuing to
> further development of the API, which would be the greatest expansion.

I agree we should rethink, but things should fit in with splitting it
up into separate services.

> = Democratization of development
> One of the future plans traced by Wybo was to include some democratic
> process in the development, which I think is great, and this also
> triggers lot's of other stuff that I've been thinking off for some
> time. Also this remembers me of leparlement, which is a fast way of
> searching democratic consensus :)

TODO demo

> == Developing over LL.org
> I've proposed this before, and some people had suggested the same
> thing after my talk, and I think now we are ready to start walking
> this way. We should get LL development to logilogi.org, and start
> using our own tool for LL's own development, in the end, we are always
> debating/exchanging ideas over the list/irc.

Upto some point this is a good idea. Especially for the more
philosophical & theoretical things we're discussing now. But the list
will nevertheless have it's uses, especially for things that are more
temporal like reporting on development, welcoming pplz, and stuff like
that.

> = Tags
> This is a returning topic. We currently have two big issues with tags:
> 
> == Query Vs. Dir structure
> This was brought back in my last large-mail about the new UI proposal
> [0] in the section "Navigation bar - too many tags". Basically, I
> tihnk we should opt for one way or the other but both the same, in the
> url and search bar and I believe the Query to be the most intuitive
> one.

This is, I think something about which I think that it is quite
central to LogiLogi TODO

> == Logi-lists
> I introduce this idea first in order to use for my next proposal for
> internationalization.
> 
> Logi lists are just what we have right now at the laguage settings
> plus going further and mixing lists across users/peergroups. This way,

Lists of contenders you mean I understood here from the chat.

To clarify; currently these are 2 different criteria. It first looks
for logis in your preferred languages, in order (if not in english,
then in dutch, etc), and then if it finds more than one, the ratings
are used to decide between those.

Here I used the principle of separating dimensions (TODO MAKE logi)

> the order would be a rating and thus we could apply an algorithm like
> the logis ranking does. This would be just one of the many ways there
> is for voting/ranking lists.
> 
> == Internationalization of tags
> We should pay attention to this. Right now it is a bit confusing since
> tags have no language. We talk about this before. There is no easy
> solution and we should discuss how to solve this. I would guess Wybo
> already has this in mind, what is your view on this?

To be honest my idea on this is to put this problem in the fridge for
now, and then when we take it out again, a solution like changing tags
to concepts again, and then allowing the association of words with
those, but keep it simple and allow every word only once.

That might circumvent the over-complex auto-resolve stuff we had
before for dealing with words with multiple meanings.

We will be able to auto-set defaults for tag-languages by looking at
the languages of most logis tagged with them.

> Here are my thoughts:
> 
> LL tags should be sorted and filtered, and should have some properties
> like language. I think for this we should apply some concepts we
> already use for logis mixed with list sorting as a way of voting. This
> would be:
> 
>  * I can rearrange the tags by dragging them which is a vote (a set of tags)
>  * the peergroups and power/weight applies for the rankings
>  * tags are displayed in many languages at the same time, as far as
> they are in my lang list at settings. (language list should show the
> option to chose which langs and not only sorting)
>  * how many tags are displayed can be determined (initially by
> default) to some amount of power at least
> 
> the functions should be thought still, but I want to show the idea.
> 
> This could be an example:
> 
> Content: Free, Libre, Livre ... (more tags)
> Context: Software, Codigo, Open Source, Linux
> 
> This way we are freeing up tags and still have them under control.
> Right now tags are freely editable at LL, but somehow not handy and
> adding, sorting and filtering (by language and amount) empowers them.
> Also about languages, for me is the same to have a tag in english or
> spanish, so I want to have both displayed. For the logi is different
> right now as we can not show more than one logi (for each spoken
> language), so we have to chose which to show. We could apply this to
> the tags too, by only showing tags for current language (of the logi)
> and also tags with no language and additional to this there could be a
> global language option to show a mixed of all understand languages by
> the user...

I understand what you say here, but this all is rather complex, and
especially hard to implement. And to be honest it seems to me to be
for 90% a solution to a problem we don't have (yet). Yes tags are
editable by all, and yes, some nasty stuff can be done with this
(like retagging a logi that has a better rating than yours) but so far
this has not happened, and if it happens there can be social checks
too to prevent it from happening...

I am sorry, but we have to keep in mind that we are limited in both
the work we can do and the complexity that current day servers can
handle at usable speeds...

> Other interesting part of this, is that I come to realize that we
> should make the action of tagging much more easy, and we should incite
> community tagging. Furthermore, the tags we assign should be shown
> always to us.

Here is a contradiction I think, with the idea of using tags for
locating logi's in the simulated dir-structure, and using tags in
large maximalist amounts... In my opinion LogiLogi should be
relatively minimalistic in nr of tags used. Also tagging should be
effortless, in that naming the location of the logi is doing the
tagging at the same time. Not much is needed after that.

In this context I also think that we should have the current tags as
default tags when creating outgoing links. They should then be
removable by dragging them to a trashcan, just like when adding tags.

> In resume, what I see is that we should get consensus in what tags to
> show by an algorithm as we do with logis. This could also be
> implemented through our current structure of Default, Extra-context
> and Extra-content tags, and defining by ranking which ones to show in
> each sub-group. Please Wybo, shade light on this :)

I've been thinking about changing the descriptions for the TreeNav
menu to "narrow context", and "choose content", or something like
that...

And maybe, just maybe we might have to hide the difference between
these tag-types from the users, and not allow extra content and
context tags anymore, and later just allow people to "copy" or "move" 
logis to different "locations" (then instantiating the tags either
as part of the main link or as extra tags).

That way we could get rid of the differences in colors too.

MISS = Make it simple & stupid

(maybe not the best acronym in English :), but you pplz get the point)

> = Ratings in other peer-groups
> Show other peergroups that rate this logi, ordered by ranking. For
> example, "Also rated by: Biologers 3.4, Politicians 2.5", to give
> another dimension of relations.

Cool idea, we currently have this in the form of 'view', 'ratings';
was for now removed from the main display for simplicity. What do
others think about it ? Miguel ?

> = What is logilogi for?
> We should write a logi about this, I might do it after discussing it
> over the list. Logilogi is a platform for rational debate of ideas and
> concepts. Now, this is more of a objective than a description of what
> it is for. First, we should differentiate between; what could LogiLogi
> be used for, and, what's the objective of logilogi.org, which are very
> different things. We know logilogi could be used for managing
> information for different purposes and that it's unique in it's
> features. On the other hand, logilogi.org aims to be an application of
> LogiLogi  for the rational debate of ideas and concepts as said
> before. This differentiation was critical when I intended to explain
> LogiLogi to non technical people.

As I see it LogiLogi is intended for philosophers, for working out new
ideas, and exploring new concenpts. The peergroup-system, the rating
but also the dir-structure with dynamic resolving are all aiming
towards this goal. Especially being able to write about different
aspects of concepts and/or ideas in sub-(sub, etc)-dirs is important
here, and it was also quoted as one of the wished for features by the
philosophers interviewed by the first Gip-team (in Dutch:
http://logilogi.wiki.sourceforge.net/philosopher_interview_1,
http://logilogi.wiki.sourceforge.net/philosopher_interview_2)

> = Bulk logis
> This is a strong term to use, but helps to explain. This does include
> the spam, but not only. For example, logis containing "asdfasdf",
> logis with wrong tags (on purpose), etc. This is related to the
> deletion of logis, and this problem is solved when other content is
> created and rated, but mean while this bulk logis are still there.

I think it's fine to delete them, especially as they are by anonymous
users everyone can do this...

> Also, there are other logis that are not bulk, but neither philosophy.
> For example, if somebody writes a poem, or a logi describing himself,
> or other cases. I would like to know what's your view about this.

I would say keep them in the system, I mean we don't need to be
minimalists in terms of content, as the peergroup-system can sort
things out.

A relevant problem here is whether to show tags for logis that are
rated low in the treenav. This is hard to program, but in the end we
will need something like this. Here we should be happy to have
separated the concerns (or at least not seeing tagging as voting, as
that would make things even more complex).

Luckily enougt it will still be quite some time untill it is so far,
as for quite some time there will be enough separation as long as 
logis are reasonably tagged (poetry, history, etc).

> What will we do about this at logilogi.org? we should remain unbiased
> and allow any type of contents (while not automatic or clear cases of
> spam?), but we could end up with lot's of bulk data, tags, peergroups,
> etc... Also we should take in count external linking for
> self-promotion (another of WP problems)...

Will be a problem indeed, but adding rel = nofollow should fix this
when the problem is there.

> = Deleting logis
> Since the contents of LL are under a free license, instead of the
> "delete" action we could "detach" it from the author and keep the
> contents. This is important in many aspects. A logi could mean work by
> many people (linking, questions, derived work, remarks, etc), so I
> think this is important as a warranty for contributions over a logi.

Would sound reasonable, but on the other hand many people were happy
about being able to retract logis. It might make them less affraid of
thinking creatively and bold.

But the detatching (making anonymous) sounds good too, this at least
is what currently happens when ans user deletes his account.

> On the other hand, there could be some system to auto-delete logis,
> maybe a logi marked for deletion (or voted -2) with no votes for X
> amount of time could be auto-deleted.

Would be hard with different peergroups being around, also I think
this owuld not be a good idea with an eye to separating concerns into
separate services later on.

> = Logilogi adoption
> After my talk, Rodolfo Pilas, a pioneer of free software in Uruguay
> talked to me and made some comments and great constructive suggestions
> about my presentation, which I greatly appreciate. He thought LL is
> great and he said "now it would be great if business adopt logilogi,
> they could submit bugs and contribute back code", and that was
> something I haven't thought much about still, although is the classic
> model of free software, but I haven't thought about LL applied to
> business so this is something we could also promote and maybe us start
> doing business or installing LL as a solution for business. This would
> obviously be a modified version of LL, but there is certainly a great
> potential. This is related to the next point, could LL replace forums?

I think this is an interesting idea, but again something that we
should only consider after having made the logilogi.org site a
moderate success at least :)

> = Replacing forums
> Right after my talk, the guy in charge of the computer room at the
> university told me he would be interested to install LL over there, as
> they where thinking of installing a forum, and now he thought LL was
> much powerful, and I think this is very interesting. I would like to
> help them on this, but I'm not sure that LL will fill the need of a
> forum, so we first have to look at the needs.

Sounds good & happy, but I think, to be honest, just like LogiLogi
will never replace all/most Wikis, it will never replace all/most
forums. It's just a different beast, something with it's own
advantages for lucid discussions, for exploring new concepts, and
things like that, while forums for chitchat, for announcing
activities, etc, is not going to happen, and many/most forums are in
use for that.

