logilogi-list Mailing List for LogiLogi - Software Libre for the Web (Page 13)

Hello,
My name is Thomas Smith and I have been programming for about one year. I
have just recently started exploring Ruby and Ruby on Rails, I am excited to
be here on my first open source project. I hope to met and collaborate with
everyone participating. I usually have a fair amount of time on my hands,
and this seems the best way to learn besides self study.

Wybo,

This logi you've just extended is certainly the best I've read
explaining the need for freedom on the web. Also, I'd appreciate
further reading if you have.

= Libre Community Network
My logi about "Red comunitaria libre" (which is just a tiny rough
paragraph) has a lot to do with your writings, or I rather say that
what you just wrote could be the base or starting philosophy point of
the concept/idea/project I'm trying to develop. I've been thinking
about this ideas for some time now, and I've always thought that the
first step to take toward the concretion was to create a place where
to debate on how to build itself up, and we could say that step has
been taken, so next, I'll write down my proposal.

I'm also writing this mail to condense many thoughts that I have going
around and that have been triggered by all the activity at logilogi
including the preparation of my presentation, the working on the UI
I've been doing and others...

= Rating over changes
When I read the first stub of /Free_Software/Web, I thought it was ok
but not complete and I just rate it 3/5. Now, after the additions I
think it is a solid 5/5. I already asked Wybo about how this was
managed, and ratings are reset every week I think, so this is good,
but we could do it some other way, for example it occurs me that when
a logi is modified we could set to "modifiable" the rating (so we are
able to rate it again one time). Other way would be to just liberate
the rating to always be modifiable, but I guess you already have some
good reason for not doing this.

= It's LL time
We've come to know about other projects that are on the same or
similar paths as LL during the last time, and I certainly see this is
very encouraging as it gives us the notion of great moment for the
philosophy debate online type of projects to arise. This is both
driven by the needs and the circumstances, and I see all are
converging now... You Wybo are certainly on the eye of the storm right
now and one can feel it although far away :)

= Logilogi and the "right way"
I was writing some thoughts [0] to the list, but decided to just write
to LL, and it feels good :)

= Writing from peergroup?
Does it matter what peer-group we are in to post a logi?

= User Interfase
My bad, but I haven't spent time on the UI and rather writing and
researching a little bit. I'll probably spend the weekend over the UI
to finally commit it.

Later all.

[0] http://es.logilogi.org/Logi_Logi/Online_Philosophy_Debate/The_Right_Way
-- 
Bruno

Wybo, thank you very much for your reply, I know you're short of time.

On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
>
>> = Best practices
>> phenomena can be functional" logis... I see a logi truncated looses
>> the concept of LogiLogi... what do you think?
>
> Agree.
>
Well, by now we could solve it with comment-logis or remarks at least
to connect them.

>> I'm working on another approach that will come along my UI proposal.
>
> Will see it, looking forward to it :)

I'll commit them soon... I just don't want to commit with so
unfinished parts as it's now...

>> = Remarks reply
> That would reintroduce threads, no remarks are just for short shouts.
>
I see we could give space to threaded-remarks to allow discussion that
would not fit on a logi... we'll see what the need is on the go.


>
> --- WOOOT :)
>
> Richard Stallmann entered the building while I was typing a reply!
>
> Very weird, to see a person like him for the first time in one's life... :)
>

Wow, those sort of things are what makes our world smaller and our mind bigger.

>> = Webs
>> I've found this project [1] which looks very interesting and has a
>> different approach but similar purpose to logilogi.
>
> Is slightly interesting indeed, although I already knew it and it works with
> propositions and they claim they are having/wanting software-patents to it, so
> I dont like it that much...
>
ouch, software-patents for propositional logic? crazy.

>
> I am currently cleaning some stuff up in preparation for the replacement of the
> front-page might do a test-version of that some time in the coming days.
>

Looking foward this :)

later.

-- 
Bruno

Hereby the blog-post of our DH 2008 presentation.

