logilogi-list Mailing List for LogiLogi - Software Libre for the Web (Page 15)

There is a js-problem with the currenty trunk-version, and now also
with the live version. Steffen you know what is going wrong (seems
related to your changes) ?

Would be great if you could fix it as wensday the talk will be...

> Today It was not a good day of development for me as I received some
> bad news from the university. I wanted to do the next year half at a
> company half at classes, they initially accepted me but today they
> told me that foreign European Union people can't do that kind of
> contract with the company and the university, so if I find a job I
> will be doing a standard last year.

Sorry to hear this, really sucks...

More tomorrow, got to get some sleep now,

Wybo

> > greetings from France,
> also
> 
> Miguel

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> Hi all, I arrived well in Montpellier :) A really beautiful city!
>

Cool you like it, I hope there is a better climate than here...as it
is been raining for some weeks now

> The conference starts in about an hour, and I just checked out your
> commit Miguel. It looks good. Or rather it works well, for the looks &
> toolbar I just made a small commit...
>
Hope the conference was a success

> Sorry I could not be there last afternoon, but I arrived a bit late.
>
> Judging from your commit-message I wonder whether you consider the
> Remarks-code to be ready for the live version ? Judging from a quick
> manual test it seems to work well, but if possible it would be great
> if you could add some functional & unit-tests today, and make sure it
> works so I can update the live version this evening ?
>

I think it works well for the live version, it only needs some
unnecessary (not being used) code to be removed but it's ok for the
live version. We can also discuss the presentation, for example it
would be better to differentiate the links from the remarks.
Another thing is that as it is now the positioned remarks are showed
at the remarks list, but I think it could be better to only show the
ones not positioned.

Today It was not a good day of development for me as I received some
bad news from the university. I wanted to do the next year half at a
company half at classes, they initially accepted me but today they
told me that foreign European Union people can't do that kind of
contract with the company and the university, so if I find a job I
will be doing a standard last year.

> greetings from France,
also

Miguel

Hi all, I arrived well in Montpellier :) A really beautiful city!

The conference starts in about an hour, and I just checked out your
commit Miguel. It looks good. Or rather it works well, for the looks &
toolbar I just made a small commit...

Sorry I could not be there last afternoon, but I arrived a bit late.

Judging from your commit-message I wonder whether you consider the
Remarks-code to be ready for the live version ? Judging from a quick
manual test it seems to work well, but if possible it would be great
if you could add some functional & unit-tests today, and make sure it
works so I can update the live version this evening ?

greetings from France,

Wybo

I am about to leave for france in a min, to present LogiLogi at 4
different conferences :) The first is to be the ECAP08
(http://www.lirmm.fr/ecap08/)

Big thanks to you all, as without all of us, Manta would not have been
possible..!

I will get online where I can, and besides improving the presentations
on the go, I might also find time to do some small devving... After
each talk I will report on the blog :)

Also expect some discussions to get going on Manta, as at least at the
RMLL there will be an announced debate on Manta during the week,

greetings,

Wybo Wiersma

PS: The printerfriendly task is closed & ok now, I refactored a bit
yesterday...

PPS: If any of you has any comments on the presentations, please let
me know :) They might not build yet, but from the tex-files you can
also see much...

I just came across www.planetmath.org and www.squidoo.com via the
paper attached to
http://www.wiki-debate.org/xwiki/bin/view/Ethical+and+Political+Dimensions/Neither+Wikipedia+nor+Knol

www.squidoo.com could be a gorilla in our room, as it is close to
manta in some respects (multiple docs with the same name, rating &
ranking), except for that it is overly commercial, and does not have
great linking-features...

Still it has some good things too, and is quite successfull.

www.Planetmath.org is really interesting as it is a serious science
site doing web2.0 stuff, with communities and author-ranking, etc for
math... Inspiring to see that it is possible there, so we can do it
too with manta!

In all interesting to see that our concepts do work, and so we can
make them work for philosophy & discussions!

---

About the logi-remarks. How are things going Miguel. Is it already
possible to add them with ranges ?

I hope you will be able to get the addition of remarks and their
display in clouds working before the start of the conference (monday),
as this would really add usefull functionality to manta, and it should
not be too hard to do. Most of it can be copied from the link-adding &
display...

Same goes for the IE7 bugs. It would be great, Bruno, if they were
fixed also this weekend...

greetings,

Wybo

PS: I just missed you two times this morning on IRC, Miguel...

PPS: The presentations are really starting to take shape now, and I
really get into the mood of telling the pplz there about Manta :)

I will also add some docs about how to build them with tex2pdf later
today...

> > The size is not really an issue I think as most of us are on broadband
> > anyway, aren't we ?
>
> Yes, so I'll upload it to the svn as UI_proposal_A_V2.1.svg

Just received it.

> > About your proposal: First of all, I don't think we will be able to
> > overhaul the UI just before the conferences anymore, as there still
> > enough to fix...
>
> Ok, I didn't intend it for before the meeting, while I was motivated
> about it... :)

Ok I understand. 

Halfway july we can get back to it and start putting up proposals &
discuss them more. I will get back to it after the conferences...
 