That's one of the reasons I think we should open up LogiLogi into
separate webservices (TODO MAKE logi)

> = Logilogi like a blog?
> Many people compared logilogi to a blog, and although we know the huge
> difference, it actually has some similarity, since a logi could be a
> post, and the comments show under it like comments on a blog. This
> would be only in the structure, but also in the way that the
> authorship is preserved, like blogs, different from wikis, so maybe
> it's not a so bad association. Maybe we could make the logi-blog? a
> super powerful, super easy blogging system for rails? then linked with
> the ogog api? wa! :)

Again an usefull side-project, and with the separated services this
should be a lot easier (imagine to be able to add links like the logi
links to texts that you can use on your blog, or on other sites,
etc...).

> = API
> This three letters are probably going to be mentioned very often in
> the upcoming months and it will be a detonator for LL adoption. Wybo,
> shall you start tracing your ideas about this? will there be
> peergroup, rating, reference (like inter-wiki links), and content
> interrelations?

See the logi TODO MAKE logi

> = Search engines optimization campaign
> I think it's time to get exposure, and this is our medium and we
> should use it at it's maximum potential. We should start SEO campaigns
> to attract attention, define keywords we want to apeart and promote
> them. We have lot's of mediums for this with no expenses, and this
> works takes some time so we could start it right now while we also get
> contents. Contents are also the base for SEO, and logilogi is by
> nature a winner on this by it's nature, so we should take advantage on
> this, right away.

Good idea, I just added a task for this. TODO add task

> = Announcements list
> When people shows interest in logilogi I/we always invite to
> participate at the list, but the general list is sometimes a bit
> technical, or maybe talk about things that don't matter to everybody
> and could be extense like this email :) We need a moderated list to
> invite general public to use, maybe this is the announcements list,
> and start reporting on new choices we've taken, functionalities (ej:
> we have a new front page!) etc. Maybe we could start selecting news
> for a weekly/monthly diggest.

There is an announcement-list already, and then there is the blog :)

The announcement-list, by the way, still has not received an e-mail as
- maybe not good - but I still think the high priority bugs/tasks
should be done before we can get the gemneral puplic to use,
understand and like LogiLogi...

> = Donations
> Let's add a paypal account, Wybo? we could also open a campaign at
> pledgie.com, where we specify what will be the founding spent at.

I just added a task for this. Still to be honest it will be some time
untill we get donations from the general public. But it's good it's
there in case a Shuttleworth comes by :)

> = UI
> We haven't got the time to talk much about the UI modifications I
> proposed (now Wybo told me he will answer early mails later), and I
> already have new ones to add, and I think we should keep evolving on
> this as it's one of our weakness.

Indeed, to be honest we already have a quite good UI, but it needs
some more love. On this subject see the logi: Evolving UI Improvements
TODO MAKE logi

I will comment on the UI-design below. (TODO check it's there)

> = Crossbrowsing
> We've done a lot of work, spent lot's of time working for LL to be
> compatible with IE. Miguel just told me he gave up after working 2
> days to make something work in IE, and this is a no end known problem.
> I think (and Miguel too) that we should focus on FF, and then, after
> releasing a stable new version, we could think of compatibilitiy with
> other browsers. How many people use LL with IE so far? is it worth?
> many people also has FF but use IE, so if there is a big alert they
> could switch browsers or just download FF, which will also promote
> it's use. We think this would unleash the front-end development
> dramatically.

It might, but to be honest, as I already said earlier, we at least
need to support IE7 too. And it should look good, as good as in
Firefox. Of course not everything has to work perfectly when it's very
hard to do, but at least it must look good & provide good basic
functionality.

> added note: just now I came across this:
> http://www.me.com/unsupported_browser/en/ (I can't enter the site as
> it doesn't recognize iceweasel as a firefox-like browser, and it would
> not work with IE either)

TODO check.

> = Learning Rails :)
> I'm back to learning rails, knowing a bit more now so starting not
> from scratch, and spending some of my time to learn so I can
> contribute to the LL code... Hope to be active on this soon, fixing
> bugs, getting tasks done, but without leaving the UI design :)

Cool, always good to develop yourself to become more versatile ;)

---previous-mail

> I might be able to do the video editing tomorrow to upload it...
> maybe it's too late.

Looking forward to it :)

> I've been thinking of giving a talk on the faculty of Engeniers and
> other at Humanities which would target developers and philosofers,
> and in collaboration we could make a team to work on LL.

Good idea, try to do it :)

> this type of things... imagine universities peer-groups that you
> could use at logilogi.org... the api will be nice!

Indeed :)

> > logo on it, but we should make some new ones with the new logo :)
>
> we should!!! actually this one has the "wiki + tagging + rating"...
> which was good, but now certainly out of date

I will also look for a big banner we can use at booths, and a new
t-shirt design. Just added a task for this. TODO

---previous-mail

> I taped my talk which could be of use as it's spanish, and when I
> get it on ogg I could upload it to logilogi.org or maybe
> foundation.LL.  Also, I'd like to write to the blog my experience
> too, if you think so :) where to link to the video.

Blog-article would be good for that. If you want I can put it on the
foundation-server.

> > Anyway; good luck tomorrow :) Got to grab some sleep for my
> > presentation now. Might be able to stay in Barcelona untill the
> > 20th.
> 
> It all went well at the presentation, people asked questions and
> participated. There were something like 18 people. I was very
> nervous but after starting got focused.

:) Quite a good number, and as said in the reply then, being nervous
is a good thing :)

> It's been great to present logilogi, I learned a lot. Also, your
> presentation/justification is exelent.

:) As a reply to why I did not introduce myself in the presentation:
first of all it is not about me, but about LogiLogi, and seconly I
don't have that many academic creds yet, so it would not impress them
anyway. No the self is something for corridor-sessions and the bar :)

> out problems. Maybe someone is also interested in coding for the
> university... anyway, I really loved how things moved, people was

Would be really cool, try to ask them anout this again in some time,
as someone from uni coding would be a good addition :)

---previous-mail by Miguel

> Unofrtunaly I couldn't make it to go to Barcelona, I really don't
> have the money at this moment to pay a ticket. I didn't write you
> before because I have a couple of friends that are going to go to
> Barcelona, till yesterday I hoped there were going to leave before
> the presentation but finally they are going this friday.

Sad. But things like this happen, and it will be some time untill they
don't happen anymore. I am also sorry for not being able to get to
Grenoble, as the ticket to Amsterdam was as expensive as the one to
Grenoble. Also I needed to be home to help my mother in the garden and
spend the week with my mom & sister too.

> PS: today I worked a lot on LL, I am trying to fix some javascript
> errors that appear on FF3 when loading the tinyMCE theme without
> toolbar on the wizards.

Curous about this bug. Is it both in the new & old versions ?

---previous-mail

> Yesterday I went to a "pizza-conf" of the ruby users group here in
> Uruguay to introduce to them LL. It was all great, very interesting
> and I got to introduce them a little bit of LL, but I need to get
> more into the code to be able to explain better technical stuff to
> developers. I'd also like to do the same to the Ruby group at Buenos
> Aires, I'll try to arrange that later.

Cool :)

Let me know when it's so far.

---previous-mail

> about creating logis, for example about "Reality", and show
> perspectives from different schools "idealism", "materialism", and
> others. Then add some peergroup "the idealists" and other "the
> materialists"... But I don't know what you all think about this. I

Philosophically speaking it could be quite hairy, as materialists and
idealist are not so easy to set apart as it would seem at first sight.
Also I don't think it's a very good idea to create peergroups like
that. On the contrary writing various logis about reality is very good
& interesting. The Reality of Reality. (TODO create a logi)

> just found that it takes still too long for people to understand
> what's LL about, and this is mostly becouse they go straight to the
> search box and don't find anything of what they type in. This will

The cloud hopefully has mended this problem. Something still to do is
make the cloud more varied. I will give it 

> certainly change with the new frontpage, I'm sure, but good content
> and examples is also very much needed. In my talk I'll also try to
> incite people to write.
> 
> I've been thinking that sub-headings of WP are kind of logis, as
> they
> are short and describe one concept, and the parent headings would be
> the context. Wybo, what do you think about adding Logis extracted
> from
> WP?

---previous-mail

> Sorry, but just in case, this is the proposal A SVG file:
> 
> http://logilogi.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/*checkout*/logilogi/trunk/public/images/UI_proposal_A.svg
> 
> :)