Also some good news in it regarding possible cooperation :)

http://foundation.logilogi.org/2008/7/3/digital-humanities-2008

Wybo

After I am home in 2,5 weeks I will answer more extensively, but for
now already a few quick replies to some parts of it.

> = Papers
> Wybo, reading your posts "Historic Essays", and I wonder, why write a
> logi pointing to a pdf? wouldn't it be better to write it right to
> logis? as a pdf it loses the point of logilogi I think... Also, for

You're right, was just lack of time to do it properly.

> this purpose it would be nice to have some kind of document structure
> (logis relations as talked before) so you can split up a paper in
> logis (Index, introduction... conclusion) and have them group
> together... This could be also achieved by tags, but I don't think
> tags are meant for this type of reference...

Longer term I think.

> = Best practices
> I've been reading last logis submited, and this is what really get
> things going! We can already see some problems to solve for example on
> over-length logis like "Functionalism" by Kalle, that he opted to
> split it up, and I think he was forced to do something that is not
> good... I think we should deal with this problem by trying to model
> good writing practices. We could suggest good practices when the
> maximum word count is overpassed, for example in this "Functionalism"
> logi, it could have been splited by three "entities for which social
> phenomena can be functional" logis... I see a logi truncated looses
> the concept of LogiLogi... what do you think?

Agree.

> = Multiple authors
> Wouldn't it be nice to be able to add authors to logis? many papers
> are written by more than one person... This would be part of the logi
> meta data, which could have lot's more of information, like
> contributors, references, bibliography, etc... what do you all think
> about this? what you had in mind for this wybo?

Logis are so short that it is not really needed soon I think.

> Also by the way, I've just read an interesting paper [0] from Larry
> Sanger, in which he asks himself "Should science communication be
> collaborative?" While reading it I found some of the problems (if not
> all) he mentions are actually solved by Logilogi, which is very
> encouraging, and we should contact him (again) to let him know
> Logilogi could be the answer (in case this mail mentioning his name
> don't call him). Also Logilogi is more oriented to humanity related
> discussions, but in the future the same model could work for other
> areas.

If we've fixed the most pressing bugs & usabillity issues we could
indeed... :)

> = Text editor
> Why isn't bold style accepted? too disturbing? Note that shorcuts
> still work for bold "ctrl+b".

Indeed, too disturbing.

> = Overbox
> I don't know what you'all think about this, but now that I've started
> editing at LL, I realized that it's very uncofortable the
> Overbox-way... Mostly because my browser is slowed down and for
> example if by mistake I click outside the box it looses the data...
> Also when it gives me a "too long error" the data is also lost :(

Only a problem on slow PC's, and it can also be fixed by removing the
transparency from the overbox-background.

> I'm working on another approach that will come along my UI proposal.

Will see it, looking forward to it :)

> = Remarks reply
> Well, it seems that remarks should haver a bit more features than just
> that, it looks like they will be the "chat/conversation/noice" arround
> the logi, which is good to keep it apart of the important content.

That would reintroduce threads, no remarks are just for short shouts.

> = IRC Bot
> Wouldn't it be nice to have a logilogi bot? maybe to notify at the
> channel of new logis? certainly bots are very interesting :)

Cool.

> = Recent changes RSS
> wouldn't it be nice and easy? :)

Cool & added a task for it.

--- WOOOT :)

Richard Stallmann entered the building while I was typing a reply!

Very weird, to see a person like him for the first time in one's life... :)

I have a photograph with me and Stallmann together, though he was talking to
someone else while it was taken.

Sadly enough he did not remember me from the mail-conversations...

---

> = Bugs
> Special characters in tags does not work right, it throughs 500 error.

Filed a bug for it.
 
> When creating a new peergroup, after entering the name if return
> pressed it seems to cancel instead of submit.

Filed a bug for it.

> You might already seen it, remarks popovers stretch too the conent
> instead of having a fixed with.

Filed a bug for it.

> When logged in at en.logilogi I'm not to other languages.

Filed a bug for it.