---previous-mail

> 've been working over the UI_proposal_A.svg. Here is some
> explanation/justification of my changes and other stuff:
> 
> = Overview
> Well, in general I tried to apply some ideas I've previously
> mention.  This is not finished yet as you will notice, and I'm
> sharing it so we can work it together if you all like. I'd really
> would like to work all together to end up with a better interface
> for Logilogi.
> 
> All of this is my personal view of a better logilogi, and all are
> proposals, just that, and some of them are radical and experimental
> that should be tested to prove they work in case we all agree to use
> them.
> 
> Also as this is not finished, there are obvious bits left, like the
> sidebars that where not changed much (apart from some styling). I've
> focused mostly on the headers, tried to define estyles that would
> work site-wide, "clean-up" the logi space, enfasize the peer-group
> perspective and your power (as one of the most important parts of
> LL), the rating and also the "new logi" action, as to promote people
> to rate.
> 
> Last but not least, this is a scratch and it's not perfect in the
> aspects of positions, margins, separations, sizes (although I've
> paid most attention to them), etc. Colors for example are proposed
> but not definitive as I need some testing still.
> 
> = Colors
> Well, I've done lot's of color schemes test. I end up with blue,
> like in many web apps we see arround and also many desktop software,
> and that's because blue works very good on screen. Also I've also
> been attracted to blue links (like default) and that makes blue a
> good companion.
> 
> = Fonts
> I've used font families and sizes but just as example to work over
> the layout and other concepts, but the definitive styles will take
> another approach, and I prefer working them right from the CSS,
> although they might end up looking similar to what they are now, but
> not the same.  For example, the logi text would work better on a
> browser, somehow inkscape ads a little bold.
> 
> = Header
> I've made many tests of color schemes, sizes, shapes, etc, and I've
> found that a heavy header helps the rest of the structure, so that's
> why the heavy-dark-blue header.
> 
> = Navigation bar - too many tags
> I always tend to be minimalistic, and since some time I've been
> thinking of a very minimalistic interfase for LL, which would
> consist of only one search box where everything would happen,
> suggestion, dynamic tag coloring (assigning content and context as
> typing), and also very ajaxyfied. So that would be some radical
> approach. In this case, we would be repeating tags only two times if
> we count the URL bar as our first input.
> 
> Now at LL we've got tags repeated 3 times only at the navigation
> bar.  I do understand why they are and I also think they are
> necessary now, but we should keep it in mind.
> 
> The other thing I see problematic about the tags is it's order for
> context and content, which is wrote 2 times each way, and I think
> it's confusing. We've discussed a lot about this [0]. I think we
> should go either way, but not mix them. I still fill query way more
> intuitive.
> 
> So, I did some changes.
> 
> I wrote "requested" (like old times) but still not sure what's the
> best, maybe it's searched for:, don't know.
> 
> I kind of merged the current "search" and "searched for" bar into
> one, and split the search in two, which I think will help users to
> understand what they are doing. It's an easy and effective way I
> believe, still have to test it.
> 
> = Main menu
> I think "activity" is a more descriptive name for what I imagine
> will have that section, since we will have logi-changes, last
> remarks, comments, etc... what do you think?
> 
> Also we could use a bit more wording for "tags", I don't know what,
> but we need to make clear that there you will find all logis...
> 
> = Logi toolbar
> I've give a try to this new approach. All logi-related actions to
> the bottom, and this was because when you finish reading a logi is
> when you want to use this tools, but also becouse they disturb most
> of the time since they are not used, but this is just a proposed
> idea.
> 
> = Icons
> I started to do some approaches to icons. I tested a linking-icon at
> the searched tags showing one-to-many, they are very communicative
> and explanatory, I'd like to use more of this. I actually used them
> on first approaches but then I didn't add them again, and now I just
> placed them to see what you all think, but I'm not sure if they are
> so explanatory.  I also made a simple "logi" icon... I could start
> building other icons, but first the general aesthetic should be
> defined, in case it changes from what is now.
> 
> = Links
> Right now you see links not underlined, but I pretend to test later
> how underline works as I think is the best approach. Inkscape don't
> has underline style for text so I didn't do it at first. In HTML is
> easier to test if it works or not.
> 
> = Buttons
> I've defined a standard button style, grey background and link in
> blue, which works for buttons and select boxes, but this is just a
> test, as select boxes should probably still be default styled for a
> while, later we could do a javascript+css dropdown, which are nice.
> Also, I've made an exception of button for the "create new logi" as
> to enfasize it, and play with the association of blue with the logi.
> 
> = Overbox
> I've been thinking for a while about a logi-centered design, for
> which I mean that most things happen within the logi (marking,
> commenting, editing). Also now while using it, I realized the
> overbox for editing anything is very annoying and obstructive. My
> proposal is to not use any more over boxes for any kind of edition,
> and use them (or popovers like logilinks) just for showing any
> static information. Also popups are very confusing for most people I
> think.
> 
> By now, we could some-how fix the overbox problems by changing the
> transparent background by a solid white background (which I also think
> is nicer), and I would also suggest not closing it when clicking
> outside the box, and just do it when clicking the close cross or
> cancel, submit, etc.
> 
> = Logi centered design
> I've been thinking of ways to start doing a logi centered design and
> interaction, which means that we could select text from the logi and
> comment right there without leaving (or poping) to another page/logi,
> and modifying settings right there, maybe with a shrinking box that
> appears, all without loosing focus on the logi. For this Wybo already
> explained the difficulties, so I've been thinking how to solve them.
> 
> I've been thinking that we could print the logi without links and
> remarks and add them dynamically through javascript, and only when
> needed. This way we could have always a plain text (or just basic
> tags) so we might have more control over the logi... You might already
> though about this and maybe it's just too difficult to do, but I see
> it would be a start for the next interactive LL :)
> 
> = Next steps
> Next I'll be working on the sidebars, their content and style. Right
> now, for example, My Settings has duplicated options for peergroup as
> they are on the header now too.

'k

> = Old list mails
> While researching about the previous tagging discussion, I found the
> first mails I wrote to the list, and I realized that right now we are
> doing what we where talking two years ago we would do, and just before
> reading this I made my first logi about the first "thoughts" I talked
> Wybo about, in our first conversation on the list... things are going
> just fine :)
> 
> Well, I think that was enough, looking forward the critics.
> 
> Greetings!
> 
> [0] http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=20070704201750.GA30673%40logilogi.org&forum_name=logilogi-list

---previous-mail

> Wybo,
> 
> This logi you've just extended is certainly the best I've read
> explaining the need for freedom on the web. Also, I'd appreciate
> further reading if you have.

There is not so much further reading. I added one to the links, 
autonomo.us, a recently started blog on this.

> = Libre Community Network
> My logi about "Red comunitaria libre" (which is just a tiny rough
> paragraph) has a lot to do with your writings, or I rather say that
> what you just wrote could be the base or starting philosophy point of
> the concept/idea/project I'm trying to develop. I've been thinking
> about this ideas for some time now, and I've always thought that the
> first step to take toward the concretion was to create a place where
> to debate on how to build itself up, and we could say that step has
> been taken, so next, I'll write down my proposal.

Indeed. Your logi on the Libre Communnity Network is good, I will
comment on it when I've more time again :)

> = Rating over changes
> When I read the first stub of /Free_Software/Web, I thought it was ok
> but not complete and I just rate it 3/5. Now, after the additions I
> think it is a solid 5/5. I already asked Wybo about how this was
> managed, and ratings are reset every week I think, so this is good,
> but we could do it some other way, for example it occurs me that when
> a logi is modified we could set to "modifiable" the rating (so we are
> able to rate it again one time). Other way would be to just liberate
> the rating to always be modifiable, but I guess you already have some
> good reason for not doing this.

We might do something like removing the remaining power of the earlier
vote and then add the new one. Think this is possible, you can add a
low priority task for it.

I have also been thinking about simplifying the voting in some other
ways, more on that later.

> = It's LL time
> We've come to know about other projects that are on the same or
> similar paths as LL during the last time, and I certainly see this is
> very encouraging as it gives us the notion of great moment for the
> philosophy debate online type of projects to arise. This is both
> driven by the needs and the circumstances, and I see all are
> converging now... You Wybo are certainly on the eye of the storm right
> now and one can feel it although far away :)

:)

> = Writing from peergroup?
> Does it matter what peer-group we are in to post a logi?

Currently not, I've been thinking about adding an auto-vote by the
author when posting from a peergroup.

---previous-mail

> this purpose it would be nice to have some kind of document structure
> (logis relations as talked before) so you can split up a paper in
> logis (Index, introduction... conclusion) and have them group
> together... This could be also achieved by tags, but I don't think
> tags are meant for this type of reference...

Might be nice, but the whole idea of LogiLogi is to split things up
semantically. I mean what is a summary other than a first logi, an
introduction than a summary of earlier work (link to it by subject
instead), chapter one other than a chapter about something, etc...

So I think it even might be better not to have this functionality than
to have it, and at least it is no high priority. When people want it
they can do it with tags...

> = Best practices
> I've been reading last logis submited, and this is what really get
> things going! We can already see some problems to solve for example on
> over-length logis like "Functionalism" by Kalle, that he opted to
> split it up, and I think he was forced to do something that is not
> good... I think we should deal with this problem by trying to model
> good writing practices. We could suggest good practices when the
> maximum word count is overpassed, for example in this "Functionalism"
> logi, it could have been splited by three "entities for which social
> phenomena can be functional" logis... I see a logi truncated looses
> the concept of LogiLogi... what do you think?

It is true, splitting texts over logis the way Kalle did is not the
way to go but in this case he did it because he used these bits in a
paper too, and he quickly pasted them in.

> = Multiple authors
> Wouldn't it be nice to be able to add authors to logis? many papers
> are written by more than one person... This would be part of the logi
> meta data, which could have lot's more of information, like
> contributors, references, bibliography, etc... what do you all think
> about this? what you had in mind for this wybo?

My original design included keeping track of the number of chars added
by multiple authors and then dividing the power over them but it is
overly complex, and cut by the 20/80 & KISS-rules. That is in reallife
it will work out with single authors especially as logis are 1) short,
and 2) not editable by others than the author by default.

> Also by the way, I've just read an interesting paper [0] from Larry
> Sanger, in which he asks himself "Should science communication be
> collaborative?" While reading it I found some of the problems (if not
> all) he mentions are actually solved by Logilogi, which is very
> encouraging, and we should contact him (again) to let him know
> Logilogi could be the answer (in case this mail mentioning his name
> don't call him). Also Logilogi is more oriented to humanity related
> discussions, but in the future the same model could work for other
> areas.

I was championing for this in the beginning, with him, but he didn't
listen. To be honest I think Citizendium is now already too far into a
different road to still change its policies on this. I think it's best
to first get logilogi working well and splitting it up into separate
services & making it grow & then they might be convinced & use it.

> = Text editor
> Why isn't bold style accepted? too disturbing? Note that shorcuts
> still work for bold "ctrl+b".

Just added a task for it TODO

> = Overbox
> I don't know what you'all think about this, but now that I've started
> editing at LL, I realized that it's very uncofortable the
> Overbox-way... Mostly because my browser is slowed down and for
> example if by mistake I click outside the box it looses the data...
> Also when it gives me a "too long error" the data is also lost :(

Too long error ? But logi editing is not done in the overbox. And with
the normal editing changes are not lost.

About the slowness, I just added a task for it, removing the
transparency makes it faster. And for the overboxes in general; I
think it makes things a lot simpler, because there's only one thing at
the screen at the same time. We'll have to usabillity test it with
some new pplz, but I think it is a good thing.

> = IRC Bot
> Wouldn't it be nice to have a logilogi bot? maybe to notify at the
> channel of new logis? certainly bots are very interesting :)

Would again be cool, but not first priority, as we're for now the only
peeps lurking in the channel. Stuff that makes a difference for the
users first :)

> = Recent changes RSS
> wouldn't it be nice and easy? :)

Yup, on the list.

> = Bugs
> Special characters in tags does not work right, it throughs 500 error.

Did you submit a bug for it already, as it is a bug.

> When creating a new peergroup, after entering the name if return
> pressed it seems to cancel instead of submit.

The button selection order can also be added as a task.

> You might already seen it, remarks popovers stretch too the conent
> instead of having a fixed with.

Bug.

> When logged in at en.logilogi I'm not to other languages.

Already filed.

> When canceling a remark addition or link addition, the remarks box
> (not the one in the overbox) is resized, and also, if I go back to the
> overbox for adding the link or remark it will not work right and not
> show the logi text.

Already filed.

---previous-mail

> > @miguel: about the problems with building the presentation. Did you do
> > it via:
> >
> > rake doc:tex:make[presentations/ECAP08/beamer.tex]
> >
> > As this is required, because of the small filter I added to it, to
> > have DRY-er syntax... Only after this filter the presentation is
> > turned into latex and processed with tex2pdf. See the Readme for
> > some more info...
> 
> Oh, I didn't know you could build it with rake! :P I installed texlive
> and had to learn it... good to know it too, and good you're writing
> your presentations this way, it's very nice.

Because I needed it for a different presentation too, I just extracted
it as a separate ruby-script (b-rex). I will put it online soon. TODO add task.

> > You mean that it only shows the title of a remark and then allows one
> > to open it further ? Is possible I think but might not be needed yet.
> > Also as remarks are very short (& have no titles), so showing only a
> > limited number of remarks and then a link to them all might be a good
> > fix also when the number of remarks increases (but currently no
> > problem).
> 
> What is the sorting criterial? so far is by posted date... what's
> next? rating remarks? yes/no voting?

I would say for now; nothing. Maybe expiring them after some time.

KISS.

> > Again here I think we should stay simple for quite some time to come.
> > Different color-intensities for number of remarks might be a good idea
> > on the mid time range...
> >
> > So I agree with miguel on the KISSing ;)
>
> good, it's reasonable.