> When canceling a remark addition or link addition, the remarks box
> (not the one in the overbox) is resized, and also, if I go back to the
> overbox for adding the link or remark it will not work right and not
> show the logi text.

Was already filed as a bug.
 
> = Webs
> I've found this project [1] which looks very interesting and has a
> different approach but similar purpose to logilogi.

Is slightly interesting indeed, although I already knew it and it works with
propositions and they claim they are having/wanting software-patents to it, so
I dont like it that much...

> Also miguel found this other website [2], which has not much to do
> with LL, but certainly has some nice features.

Indeed, this one is very interesting, thanks :)

> I'm still working on the UI, and I'll make an effort to commit
> something tonight, even if it's not finished, as I want both your
> critic and collaboration.

Cool :)

I am currently cleaning some stuff up in preparation for the replacement of the
front-page might do a test-version of that some time in the coming days.

greetings,

Wybo Wiersma

> Later all.
> 
> [0] http://www.larrysanger.org/scicomm.html
> [1] http://truthmapping.com
> [2] http://ameritocracy.com/
> -- 
> Bruno

----- Original Message -----
From: Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...>
Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:03 am
Subject: Re: [LogiLogi-list] Javascript problem! Steffen ?

> > I got LogiLogi running in production mode, but then still 
> everything works fine.
> > 
> > I added some error messages to compressed_javascript_include_tag. If
> > you could try it on the server again, maybe I can see what is going
> > wrong.
> 
> I just set it up on http://edge.logilogi.org
> 
> But it does not seem to be doing any compression, though the code in
> there is the current trunk-version, which does have compression
> enabled....
> 
> <%= compressed_javascript_include_tag :defaults, "dropdowntabs", 
> "modalbox", "llcorners", :cache => true %>
> 
> Hope you can derive something from it,
> 
> Wybo

Sorry for my late response, but I had two exams this week.

I have really no idea why there is no compression, since when I run Webrick locally in production mode it works. But I have an idea what might go wrong when compressing the file. Next weekend I will have some time to rewrite the code. I hope I can make it work then.

Hi all,

While writing my notes to present for the conference here at Bs. As.,
and also while learning more about the current working of LL, I come
across some questions and thoughts, here they are:

= Papers
Wybo, reading your posts "Historic Essays", and I wonder, why write a
logi pointing to a pdf? wouldn't it be better to write it right to
logis? as a pdf it loses the point of logilogi I think... Also, for
this purpose it would be nice to have some kind of document structure
(logis relations as talked before) so you can split up a paper in
logis (Index, introduction... conclusion) and have them group
together... This could be also achieved by tags, but I don't think
tags are meant for this type of reference...

= Best practices
I've been reading last logis submited, and this is what really get
things going! We can already see some problems to solve for example on
over-length logis like "Functionalism" by Kalle, that he opted to
split it up, and I think he was forced to do something that is not
good... I think we should deal with this problem by trying to model
good writing practices. We could suggest good practices when the
maximum word count is overpassed, for example in this "Functionalism"
logi, it could have been splited by three "entities for which social
phenomena can be functional" logis... I see a logi truncated looses
the concept of LogiLogi... what do you think?

= Multiple authors
Wouldn't it be nice to be able to add authors to logis? many papers
are written by more than one person... This would be part of the logi
meta data, which could have lot's more of information, like
contributors, references, bibliography, etc... what do you all think
about this? what you had in mind for this wybo?

Also by the way, I've just read an interesting paper [0] from Larry
Sanger, in which he asks himself "Should science communication be
collaborative?" While reading it I found some of the problems (if not
all) he mentions are actually solved by Logilogi, which is very
encouraging, and we should contact him (again) to let him know
Logilogi could be the answer (in case this mail mentioning his name
don't call him). Also Logilogi is more oriented to humanity related
discussions, but in the future the same model could work for other
areas.

= Text editor
Why isn't bold style accepted? too disturbing? Note that shorcuts
still work for bold "ctrl+b".