Ok we agree then.

> >> way we deal with overlapping remarks/links and we could deal with
> >> multiple overlapping marks by making them more dark as more overlap
> >> (most like the GPLv3 commenting system). This style could also be only
> >> applied when the mark is mouse-over and just show a plain colour the
> >> rest of the time.
> >
> > This seems like a good idea :)
>
> :) I actually come up with this second solution after I imagined
> something like 15 colours over a logi, which was loosing KISS, and
> this other approach I imagine it very clear. I'm also willing to try
> having color for logis, like a border to the logi box, and then use
> the same color for logi-links, and then remarks would have another
> color and their marks too.

We might. It would at least differentiate clearly between html-links &
logi-links. But there would be a problem with overlaps between
remarks, comments and/or other types.

> > It's the transparencty. Same thing also on my slow EEE-pc. But is ok
> > on most fast machines...
>
> Oooook, video card maybe... we should consider other ways too... I'm
> actually very tempted to change transparency by white 100%... I think
> it would even look better.

I just did. TODO

> >> This brings another topic, that is something we've already discussed
> >> also, and it is to make the same viewing logi more interactive. For
> >> example, to add a remark, we could just highlight the text in the
> >> reading-logi and when mouse is released a popover shown with a text
> >> field and a submit button... I'm sure Miguel is willing to do all this
> >> type of shinny stuff :)
> >
> > 2 reasons not to do this:
> > - to keep the UI linear, easy to use for new users
> > - Miguela/we tried this already, but it's a can of worms because in
> >  the normal Logi view links, and what not (like other remarks) are
> >  already in there so the text-positions are wrong... Now there should
> >  be hacks possible to fix this, but it would be fragile and hard to
> >  maintain as we add new ranged stuff.
> > & users only have to deal with one thing/problem at a time.
> 
> Certainly, I understand.
> 
> >> some kind of interactive pannel, that could show contextual
> >> information about the current mouse position or action... like
> >> interactive tips... (all this was a little futuristic, maybe a couple
> >> of month ahead? :P )
> >
> > This bit sounds not bad, if the info shown in there makes sense...
> 
> Well, some things I could imagine we could show are for example, the
> information icon's text, instead of making popovers for them, we could
> who the info on the interactive panel... this panel should be position
> fixed so it's always at the same possition... It's actually a vague
> idea still, and it could also be dangerous if we use it for
> some-things and not for others, bringing confusion... I think
> something like this would work if we use it for all situations we want
> to show extra information... I'll think further about it.

I think this idea is really good, as it could also work as a spot to
show flash-messages.

Maximum sizes might be a problem.

> Here goes another idea, but it's mostly one for fun... Same as we have
> system-reserved tags, we could add one that is "motto" or "title", and
> that would be the title of LogiLogi :) it would be very nice if
> anybody could give it a try, and that the title shown would be choosen
> just like logis, by ranking, and also by peergroup!!! :)

Might be an idea, but for the a bit longer term, but not really
central to how LL operates.

---previous-mail

> > I think all the suggestions made by Bruno are excellent but I would
> > add a "simple mode" and an "advanced mode" so the UI could continue to
> > be simple as it is now. I like the KISS principle :p
>
> Certainly we should KISS. We could have 2 or 3 levels of complexity. I
> imagine the simplest mode should be almost plain text and not much
> functionality, more like a "reading" mode... maybe could be the
> default.

We may also be KISS in these complexity levels. I'd go for at max 2
levels, and just regarding the amount of details shown and showing
help-icons.

> > > For our next UI big changes, I'm willing to propose a more
> > > logi-centered interaction (also considering going back to placing the
> > > logi in the center, just making some tests on this), where things
> > > surround the logi and appear/order as needed... we are sure headed
> >
> > the best way would be that every user could have the ability to sort
> > the panels and the Logi position as they wish.
>
> mm... that could be nice, although I'm not sure if it wont confuse...
> What I meant by things that "appear/order as needed" I was thinking
> about, for example, when editing a logi, the not used sidebars could
> vanish, go to alpha 20% or something like that, and bring some other
> "editing" box could appear.... anyway, I'll try to work/think it out.

As said earlier, I think the toolbars (most at least) also provide
context so while they could go alpha after some time they should be
there in the beginning.

> also, today I browsed LL over a small screen (800x600 I think) and
> having the logi placed to the left was very confortable and it look
> good, and I thought that if we had the logi at the center (with left
> and right column) I would had to scroll to read the logi, so, I guess
> each approach has it's advantages...

'k

> > Today I started writing my rapport for my stage, next Wednesday I will
> > have my presentation so I will not be developing as much as the last
> > weeks for the next days

@Miguel, I'm, interested in reading it too :)

> > Greetings
> >
> > Miguel

---previous-mail

> = Remarks =
> The "remarks" are a very useful feature, and are clearly showing to be
> a great way of quick-participting. We are still in a "just the
> essential" version of Logilogi, and remarks were a last moment
> addition (at least to the UI), and this is just showing the tip of the
> iceberg. Logilogi is headed the right way from the beginning :)

:)

> == On/off ==
> Allow to turn them on/off. I'm not sure where to place this right now,
> but I think on the LogiRemarks would be right.
> This could be taken like part of the "user interfase" settings, that
> we've talked before of setting different levels of complexity.

Not KISS.

> == Markup ==
> We've talked about this before, and we should really get organized and
> think and discuss on what markup to use site-wide for it to be
> consistent, on all aspects of UI, or we could end up with something
> confusing. Instead of just talking about it, I should get down to work
> and start doing it... I'm writing a wiki page [0] detailing what is
> currently at the public Beta. De-glossing the structure this way let's
> me appreciate the elements very clearly. Also, while justifying and
> explaining each element, we are also writing documentation and we
> could re-use it.

We can, but also cleaning up CSS and such is a start. Like I did with
the panels last week.

> Also publishing features early (beta) lets us see how it evolves by
> the needs. For example, I'm appreciating how nice the link-popovers
> are to show conversations, and actually work very nicely, so remarks
> could be shown there (as right now) and use collapsible remarks
> titles... I don't know how this could be done, what do you all think?

I think it's good. The collapsable titles is better, but even without 
it's already good too :)

> == Coloring and styles ==
> === Colorful option ===
> If we create now the Remarks types (question, addition, etc), then we
> could use colors for each "type" of remark. It could be interesting to
> actually be able to set marks colors in different layers, for example
> mark text by amount of times remarked, by creation date, by user, etc.
> We could differentiate a site-wide a special color for logis, included
> derived works.

Sorry, again way too complex. Color intensity for nr of remarks is, for 
the short time, I think how far it should go.

> I've been thinking about light background colors mixed with underlined
> style, but I'm still not convinced about how to do this. The main
> problem is overlapping remarks, and them mixed with links. I thought
> we could deal with this with transparent color background and so there
> should be a mixing, but I'm not sure this will work.

If we do logi-links as non-underlined blue words, html-links as
underlined blue words, and remarks as words with a reddish background,
then we cleanly separate the dimensions, and have simplicity.

> === Not-so-colorful option ===
> We could also opt for a not so colorful way, like assigning colors by
> content-type, (logi, remark, external link?). If we use this method,
> we could show clearly different the remarks and links, for example,
> links underlined and marks "highlighted" soft background color. This
> way we deal with overlapping remarks/links and we could deal with
> multiple overlapping marks by making them more dark as more overlap
> (most like the GPLv3 commenting system). This style could also be only

We agree, except for the underlined part :-) 

> = Comments or Derived work? =
> I guess we are still looking for the right way to call it, certainly
> "derived work" describes it very good... I also thought "derived
> logis" could help to explain that comments/derived-works are also
> logis.

Good :)

> I've just written most of what I've been thinking about during the
> past days. I'm also very tempted to start writing this kind of stuff
> right to LL and so we can collaborate over there, what do you'all
> think?

I think it's ok to move some things over to LL, but let pplz know on
the list too, especially as long as we don't have the RSS-feeds yet.

(The plan is also to have RSS-feeds for context-tags, so pplz can keep
track of what happens in the 'dirs')

> [0] http://logilogi.wiki.sourceforge.net/UI+analysis - The lists font
> sizes are decreased each list-level so it's not very clear... take a
> look at it at the GUI editor mode... I also thought about starting to
> use LL as the development wiki, through a LL-dev-peergroup... what do
> you all think about this?

TODO

---previous-mail

> Also, I wanted to remark about the current fixes and issues. We've
> alread gone throught the most nasty problemas of crossbrowser, mostly
> rounded corners that you solved greatly, so now, to go through a new
> interfase would not be so much work, and we will take in count from
> the beginning the current needs (new features, frontpage, etc), and
> others... This is also why I'm using the same elements and moving the
> arround, not becouse it's easier, but in order not to change so many
> things. In my current examples though, it could seem different because
> I removed the background boxes (and colours), but that was just
> testing...

I think it's good to change the UI in small steps.

(About the background-boxes grouping things, this, I think reduces
complexity, in the sense that it groups things, so it breaks it up to
at max seven elements on the screen.)

> > While the colors look faded on one, there is surely enough space to
> > see the Logi & panels on both of them (On my EEE-pc with 1024x600 on
> > the other hand all one sees are the top-bars & the title)
> 
> I don't understand this point. What I intended to do was actually to
> design LL to even fit mobile phones (if it was html :). The sidebars
> would float left and go to the bottom of the logi if there werer no
> room...

I'm sorry, but this all takes time, and LogiLogi is not really
something that needs to be used on mobile phones; by the way, soon
enough phones will be running Firefox/IE and have 1024x768 screens.

Again KISS.

> Ok, I have to explain here a little bit. This layout was thought to
> have more ajax functionalityes, and the search and tagging is one of
> them. I whought of tags suggestions while typing and to add one tag at
> a time, while you could add multiple, the search box is small :)

Sounds nice, but auto-completion is also possible with multiple
consecutive tags, and this way the site/js is not in the way, I mean
having to do enter between tags, or stuff like that makes it slower...

> > - the panels are too close together & I think better when panels
> 
> Certainly, it needs air... I'm not sure why I get obsesed with space
> and shrink it all together...

Indeed, in that sense the current UI was/is better.

> > - the little calendar and the by - author name look good, and are
> >  missing here... (author name is there, but in a panel)
>
> Yes, I also agree with you that they look good how they are now, but I
> thought it would be more clear and usefull if it was all logi-related
> information on the same place, but this is relative and we could try
> to fit the most relevant information of the logi, on the logi
> itself... Also about the calendar, I do like it, mostly when it's
> applied to blog posts, but I don't think it's being of use in this
> application, but this is probabbly becouse my perception of the
> elements is disturbed by the use I do of LL, proabbly someone else
> uses it and realizes that the date is over there and that is the date
> when it was created/modified... I would go for a plain boring "last
> modified: 11th June 2008"

Might be true, yes, as dates are less important with philosophy than
blog-posts. So we might move it, or remove it. Still pplz seem to like
icons/visualisations more than textual stuff, so we should see where
else we can use icons.