= Overbox
I don't know what you'all think about this, but now that I've started
editing at LL, I realized that it's very uncofortable the
Overbox-way... Mostly because my browser is slowed down and for
example if by mistake I click outside the box it looses the data...
Also when it gives me a "too long error" the data is also lost :(

I'm working on another approach that will come along my UI proposal.

= Remarks reply
Well, it seems that remarks should haver a bit more features than just
that, it looks like they will be the "chat/conversation/noice" arround
the logi, which is good to keep it apart of the important content.

= IRC Bot
Wouldn't it be nice to have a logilogi bot? maybe to notify at the
channel of new logis? certainly bots are very interesting :)

= Recent changes RSS
wouldn't it be nice and easy? :)

= Bugs
Special characters in tags does not work right, it throughs 500 error.

When creating a new peergroup, after entering the name if return
pressed it seems to cancel instead of submit.

You might already seen it, remarks popovers stretch too the conent
instead of having a fixed with.

When logged in at en.logilogi I'm not to other languages.

When canceling a remark addition or link addition, the remarks box
(not the one in the overbox) is resized, and also, if I go back to the
overbox for adding the link or remark it will not work right and not
show the logi text.

= Webs
I've found this project [1] which looks very interesting and has a
different approach but similar purpose to logilogi.
Also miguel found this other website [2], which has not much to do
with LL, but certainly has some nice features.


I'm still working on the UI, and I'll make an effort to commit
something tonight, even if it's not finished, as I want both your
critic and collaboration.

Later all.

[0] http://www.larrysanger.org/scicomm.html
[1] http://truthmapping.com
[2] http://ameritocracy.com/
-- 
Bruno

Hi Wybo!

It's great to know read your news that are always good and motivating!

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> And another presentation went well :)
>
> Was quite a trip here, and had to spend a night in the train-station.
> Got some sleep this morning and then gave the presentation :)
>
Looks like some sacrifice, and also adventure, I bet you're enjoying it! :)

>
> Just committed the presentation, and an update of the peergroup
> schema. Turned it into 7 separate slides.
>
looks good and clear!

> Hope you Miguel, and Bruno are ok & having some summer-fun,
>
Well, I'm actually in Winter, and on the productive time of the year
I'd say... I've been working on LL UI and writing some mails that I'll
send soon, one of those long-multi-topic mails :)

> greetings from Manta and me in France ;),
>

Greeting Wybo! keep up the Manta adventure! :P


-- 
Bruno

And another presentation went well :)

Was quite a trip here, and had to spend a night in the train-station.
Got some sleep this morning and then gave the presentation :)

Most people only seem to speak French here, so that makes for a
learning-experience for me ;)

Just committed the presentation, and an update of the peergroup
schema. Turned it into 7 separate slides.

Hope you Miguel, and Bruno are ok & having some summer-fun,

Now let's see how the discussion on LL takes off. But don't expect
that much of it, as there are still quite some usabillity issues
unresolved, and this might scare pplz off. Also conferences are always
very busy for most pplz, not the situation to write a good logi or
more.

But we'll see, friday at 11:45 the next presentation will be.

greetings from Manta and me in France ;),

Wybo Wiersma

> Wybow,
> 
> I saw that you're looking for a documentation writer for
> LogiLogi. I'm a technical writer with 11 years of
> experience, looking for something to work on. I'm not a Ruby
> programmer, but I learn fast. I see that you have a fairly
> complete programmer reference documentation available. What
> kind of documentation do you need created?

Great, you're most welcome. We especially could use some user-
documentation. It videos/screencasts would also be great.

http://www.LogiLogi.org/Help would be a good place to start.

feel welcome, and introduce yourself a bit more here, if you 
want (like earlier projects & where are you from),

Wybo Wiersma

> --Stephanie (aka: mortaine on SF.net)

PS: Saw you subscribed to the list, so I replied there.