---previous-mail

> == history & diff ==
> About the history/diff code, Miguel proposed an in-line aproach to
> version comparison, plus it's dynamic display (like good web2.0 LL is
> :), which I think both are very interesting... I first thought going
> inline for comparison would be a mess and hard to deal with, mostly as
> I don't have many examples of inline diff comparison, but after
> researching a bit, I found that even it's not a common approach, it
> could fit our needs, since we dont want a so technical tool, but more
> a more graphical one...

I'm really happy with the diff-UI :)

> === Tags ===
> We should decide whether we will compare the code (including tags) or
> the text (output). This I would guess was already decided for the
> current alpha version of the diff, and for what I can tell, the choice
> was to compare the output text, which I think is the best approach for
> our needs, so this way we will get the user away from the code in all
> cases, when editing, diffing, adding links, etc.  Right now it's not
> working as spected, but I guess this is because of the alpha state of
> the code. For example, changing "Original title" by "New title" right
> now in the diff looks like this:
> 
> <span class="diff_new"><h1>New<span
> class="diff_old"></span></h1><h1>Original<span class="diff_both">
> title</span></h1>

Indeed, this seems like a small bug (but not a high priority one, as
it currently looks good in both IE and FF).

> and a diff of changing "original" by "modified" in the paragraph looks
> like this:
> 
> We should define which tags we are working with, not many by the way,
> h1, h2, p, ol, ul, li, em, strong, sup, sub. With this tags, we could
> define the following way of diffing. We could diff the plain text
> inside structural tags, like headings, paragraphs and lists (items),
> and we should deal inside this tags with the text styling tags, like
> em, strong, sup, sub. This is the best approach I can imagine, and
> maybe, this is already where we are heading to, I didn't talk with
> Miguel about this. This way, the previous examples would look like
> this:

Doing sub-diffs has the problem of not seeing overall changes. And
taking out the styling before diffing misses styling changes.

These simple stylings I see as part of the text, which should be
normally diffed with the rest of it. Non-closed tags, etc, can be
fixed, in most cases, with running it through HTMLtidy.

But indeed, the bugs here can be fixed in a future diff version, but
as the diff works fine enough now, I see it as a very low priority 
task to improve it.

It still can be added to the tracker though.

> <h1><span class="diff_new">New</span><span
> class="diff_old">Original<span class="diff_both"> title</span></h1>
> <p><span class="diff_both">This is the </span><span
> class="diff_old">original</span><span class="diff_new">new</span><span
> class="diff_both"> paragraph text</span></p>
> 
> Also I don't know for which cases is the diff_both tag used for.
> 
> === Version selection ===
> For the version selection, I would certainly go the wikipedia style,
> which is very intuitive and functional, and it dont have to deal with
> 3 versions comparison... will we deal with this? do we need it?

This is well done by Miguel now :)

Wybo

Just got back from the mini-holiday :) It was great :) And now such 
good news at coming back!

> Yes! it's confirmed now and I'm very happy about this. It's both a
> great opportunity for spreading Logilogi to the free software
> community here in South America. Here [0] is the schedule.

Good news!

> I'm giving this presentation with Fefu [1][2] who is both my boss and
> friend, and he is very interested in logilogi. He has experience with
> presentations and we'll sure give a better one together than we could
> give each other alone :)

Cool :) If he wants he can join the list too.

> I'm also willing to start writing at LogiLogi about all aspects and
> previously riced questions so to be prepared for debating them after
> and during the talks, we should take the initiative.

Indeed, and from the holiday I also got ideas for more logis. An
interesting theme to get things going might be: the meaning of 
life :)

Anyway, I am almost done with the big mail, but there's still quite
some TODO's in my draft, so I think I will work on it more while in
England. First I will have to prepare the presentation I will give
there on some computational linguistic topic, and then I will finish
the mail :)

Wybo

> So far, good news, write all later.
> 
> [0] http://jornadas.cafelug.org.ar/8/programa/modules/myconference/program.php
> [1] http://en.logilogi.org/Home/Federico_Ponce_De_Leon
> [2] http://fefu.com.ar/
> 
> -- 
> Bruno

Yes! it's confirmed now and I'm very happy about this. It's both a
great opportunity for spreading Logilogi to the free software
community here in South America. Here [0]
 is the schedule.

I'm giving this presentation with Fefu [1][2] who is both my boss and
friend, and he is very interested in logilogi. He has experience with
presentations and we'll sure give a better one together than we could
give each other alone :)

I'm also willing to start writing at LogiLogi about all aspects and
previously riced questions so to be prepared for debating them after
and during the talks, we should take the initiative.

So far, good news, write all later.

[0] http://jornadas.cafelug.org.ar/8/programa/modules/myconference/program.php
[1] http://en.logilogi.org/Home/Federico_Ponce_De_Leon
[2] http://fefu.com.ar/

-- 
Bruno

> > The big question is not whether IE is more used, but which browsers
> > are most used by our audience. If we're targeting academics in the
> > humanities, perhaps we should find out what they're really using to
> > browse the web.

We're targeting students too...

> Certainly, although I'd guess it will be hard to tell who is using LL
> beside us, so I'd say 90% might be firefox for sure :)

No, there's more, mostly passive visitors left over from & visiting the 
old version (looking for notes & summaries), and we do have stats, see 
here:
http://en.logilogi.org/pub/webstat/awstats.logilogi.org.browserdetail.html

> It would also be nice to have public statics, reflecting our
> philosophy of openness too?

Good idea, just added a link.

Will be back for one evening in a week, with replies to Bruno's mails,
then for an other week at a conference, and then home again :)

Wybo

> -- 
> Bruno

On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Stephanie Bryant <mor...@gm...> wrote:
>
> The big question is not whether IE is more used, but which browsers
> are most used by our audience. If we're targeting academics in the
> humanities, perhaps we should find out what they're really using to
> browse the web.
>

Certainly, although I'd guess it will be hard to tell who is using LL
beside us, so I'd say 90% might be firefox for sure :)

It would also be nice to have public statics, reflecting our
philosophy of openness too?

-- 
Bruno

I know IE is still the default web browser, but I'm definitely seeing
a big uptick in Firefox use in the last 6-12 months in my own server
stats-- this may be a self-selecting audience, but I'm definitely
seeing more Firefox use among wiki/blog users. I think Microsoft's IE
strategy is starting to backfire.

The big question is not whether IE is more used, but which browsers
are most used by our audience. If we're targeting academics in the
humanities, perhaps we should find out what they're really using to
browse the web.

--Stephanie

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> Lol, I will write a reply to all remaining mails I still had to reply
> to this week, but about the crossbrowser-point; I'm not too happy
> about it, as pragmatically speaking, if we were to support only one
> browser, then it should be IE7, as - horrible but true - still most
> people use it...:

-- 
Stephanie Bryant
mor...@gm...
Life on the Road blog: http://ustravel.today.com

> Great mail Bruno,
> 
> I will reply later with details to your points but I wanted to support
> the anti-Crossbrowsing point :) before all.

Lol, I will write a reply to all remaining mails I still had to reply
to this week, but about the crossbrowser-point; I'm not too happy
about it, as pragmatically speaking, if we were to support only one
browser, then it should be IE7, as - horrible but true - still most
people use it...:

http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2008/July/browser.php

Which of course is something I am not for at all, but dropping it is
like dropping most users...

When Bruno's mail came in I was even thinking about doing more about
IE7-support, as LL still did not look as good in IE7 as in FF (fixed
some of those problems this week).

So something to discuss here... :)

Wybo

> Later,
> 
> Miguel

Great mail Bruno,

I will reply later with details to your points but I wanted to support
the anti-Crossbrowsing point :) before all.

Later,

Miguel




On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Bruno <bs...@gm...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> In this mail I resume latest thoughts, most of them triggered after my
> talk at Montevideo, which was a great experience. So here is a variaty
> of ideas/thoughts:
>
> = Stallman
> It's great you got to talk to Stallman, although it was to know he has
> different view. Does he thinks LL's view and activism not good?
>
> I also would like to know what he said about LL itself, as a project,
> did he liked it?
>
> = Roadmap
> I believe we should all together trace the next-steps and road map in
> detail. For example, I strongly believe we have to make a stop, and
> rethink some aspects of LL and work over them before continuing to
> further development of the API, which would be the greatest expansion.
>
> = Democratization of development
> One of the future plans traced by Wybo was to include some democratic
> process in the development, which I think is great, and this also
> triggers lot's of other stuff that I've been thinking off for some
> time. Also this remembers me of leparlement, which is a fast way of
> searching democratic consensus :)
>
> == Developing over LL.org
> I've proposed this before, and some people had suggested the same
> thing after my talk, and I think now we are ready to start walking
> this way. We should get LL development to logilogi.org, and start
> using our own tool for LL's own development, in the end, we are always
> debating/exchanging ideas over the list/irc.
>
> = Tags
> This is a returning topic. We currently have two big issues with tags:
>
> == Query Vs. Dir structure
> This was brought back in my last large-mail about the new UI proposal
> [0] in the section "Navigation bar - too many tags". Basically, I
> tihnk we should opt for one way or the other but both the same, in the
> url and search bar and I believe the Query to be the most intuitive
> one.
>
> == Logi-lists
> I introduce this idea first in order to use for my next proposal for
> internationalization.
>
> Logi lists are just what we have right now at the laguage settings
> plus going further and mixing lists across users/peergroups. This way,
> the order would be a rating and thus we could apply an algorithm like
> the logis ranking does. This would be just one of the many ways there
> is for voting/ranking lists.
>
> == Internationalization of tags
> We should pay attention to this. Right now it is a bit confusing since
> tags have no language. We talk about this before. There is no easy
> solution and we should discuss how to solve this. I would guess Wybo
> already has this in mind, what is your view on this?
>
> Here are my thoughts:
>
> LL tags should be sorted and filtered, and should have some properties
> like language. I think for this we should apply some concepts we
> already use for logis mixed with list sorting as a way of voting. This
> would be:
>
>  * I can rearrange the tags by dragging them which is a vote (a set of tags)
>  * the peergroups and power/weight applies for the rankings
>  * tags are displayed in many languages at the same time, as far as
> they are in my lang list at settings. (language list should show the
> option to chose which langs and not only sorting)
>  * how many tags are displayed can be determined (initially by
> default) to some amount of power at least
>
> the functions should be thought still, but I want to show the idea.
>
> This could be an example:
>
> Content: Free, Libre, Livre ... (more tags)
> Context: Software, Codigo, Open Source, Linux
>
> This way we are freeing up tags and still have them under control.
> Right now tags are freely editable at LL, but somehow not handy and
> adding, sorting and filtering (by language and amount) empowers them.
> Also about languages, for me is the same to have a tag in english or
> spanish, so I want to have both displayed. For the logi is different
> right now as we can not show more than one logi (for each spoken
> language), so we have to chose which to show. We could apply this to
> the tags too, by only showing tags for current language (of the logi)
> and also tags with no language and additional to this there could be a
> global language option to show a mixed of all understand languages by
> the user...
>
> Other interesting part of this, is that I come to realize that we
> should make the action of tagging much more easy, and we should incite
> community tagging. Furthermore, the tags we assign should be shown
> always to us.
>
> I've actually be thinking how to solve this for the last days, but
> obviously with the ideas we've all talk about in the past :) Urgyen
> chat yesterday was also interesting, and I haven't yet studied some
> links he post to the irc, yet. This is a clear topic we could talk
> about at logilogi, mostly for future reference.
>
> In resume, what I see is that we should get consensus in what tags to
> show by an algorithm as we do with logis. This could also be
> implemented through our current structure of Default, Extra-context
> and Extra-content tags, and defining by ranking which ones to show in
> each sub-group. Please Wybo, shade light on this :)
>
> = Ratings in other peer-groups
> Show other peergroups that rate this logi, ordered by ranking. For
> example, "Also rated by: Biologers 3.4, Politicians 2.5", to give
> another dimension of relations.
>
> = What is logilogi for?
> We should write a logi about this, I might do it after discussing it
> over the list. Logilogi is a platform for rational debate of ideas and
> concepts. Now, this is more of a objective than a description of what
> it is for. First, we should differentiate between; what could LogiLogi
> be used for, and, what's the objective of logilogi.org, which are very
> different things. We know logilogi could be used for managing
> information for different purposes and that it's unique in it's
> features. On the other hand, logilogi.org aims to be an application of
> LogiLogi  for the rational debate of ideas and concepts as said
> before. This differentiation was critical when I intended to explain
> LogiLogi to non technical people.
>
> = Bulk logis
> This is a strong term to use, but helps to explain. This does include
> the spam, but not only. For example, logis containing "asdfasdf",
> logis with wrong tags (on purpose), etc. This is related to the
> deletion of logis, and this problem is solved when other content is
> created and rated, but mean while this bulk logis are still there.
>
> Also, there are other logis that are not bulk, but neither philosophy.
> For example, if somebody writes a poem, or a logi describing himself,
> or other cases. I would like to know what's your view about this.
>
> What will we do about this at logilogi.org? we should remain unbiased
> and allow any type of contents (while not automatic or clear cases of
> spam?), but we could end up with lot's of bulk data, tags, peergroups,
> etc... Also we should take in count external linking for
> self-promotion (another of WP problems)...
>
> = Deleting logis
> Since the contents of LL are under a free license, instead of the
> "delete" action we could "detach" it from the author and keep the
> contents. This is important in many aspects. A logi could mean work by
> many people (linking, questions, derived work, remarks, etc), so I
> think this is important as a warranty for contributions over a logi.
>
> On the other hand, there could be some system to auto-delete logis,
> maybe a logi marked for deletion (or voted -2) with no votes for X
> amount of time could be auto-deleted.
>
> = Logilogi adoption
> After my talk, Rodolfo Pilas, a pioneer of free software in Uruguay
> talked to me and made some comments and great constructive suggestions
> about my presentation, which I greatly appreciate. He thought LL is
> great and he said "now it would be great if business adopt logilogi,
> they could submit bugs and contribute back code", and that was
> something I haven't thought much about still, although is the classic
> model of free software, but I haven't thought about LL applied to
> business so this is something we could also promote and maybe us start
> doing business or installing LL as a solution for business. This would
> obviously be a modified version of LL, but there is certainly a great
> potential. This is related to the next point, could LL replace forums?
>
> = Replacing forums
> Right after my talk, the guy in charge of the computer room at the
> university told me he would be interested to install LL over there, as
> they where thinking of installing a forum, and now he thought LL was
> much powerful, and I think this is very interesting. I would like to
> help them on this, but I'm not sure that LL will fill the need of a
> forum, so we first have to look at the needs.
>
> = Logilogi like a blog?
> Many people compared logilogi to a blog, and although we know the huge
> difference, it actually has some similarity, since a logi could be a
> post, and the comments show under it like comments on a blog. This
> would be only in the structure, but also in the way that the
> authorship is preserved, like blogs, different from wikis, so maybe
> it's not a so bad association. Maybe we could make the logi-blog? a
> super powerful, super easy blogging system for rails? then linked with
> the ogog api? wa! :)
>
> = API
> This three letters are probably going to be mentioned very often in
> the upcoming months and it will be a detonator for LL adoption. Wybo,
> shall you start tracing your ideas about this? will there be
> peergroup, rating, reference (like inter-wiki links), and content
> interrelations?
>
> = Search engines optimization campaign
> I think it's time to get exposure, and this is our medium and we
> should use it at it's maximum potential. We should start SEO campaigns
> to attract attention, define keywords we want to apeart and promote
> them. We have lot's of mediums for this with no expenses, and this
> works takes some time so we could start it right now while we also get
> contents. Contents are also the base for SEO, and logilogi is by
> nature a winner on this by it's nature, so we should take advantage on
> this, right away.
>
> = Announcements list
> When people shows interest in logilogi I/we always invite to
> participate at the list, but the general list is sometimes a bit
> technical, or maybe talk about things that don't matter to everybody
> and could be extense like this email :) We need a moderated list to
> invite general public to use, maybe this is the announcements list,
> and start reporting on new choices we've taken, functionalities (ej:
> we have a new front page!) etc. Maybe we could start selecting news
> for a weekly/monthly diggest.
>
> = Donations
> Let's add a paypal account, Wybo? we could also open a campaign at
> pledgie.com, where we specify what will be the founding spent at.
>
> = UI
> We haven't got the time to talk much about the UI modifications I
> proposed (now Wybo told me he will answer early mails later), and I
> already have new ones to add, and I think we should keep evolving on
> this as it's one of our weakness.
>
> = Crossbrowsing
> We've done a lot of work, spent lot's of time working for LL to be
> compatible with IE. Miguel just told me he gave up after working 2
> days to make something work in IE, and this is a no end known problem.
> I think (and Miguel too) that we should focus on FF, and then, after
> releasing a stable new version, we could think of compatibilitiy with
> other browsers. How many people use LL with IE so far? is it worth?
> many people also has FF but use IE, so if there is a big alert they
> could switch browsers or just download FF, which will also promote
> it's use. We think this would unleash the front-end development
> dramatically.
>
> added note: just now I came across this:
> http://www.me.com/unsupported_browser/en/ (I can't enter the site as
> it doesn't recognize iceweasel as a firefox-like browser, and it would
> not work with IE either)
>
> = Learning Rails :)
> I'm back to learning rails, knowing a bit more now so starting not
> from scratch, and spending some of my time to learn so I can
> contribute to the LL code... Hope to be active on this soon, fixing
> bugs, getting tasks done, but without leaving the UI design :)
>
> ----
>
> Next, I'll write a draft of the presentation at Montevideo now at the
> LL foundation.
>
> I'll end the mail for now, and I think it would have been nice if all
> this mail had been written through logis :)
>
> Greetings all!
>
> [0] http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=a1be8f60807080230u288eb1ffr73fe553732aa35a3%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=logilogi-list
> --
> Bruno
>
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> _______________________________________________
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> Log...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list
>

Hi all,

In this mail I resume latest thoughts, most of them triggered after my
talk at Montevideo, which was a great experience. So here is a variaty
of ideas/thoughts:

= Stallman
It's great you got to talk to Stallman, although it was to know he has
different view. Does he thinks LL's view and activism not good?

I also would like to know what he said about LL itself, as a project,
did he liked it?

= Roadmap
I believe we should all together trace the next-steps and road map in
detail. For example, I strongly believe we have to make a stop, and
rethink some aspects of LL and work over them before continuing to
further development of the API, which would be the greatest expansion.

= Democratization of development
One of the future plans traced by Wybo was to include some democratic
process in the development, which I think is great, and this also
triggers lot's of other stuff that I've been thinking off for some
time. Also this remembers me of leparlement, which is a fast way of
searching democratic consensus :)

== Developing over LL.org
I've proposed this before, and some people had suggested the same
thing after my talk, and I think now we are ready to start walking
this way. We should get LL development to logilogi.org, and start
using our own tool for LL's own development, in the end, we are always
debating/exchanging ideas over the list/irc.

= Tags
This is a returning topic. We currently have two big issues with tags:

== Query Vs. Dir structure
This was brought back in my last large-mail about the new UI proposal
[0] in the section "Navigation bar - too many tags". Basically, I
tihnk we should opt for one way or the other but both the same, in the
url and search bar and I believe the Query to be the most intuitive
one.

== Logi-lists
I introduce this idea first in order to use for my next proposal for
internationalization.

Logi lists are just what we have right now at the laguage settings
plus going further and mixing lists across users/peergroups. This way,
the order would be a rating and thus we could apply an algorithm like
the logis ranking does. This would be just one of the many ways there
is for voting/ranking lists.

== Internationalization of tags
We should pay attention to this. Right now it is a bit confusing since
tags have no language. We talk about this before. There is no easy
solution and we should discuss how to solve this. I would guess Wybo
already has this in mind, what is your view on this?

Here are my thoughts:

LL tags should be sorted and filtered, and should have some properties
like language. I think for this we should apply some concepts we
already use for logis mixed with list sorting as a way of voting. This
would be:

 * I can rearrange the tags by dragging them which is a vote (a set of tags)
 * the peergroups and power/weight applies for the rankings
 * tags are displayed in many languages at the same time, as far as
they are in my lang list at settings. (language list should show the
option to chose which langs and not only sorting)
 * how many tags are displayed can be determined (initially by
default) to some amount of power at least

the functions should be thought still, but I want to show the idea.

This could be an example:

Content: Free, Libre, Livre ... (more tags)
Context: Software, Codigo, Open Source, Linux

This way we are freeing up tags and still have them under control.
Right now tags are freely editable at LL, but somehow not handy and
adding, sorting and filtering (by language and amount) empowers them.
Also about languages, for me is the same to have a tag in english or
spanish, so I want to have both displayed. For the logi is different
right now as we can not show more than one logi (for each spoken
language), so we have to chose which to show. We could apply this to
the tags too, by only showing tags for current language (of the logi)
and also tags with no language and additional to this there could be a
global language option to show a mixed of all understand languages by
the user...

Other interesting part of this, is that I come to realize that we
should make the action of tagging much more easy, and we should incite
community tagging. Furthermore, the tags we assign should be shown
always to us.

I've actually be thinking how to solve this for the last days, but
obviously with the ideas we've all talk about in the past :) Urgyen
chat yesterday was also interesting, and I haven't yet studied some
links he post to the irc, yet. This is a clear topic we could talk
about at logilogi, mostly for future reference.

In resume, what I see is that we should get consensus in what tags to
show by an algorithm as we do with logis. This could also be
implemented through our current structure of Default, Extra-context
and Extra-content tags, and defining by ranking which ones to show in
each sub-group. Please Wybo, shade light on this :)

= Ratings in other peer-groups
Show other peergroups that rate this logi, ordered by ranking. For
example, "Also rated by: Biologers 3.4, Politicians 2.5", to give
another dimension of relations.