The presentation went really well :)

Will put a blog-article up in some time, but probably after tuesday.
The presentation as given is in the repository and can be read as
plaintext... Otherwise a few days waiting :)

We have a dinner again tonight, and then I will prepare our tuesday-
presentation. which will be a challenge. Tomorrow there is a small
excursion to a national park, and then - without much sleep inbetween
- I will come back to France.

Would be cool to meet you some time there, or in Barcelona, Miguel,
any news on the posibillity to do this yet ? Will be fun at the RMLL /
FKFT conferences with Stallmann around.

/me is now trying out the Remark removal, halfway there, curions :)

Wybo

> > They could be the other way. I've also been thinking about showing
> > small speeh-clouds with the ones that are embedded.
> 
> I'm not sure if I understand... speech-clouds like little icons
> showing that they have a popover over the logi?

Indeed :)

I'm quite happy with the diagram

I might pull them into different images for easier access and will use
them in the tuesday presentation at the RMLL :)

We've also had the first derived work & I added a small writeup on the
Post Mail Philosophers peergroup.

Wybo

> -- 
> Bruno

Lo, tomorrow is the Digital Humanities presentation :)

(saw again quite some interesting stuff, like the people from
http://etcl.uvic.ca/, who also do Rails-stuff & might be 
interested in collaboration)

Hope the devving on the remarks-removal is not stranded on any
problems and maybe almost done already ? :), so I can update it in 
the morning.

Steffen how are things with the JS-compression ? Found the edge
version useful or set up a local lighttpd ?

I added some stuff on future plans to the RMLL presentation. You can
see it here:
http://logilogi.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/logilogi/trunk/doc/presentations/RMLL2008/some_future_plans.tex?view=markup

Remarks/comments/additions are most, most welcome & this couldn't do
without :) (it's for the presentation on tuesday, at the RMLL)

Hope all is well :) We have nothing this evening, so after doing a bit
more on the RMLL-presentation (will have not much time between the DH-
one and that one) I will probably try to get some good sleep :)

greetings,

Wybo

> I got LogiLogi running in production mode, but then still everything works fine.
> 
> I added some error messages to compressed_javascript_include_tag. If
> you could try it on the server again, maybe I can see what is going
> wrong.

I just set it up on http://edge.logilogi.org

But it does not seem to be doing any compression, though the code in
there is the current trunk-version, which does have compression
enabled....

<%= compressed_javascript_include_tag :defaults, "dropdowntabs", "modalbox", "llcorners", :cache => true %>

Hope you can derive something from it,

Wybo

> Bruno diagrams where a success to explain the peer review idea!

I will be using them too :)

Wybo

> > Miguel good luck with your presentation, let us know how it went &
> > what was the reaction of the Wikipedia guy,
> 
> Thanks Wybo, my presentation went not so good as I get a lot blocked
> with my french and also because it was my first, besides that they

Sad, but good to have the practice.

> where all very interested with the project and the "Wikipedia guy"
> told me that he will keep in touch with me, as he wanted to discuss in
> more deeply the theory behinds LogiLogi and there was no time there

Cool :)

> after the presentation. He presents me a project to which he is
> involved, a tool to mointor the activity of contributors in
> web-system("http://overcrowded.anoptique.org/ProjetAutograph"). He
> show me an example with a frozen mirror of
> wikipedia(http://wikipediaviz.lri.fr).

It looks interesting, but I can't make that much of it, because of the
French. Also it keeps popping up a login-box for mebeeper.com.

But indeed it seems possible to count the quantity of contributions of
users in Wikipedia and sites like it, and maybe even some measure of
quality as in finding edits that did not get overwritten quickly.

> Now I will drink some beer to celebrate the end of the year and to
> forget my lags in french :)

:) A virtual cheers!

> I will be adding the remarks overbox tomorrow, hope you understand.

Yup of course, having a beer and a small party in celebration of
achievements is as important as the achievments themselves :)

Like 2 sides of the same medal :)

Looking forward to the remark-removal overbox,

Wybo

> Greetings
> 
> 
> Miguel

Bruno diagrams where a success to explain the peer review idea!