= What is logilogi for?
We should write a logi about this, I might do it after discussing it
over the list. Logilogi is a platform for rational debate of ideas and
concepts. Now, this is more of a objective than a description of what
it is for. First, we should differentiate between; what could LogiLogi
be used for, and, what's the objective of logilogi.org, which are very
different things. We know logilogi could be used for managing
information for different purposes and that it's unique in it's
features. On the other hand, logilogi.org aims to be an application of
LogiLogi  for the rational debate of ideas and concepts as said
before. This differentiation was critical when I intended to explain
LogiLogi to non technical people.

= Bulk logis
This is a strong term to use, but helps to explain. This does include
the spam, but not only. For example, logis containing "asdfasdf",
logis with wrong tags (on purpose), etc. This is related to the
deletion of logis, and this problem is solved when other content is
created and rated, but mean while this bulk logis are still there.

Also, there are other logis that are not bulk, but neither philosophy.
For example, if somebody writes a poem, or a logi describing himself,
or other cases. I would like to know what's your view about this.

What will we do about this at logilogi.org? we should remain unbiased
and allow any type of contents (while not automatic or clear cases of
spam?), but we could end up with lot's of bulk data, tags, peergroups,
etc... Also we should take in count external linking for
self-promotion (another of WP problems)...

= Deleting logis
Since the contents of LL are under a free license, instead of the
"delete" action we could "detach" it from the author and keep the
contents. This is important in many aspects. A logi could mean work by
many people (linking, questions, derived work, remarks, etc), so I
think this is important as a warranty for contributions over a logi.

On the other hand, there could be some system to auto-delete logis,
maybe a logi marked for deletion (or voted -2) with no votes for X
amount of time could be auto-deleted.

= Logilogi adoption
After my talk, Rodolfo Pilas, a pioneer of free software in Uruguay
talked to me and made some comments and great constructive suggestions
about my presentation, which I greatly appreciate. He thought LL is
great and he said "now it would be great if business adopt logilogi,
they could submit bugs and contribute back code", and that was
something I haven't thought much about still, although is the classic
model of free software, but I haven't thought about LL applied to
business so this is something we could also promote and maybe us start
doing business or installing LL as a solution for business. This would
obviously be a modified version of LL, but there is certainly a great
potential. This is related to the next point, could LL replace forums?

= Replacing forums
Right after my talk, the guy in charge of the computer room at the
university told me he would be interested to install LL over there, as
they where thinking of installing a forum, and now he thought LL was
much powerful, and I think this is very interesting. I would like to
help them on this, but I'm not sure that LL will fill the need of a
forum, so we first have to look at the needs.

= Logilogi like a blog?
Many people compared logilogi to a blog, and although we know the huge
difference, it actually has some similarity, since a logi could be a
post, and the comments show under it like comments on a blog. This
would be only in the structure, but also in the way that the
authorship is preserved, like blogs, different from wikis, so maybe
it's not a so bad association. Maybe we could make the logi-blog? a
super powerful, super easy blogging system for rails? then linked with
the ogog api? wa! :)

= API
This three letters are probably going to be mentioned very often in
the upcoming months and it will be a detonator for LL adoption. Wybo,
shall you start tracing your ideas about this? will there be
peergroup, rating, reference (like inter-wiki links), and content
interrelations?

= Search engines optimization campaign
I think it's time to get exposure, and this is our medium and we
should use it at it's maximum potential. We should start SEO campaigns
to attract attention, define keywords we want to apeart and promote
them. We have lot's of mediums for this with no expenses, and this
works takes some time so we could start it right now while we also get
contents. Contents are also the base for SEO, and logilogi is by
nature a winner on this by it's nature, so we should take advantage on
this, right away.

= Announcements list
When people shows interest in logilogi I/we always invite to
participate at the list, but the general list is sometimes a bit
technical, or maybe talk about things that don't matter to everybody
and could be extense like this email :) We need a moderated list to
invite general public to use, maybe this is the announcements list,
and start reporting on new choices we've taken, functionalities (ej:
we have a new front page!) etc. Maybe we could start selecting news
for a weekly/monthly diggest.

= Donations
Let's add a paypal account, Wybo? we could also open a campaign at
pledgie.com, where we specify what will be the founding spent at.

= UI
We haven't got the time to talk much about the UI modifications I
proposed (now Wybo told me he will answer early mails later), and I
already have new ones to add, and I think we should keep evolving on
this as it's one of our weakness.

= Crossbrowsing
We've done a lot of work, spent lot's of time working for LL to be
compatible with IE. Miguel just told me he gave up after working 2
days to make something work in IE, and this is a no end known problem.
I think (and Miguel too) that we should focus on FF, and then, after
releasing a stable new version, we could think of compatibilitiy with
other browsers. How many people use LL with IE so far? is it worth?
many people also has FF but use IE, so if there is a big alert they
could switch browsers or just download FF, which will also promote
it's use. We think this would unleash the front-end development
dramatically.

added note: just now I came across this:
http://www.me.com/unsupported_browser/en/ (I can't enter the site as
it doesn't recognize iceweasel as a firefox-like browser, and it would
not work with IE either)

= Learning Rails :)
I'm back to learning rails, knowing a bit more now so starting not
from scratch, and spending some of my time to learn so I can
contribute to the LL code... Hope to be active on this soon, fixing
bugs, getting tasks done, but without leaving the UI design :)

----

Next, I'll write a draft of the presentation at Montevideo now at the
LL foundation.

I'll end the mail for now, and I think it would have been nice if all
this mail had been written through logis :)

Greetings all!

[0] http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=a1be8f60807080230u288eb1ffr73fe553732aa35a3%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=logilogi-list
-- 
Bruno

On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 5:08 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> Bruno I think I will try something pragmatic for the cloud. Having it
> inside a content-tag colored box, instead of each tag it's own div,
> that will - for now - solve our problem too...
>

Sounds good.

> I will take the code from the OgOg cloud.
>

Great, that cloud looks good.

-- 
Bruno

Bruno I think I will try something pragmatic for the cloud. Having it
inside a content-tag colored box, instead of each tag it's own div,
that will - for now - solve our problem too...

I will take the code from the OgOg cloud.

Wybo

I got back from Barcelona, spent about a day updating my todo-list
with all the leads pplz gave, and things to do :)

Here is the blog-post about the FKFT-conference and the conversation
with Stallman:

http://foundation.logilogi.org/2008/7/22/fkft-in-barcelona-and-web-freedom-again

And at the bottom of it I refer to a nice logi by Bruno...

Some time in the coming days I will try to finish the front-page and
fix the bugs in the remark-removal code (mainly display-errors, at
least in Firefox 2), so we might commit.

Still I will have to do some other tings too, like helping in the
garden at my mother's home, and preparing the presentation of the
conference in Leeds; a computational linguistics-conference where I
will present some research I did for my prof as a student-assistent
(luckily for this conference all expenses are covered by my uni).

I will be leaving again on saturday, to have 8 days of holidays in the
south of holland with some friends in an old farm-house. Then I will
go to the Leeds-conference.

So I'll do my best to get things commit-ready before then :)

Also I will try to apply for funding again some time soon, so if some
of you are in, let me know & we can discuss things over IRC :)

Wybo

> >> > 2 presentations on LogiLogi in Spanish speaking areas half a world
> >> > apart :)
> >>
> > Cool :) Looking forward to seeing it :)
>
> I might be able to do the video editing tomorrow to upload it... maybe
> it's too late.
> 
> How did your presentation went??

My presentation went well :) The room was a bit noisy though, because
of an airco that was as loud as construction-work ;)

Quite some pplz there. After it we had a dinner at which some
posibillities were discussed. I also got some good leads on possible
sources of funding, and maybe, just maybe there is cooperation
possible with a project of the conference organizers for which they
have got a European subsidy. Also someone of the BBC was interested in
maybe using or adapting LogiLogi (or funding us to do it) for an 
openlearning project of theirs.

Of course things like this are often quite vague, and there can be no
guarantees, but at least there is a posibillity.

Also something that comes from this conference, and others is that by
seeing the difference with other projects my bilieve in our approach
is growing; which in a few words I think is: Making something which
matters to users, something which is simple, and something which is
(going to be) opened up as separate services; and of course something
which is software libre and community-driven.

> I'm sending mine to Miguel so he uploads it to the svn as I can't from here.

Just got it, am now synchronizing it to my laptop :)

Wybo

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 4:35 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
>> > 2 presentations on LogiLogi in Spanish speaking areas half a world
>> > apart :)
>>
> Cool :) Looking forward to seeing it :)
>
I might be able to do the video editing tomorrow to upload it... maybe
it's too late.

How did your presentation went??

I'm sending mine to Miguel so he uploads it to the svn as I can't from here.

> And yup I just gave you an account on the foundation-blog. See the
> email with your user-name and password.
>

Thanks.


> Sounds really good. If they could bring in a programmer :) Also making
> local installations should be easy as soon as the separation into
> separate services is completed...
>
I've been thinking of giving a talk on the faculty of Engeniers and
other at Humanities which would target developers and philosofers, and
in collaboration we could make a team to work on LL.

At Faculty of Social Sciences they wanted to install a forum and after
the presentation they thought they could install LL, we'll be
discussing about this, and certainly the api will be a detonator for
this type of things... imagine universities peer-groups that you could
use at logilogi.org... the api will be nice!


> logo on it, but we should make some new ones with the new logo :)
>
we should!!! actually this one has the "wiki + tagging + rating"...
which was good, but now certainly out of date

>> I'll write another mail tomorrow about the talk.
>
> Ok. You can also do it on the blog.
>

I'll try to write tomorrow, but while here at uruguay I'm doing lot's
of things...

Greetings all!


-- 
Bruno

> > 2 presentations on LogiLogi in Spanish speaking areas half a world
> > apart :)
>
> I taped my talk which could be of use as it's spanish, and when I get
> it on ogg I could upload it to logilogi.org or maybe foundation.LL.
> Also, I'd like to write to the blog my experience too, if you think so
> :) where to link to the video.

Cool :) Looking forward to seeing it :)

And yup I just gave you an account on the foundation-blog. See the
email with your user-name and password.

> > there he was quite hostile, but later at the reception he was... at
> > least not hostile :) and even slightly nice.
>
> well, it's great you are able to talk to him, sad to know ther are
> this differences, which at the end, maybe are not bad at all as
> difference is good too.

Indeed, hacking at different fronts for Freedom I guess :)

> > Still we might need a separate foundation. For the coming months/year
> > for LogiLogi, and later on we might morph into practically a free
> > software foundation for the web... But we will be discussing this Free
> > Software philosophy thing on LogiLogi sometime soon :)
> 
> bet on that!

Am already preparing some logi's in my mind about it :)

> > Anyway; good luck tomorrow :) Got to grab some sleep for my
> > presentation now. Might be able to stay in Barcelona untill the 20th.
> 
> It all went well at the presentation, people asked questions and
> participated. There were something like 18 people. I was very nervous
> but after starting got focused.

Way to go :) I've heard from very experienced talkers that being
nervous is something that will stick around for ever, even after 100ds
of talks...

> It's been great to present logilogi, I learned a lot. Also, your
> presentation/justification is exelent.
> 
> Also, the people incharge of the web of the faculty considered to
> install logilogi tu use it instead of a forum, which I thought it
> would be a great idea (looking forward the api) and oportunity to work
> out problems. Maybe someone is also interested in coding for the
> university... anyway, I really loved how things moved, people was very

Sounds really good. If they could bring in a programmer :) Also making
local installations should be easy as soon as the separation into
separate services is completed...

> motivated... I was wearing the LL shirt, so maybe that has something
> todo... :)

May be :) I have not brought it with me here as it is still the old
logo on it, but we should make some new ones with the new logo :)

> I'll write another mail tomorrow about the talk.

Ok. You can also do it on the blog.

Wybo

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> 2 presentations on LogiLogi in Spanish speaking areas half a world
> apart :)
>
I taped my talk which could be of use as it's spanish, and when I get
it on ogg I could upload it to logilogi.org or maybe foundation.LL.
Also, I'd like to write to the blog my experience too, if you think so
:) where to link to the video.

> Had some conversations with Stallman again. Probably we will never
> agree but the conversations were good :) Not during the questions,
> there he was quite hostile, but later at the reception he was... at
> least not hostile :) and even slightly nice.
>
well, it's great you are able to talk to him, sad to know ther are
this differences, which at the end, maybe are not bad at all as
difference is good too.

> Still we might need a separate foundation. For the coming months/year
> for LogiLogi, and later on we might morph into practically a free
> software foundation for the web... But we will be discussing this Free
> Software philosophy thing on LogiLogi sometime soon :)
>
bet on that!

> Anyway; good luck tomorrow :) Got to grab some sleep for my
> presentation now. Might be able to stay in Barcelona untill the 20th.
>

It all went well at the presentation, people asked questions and
participated. There were something like 18 people. I was very nervous
but after starting got focused.

It's been great to present logilogi, I learned a lot. Also, your
presentation/justification is exelent.

Also, the people incharge of the web of the faculty considered to
install logilogi tu use it instead of a forum, which I thought it
would be a great idea (looking forward the api) and oportunity to work
out problems. Maybe someone is also interested in coding for the
university... anyway, I really loved how things moved, people was very
motivated... I was wearing the LL shirt, so maybe that has something
todo... :)

I'll write another mail tomorrow about the talk.

later!


> Wybo
>


-- 
Bruno

> Hi all,
> 
> I'm doing my presentation in some hours from now... I probably wont
> check the mail till tomorrow so I just wanted to say good luck to Wybo
> in tomorrows conference!
> 
> I'm glad we are presenting logilogi on both sides of the world almost
> simuntaniouslly :)

:) You also all the best of luck, and indeed great to be presenting on
LogiLogi across the globe :)

2 presentations on LogiLogi in Spanish speaking areas half a world
apart :)

Had some conversations with Stallman again. Probably we will never
agree but the conversations were good :) Not during the questions,
there he was quite hostile, but later at the reception he was... at
least not hostile :) and even slightly nice.

Still we might need a separate foundation. For the coming months/year
for LogiLogi, and later on we might morph into practically a free 
software foundation for the web... But we will be discussing this Free
Software philosophy thing on LogiLogi sometime soon :)

Anyway; good luck tomorrow :) Got to grab some sleep for my
presentation now. Might be able to stay in Barcelona untill the 20th.

Wybo

> I'll write tomorro to say how all went...
> 
> Greetings!
> 
> -- 
> Bruno

Hi all,

I'm doing my presentation in some hours from now... I probably wont
check the mail till tomorrow so I just wanted to say good luck to Wybo
in tomorrows conference!

I'm glad we are presenting logilogi on both sides of the world almost
simuntaniouslly :)

I'll write tomorro to say how all went...

Greetings!

-- 
Bruno

> > Hi from Barcelona. Finally connected again :)

The internet-connection in the youthostel appears to be quite flaky,
and it even died alltogether last evening, and honestly I was not
doing anything I wasn't supposed to :)

> > & Miguel, I hoped to have seen a commit, and some news about you being
> > able to come to the FKFT conference, but so far I've not spotted an
> > e-mail.
> 
> Unofrtunaly I couldn't make it to go to Barcelona, I really don't have
> the money at this moment to pay a ticket. I didn't write you before

I understand. Even the youthostels are expensive here. However I did
manage to hitchike from Mont-de-Marsan to here :) Anyway hitchiking
may not be for everyone, and for the way back I think I am going to
take a last-minute low budget flight, as hitchiking from Barcelona to
Amsterdam would probably take at least 3 or 4 days, making it as
expensive as flying...

> because I have a couple of friends that are going to go to Barcelona,
> till yesterday I hoped there were going to leave before the
> presentation but finally they are going this friday.

Auch, sad.

> Wish you both Bruno and Wybo, good conferences tomorrow!

Thanks :)

> Miguel
> 
> PS: today I worked a lot on LL, I am trying to fix some javascript
> errors that appear on FF3 when loading the tinyMCE theme without
> toolbar on the wizards.
> I updated the tinyMCE version, and now I am debugging the error (not
> having much luck). I will commit this tomorrow.

Ok. If you might not be able to find the error, and might be able to
do the text-selection faster/cleaner without tinymce (but still in an
overbox without links & stuff in), that's ok too.

> PS2: Bruno, if you still have som trouble with the presentation or you
> need me to do something I can work on it tomorrow morning during your
> sleep.
> And my father and my brother will be at you presentation tomorrow :),

:)

Wybo

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 9:50 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> Hi from Barcelona. Finally connected again :)
>
> Yes Bruno I do agree that we need content. But I think in order to get
> more content we need to fix some pressing UI & usabillity-issues, like
> the front-page, remark removal, no disappearing cursor, etc...
>
> & Miguel, I hoped to have seen a commit, and some news about you being
> able to come to the FKFT conference, but so far I've not spotted an
> e-mail.
>

Unofrtunaly I couldn't make it to go to Barcelona, I really don't have
the money at this moment to pay a ticket. I didn't write you before
because I have a couple of friends that are going to go to Barcelona,
till yesterday I hoped there were going to leave before the
presentation but finally they are going this friday.

Wish you both Bruno and Wybo, good conferences tomorrow!

Miguel

PS: today I worked a lot on LL, I am trying to fix some javascript
errors that appear on FF3 when loading the tinyMCE theme without
toolbar on the wizards.
I updated the tinyMCE version, and now I am debugging the error (not
having much luck). I will commit this tomorrow.

PS2: Bruno, if you still have som trouble with the presentation or you
need me to do something I can work on it tomorrow morning during your
sleep.
And my father and my brother will be at you presentation tomorrow :),

Hi from Barcelona. Finally connected again :)

Yes Bruno I do agree that we need content. But I think in order to get
more content we need to fix some pressing UI & usabillity-issues, like 
the front-page, remark removal, no disappearing cursor, etc...

& Miguel, I hoped to have seen a commit, and some news about you being
able to come to the FKFT conference, but so far I've not spotted an
e-mail.

& Steffen, how are things ? Still willing to look at the JS compression ?

I will be home again in about a week, so then I'll be able to do some
badly needed devving again :)

The priority now really is usabillity, usabillity and usabillity.

Then, I think we need to open up, with RSS-feeds and such.

And the 3rd stage is an extension of this opening up by splitting up
into separate services, creating a browser-plugin etc... more on this
later...

Also about a move to a new UI-design, I think it is ok, as long as we
do it gradually, so introduce changes bit by bit, so we keep a working
UI at all times... (& get feedback from users).

About translating the UI to Spanish, LogiLogi would need Gettext
support for that & while not impossible, it does take some work &
coding to make this work.

@ the newcomers; Having any problems with installation, or is all
clear and going fine ? Feel free to ask :)

> Yesterday I went to a "pizza-conf" of the ruby users group here in
> Uruguay to introduce to them LL. It was all great, very interesting
> and I got to introduce them a little bit of LL, but I need to get more
> into the code to be able to explain better technical stuff to
> developers. I'd also like to do the same to the Ruby group at Buenos
> Aires, I'll try to arrange that later.
> 
> So far, it was all good and they liked the project :)

Great to hear! :)

> Also, I've been inevitable repeating once and again to everybody "what
> is logilogi", mostly as I'm doing my presentation tomorrow and also as
> I come here to visit all my friends and every body want's to know, and
> I want to tell too :) And so far this is being really great, I'm
> learning a lot from this experience.
> 
> Wybo, as I said before, my presentation is a reduced and
> less-technical presentation based on yours. Your presentation is very
> good, condenced and mature, it's great how it evolves over time, and I
> might have some suggestions, I'll write about them later.

Please if so, do it before tomorrow evening as my presentation is 
on wednesday at 11:45.

> It's about the name "peergroup", which in spanish is translated as
> "grupo de pares", which is not very "nice" "compact"... I've been
> explaining LL with this words for some time and it happens not to be
> the best, but it's actually the best translation. Other option I've
> just come up with is to call it "communities", so LL would have
> "communities" from which perspective you can navigate/rate LL... This
> name in spanish works better as it's "comunidad", which actually is a
> good term, as it means a group o people who share interests...  it'd
> like to know what do you all think about this?

If in spanish it does have a connotation of shared interest that is
good :) In English and Dutch the word for communities does not have it
namely... The word is here mostly used for socially & locally
connected groups..

Anyway, good luck tomorrow! :)

Wybo

> later...
> -- 
> Bruno

Hi all,

Yesterday I went to a "pizza-conf" of the ruby users group here in
Uruguay to introduce to them LL. It was all great, very interesting
and I got to introduce them a little bit of LL, but I need to get more
into the code to be able to explain better technical stuff to
developers. I'd also like to do the same to the Ruby group at Buenos
Aires, I'll try to arrange that later.

So far, it was all good and they liked the project :)

Also, I've been inevitable repeating once and again to everybody "what
is logilogi", mostly as I'm doing my presentation tomorrow and also as
I come here to visit all my friends and every body want's to know, and
I want to tell too :) And so far this is being really great, I'm
learning a lot from this experience.

Wybo, as I said before, my presentation is a reduced and
less-technical presentation based on yours. Your presentation is very
good, condenced and mature, it's great how it evolves over time, and I
might have some suggestions, I'll write about them later.

It's about the name "peergroup", which in spanish is translated as
"grupo de pares", which is not very "nice" "compact"... I've been
explaining LL with this words for some time and it happens not to be
the best, but it's actually the best translation. Other option I've
just come up with is to call it "communities", so LL would have
"communities" from which perspective you can navigate/rate LL... This
name in spanish works better as it's "comunidad", which actually is a
good term, as it means a group o people who share interests...  it'd
like to know what do you all think about this?

later...
-- 
Bruno