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 5:59 PM, Miguel Lezama <le...@gm...> wrote:
>>
>> Miguel good luck with your presentation, let us know how it went &
>> what was the reaction of the Wikipedia guy,
>>
>
> Thanks Wybo, my presentation went not so good as I get a lot blocked
> with my french and also because it was my first, besides that they
> where all very interested with the project and the "Wikipedia guy"
> told me that he will keep in touch with me, as he wanted to discuss in
> more deeply the theory behinds LogiLogi and there was no time there
> after the presentation. He presents me a project  to which he is
> involved, a tool to mointor the activity of contributors in
> web-system("http://overcrowded.anoptique.org/ProjetAutograph"). He
> show me an example with a frozen mirror of
> wikipedia(http://wikipediaviz.lri.fr).
>
>
> Now I will drink some beer to celebrate the end of the year and to
> forget my lags in french :)
>
> I will be adding the remarks overbox tomorrow, hope you understand.
>
>
> Greetings
>
>
> Miguel
>

>
> Miguel good luck with your presentation, let us know how it went &
> what was the reaction of the Wikipedia guy,
>

Thanks Wybo, my presentation went not so good as I get a lot blocked
with my french and also because it was my first, besides that they
where all very interested with the project and the "Wikipedia guy"
told me that he will keep in touch with me, as he wanted to discuss in
more deeply the theory behinds LogiLogi and there was no time there
after the presentation. He presents me a project  to which he is
involved, a tool to mointor the activity of contributors in
web-system("http://overcrowded.anoptique.org/ProjetAutograph"). He
show me an example with a frozen mirror of
wikipedia(http://wikipediaviz.lri.fr).


Now I will drink some beer to celebrate the end of the year and to
forget my lags in french :)

I will be adding the remarks overbox tomorrow, hope you understand.


Greetings


Miguel

> > Sorry, I didn't have the time to look at it earlier. There are
> > always so many things you have to do at the end of a semester....
> 
> Happens. I hope you will still be able to do it :)
> 

I will certainly fix it. You can help me if you try out the ' compressed_javascript_include_tag' on the server again and tell me if you get one of the error messages I recently added.

Bruno I like the image explainin the formulas very much!

Still some small mistake though, the power of the rating of Hello
Workld 1 should be 12.8, not 9.

Could you maybe also reshape it a bit so it fits on a slide (step 1 &
2 separate images, for on separate slides), and then commit it to
docs/presentations/images in the trunk ?

I would be able to use it in the FKFT/RMLL presentation too :)

Miguel good luck with your presentation, let us know how it went &
what was the reaction of the Wikipedia guy,

Wybo

> > They could be the other way. I've also been thinking about showing
> > small speeh-clouds with the ones that are embedded.
> 
> I'm not sure if I understand... speech-clouds like little icons
> showing that they have a popover over the logi?

Indeed, that you can click on and then the cloud will open in the
Logi.

Wybo

> -- 
> Bruno

>
> They could be the other way. I've also been thinking about showing
> small speeh-clouds with the ones that are embedded.
>

I'm not sure if I understand... speech-clouds like little icons
showing that they have a popover over the logi?

-- 
Bruno

> Hi all,
> 
> Sorry I'm just participating with the writing and not coding...
> 
> Just to ask, at the remarks sidebar, why are the "not marked" remarks
> colored and the ones "marked" at the page white? shouldn't this be the
> other way?

They could be the other way. I've also been thinking about showing
small speeh-clouds with the ones that are embedded.

Wybo

> -- 
> Bruno

Hi all,

Sorry I'm just participating with the writing and not coding...

Just to ask, at the remarks sidebar, why are the "not marked" remarks
colored and the ones "marked" at the page white? shouldn't this be the
other way?

-- 
Bruno

> PPS: Some new folk might come in shortly as I posted on SF that
> some more devvers would be welcome with LL Manta... Got in the first
> e-mail this morning...
>

Great to know that!

-- 
Bruno