> Also, I wanted to remark about the current fixes and issues. We've
> alread gone throught the most nasty problemas of crossbrowser, mostly
> rounded corners that you solved greatly, so now, to go through a new
> interfase would not be so much work, and we will take in count from
> the beginning the current needs (new features, frontpage, etc), and
> others... This is also why I'm using the same elements and moving the
> arround, not becouse it's easier, but in order not to change so many
> things. In my current examples though, it could seem different because
> I removed the background boxes (and colours), but that was just
> testing...

Indeed & ok, and yes the new frontpage will require some refactoring.

> > I am using a dual-monitor setup of 2 cheap-ass TFT's @ 1280x1024, with
> > irremovable color-differences even between them...
>
> I work on my laptop which is an Acer Aspire 5050, only thing I know
> bout it is 14.1" "WXGA Acer CrystaBrite LCD

Ok. That should be fairly ok with a 1200x800 resolution. I think we
should aim for a minimum width of 1024, and still look good, that is
not too crammed at 1280x1024.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_resolution

> > While the colors look faded on one, there is surely enough space to
> > see the Logi & panels on both of them (On my EEE-pc with 1024x600 on
> > the other hand all one sees are the top-bars & the title)
> 
> I don't understand this point. What I intended to do was actually to
> design LL to even fit mobile phones (if it was html :). The sidebars
> would float left and go to the bottom of the logi if there werer no
> room...

I think this is a nice idea, but we have to be a bit practical too.
Also some of the browser-compatibility-hacks we applied require fixed
positioning of some elements... Also I think that first of all the
site should look good at normal monitors, and no sacrifice in terms
of that should be made to make it more flexible or resizable.

This because imho soon enough (a few years) all mobile phones / PDA's
with webbrowsing capabilities will also have 1024xX screens, and
vanilla browsers, so all work would have been in vain...

> > Good in the proposal are, I tink:
> > - the rounded look of the requested/received bars
> > - the help-icons
> > - the user-picture in my_logilogi
> >
> > Bad/problematic are, I think:
> > - the search & requested/received bars are too short, should at least
> >  span till my_logilogi
> 
> Ok, I have to explain here a little bit. This layout was thought to
> have more ajax functionalityes, and the search and tagging is one of
> them. I whought of tags suggestions while typing and to add one tag at
> a time, while you could add multiple, the search box is small :)

That's an interesting idea, but then browsing down might be hard, or
quickly switching to another tree... But we will see at end of july...

> > - the overall crammed look of it, too little space between (@ my size
> >  monitor)
> 
> Yes, I agree with you on this, and also the white background with the
> soft-grey is not easy to read
> 
> > - the panels are too close together & I think better when panels
> 
> Certainly, it needs air... I'm not sure why I get obsesed with space
> and shrink it all together...

...indeed as the current layout surely looks spacious...

> > - the little calendar and the by - author name look good, and are
> >  missing here... (author name is there, but in a panel)
> 
> Yes, I also agree with you that they look good how they are now, but I
> thought it would be more clear and usefull if it was all logi-related
> information on the same place, but this is relative and we could try
> to fit the most relevant information of the logi, on the logi
> itself... Also about the calendar, I do like it, mostly when it's
> applied to blog posts, but I don't think it's being of use in this
> application, but this is probabbly becouse my perception of the
> elements is disturbed by the use I do of LL, proabbly someone else
> uses it and realizes that the date is over there and that is the date
> when it was created/modified... I would go for a plain boring "last
> modified: 11th June 2008"

Hm, you have a point there.

> > Ambiguous are:
> > - the toolbar is missing ?
> 
> Yes, I'm thinking about this. The gray bar over the logi would be a
> place to add the tool-bar... I'll think about this still.

'k

> > - where are the tabs and network-bar ?
> >
> 
> Also missing right now.
> 
> > Maybe more later, but this is it for now, as I got to get back to the
> > presentations-preparations... Also I will try to fix your account now...
> 
> Great, thanks for the critic and anybody elses opinion are also
> welcome! hope to keep more ideas comming.
> 
> Talk later!

Ok.

Wybo

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Miguel Lezama <le...@gm...> wrote:
> Hi Bruno,
>
> As I already say at the irc channel, I liked the idea of moving the
> info boxes to the top , I think that with a little javascript trick we
> can enlarge the search area when necessary.
Humm... I didn't thought about that, but it could work. The header
will get wider and the side panels should then float under it... it
could work since I have in mind to make the sidepanels floated...

Also as wybo proposed, the header and tags blocks could strech till
the second column. This would also take the current logi info right to
the side of the logi, which helps to associate them.

> I also like in the second approach the idea of stress the logi with a
> different color.
I've also tested with background color and white background boxes for
the panels and it looks good, it helps differentiate tools.

> and the already mentioned by Wybo: rounded look of the
> requested/received bars, help-icons and the user-picture
>
>
> Miguel
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Bruno <bs...@gm...> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:01 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I've spent some time today to get further in some ideas I had about
>>>> the layout and design of logilogi...
>>>>
>>>> This is a work in progress so I start exposing at what I'm working now
>>>> and ideas and critics are very well come.
>>>
>>> Ok, fasten your seatbelts :)
>>
>> :)
>>
>>>
>>>> I've added a page [1] about it at the wiki with 2 png images. I'm
>>>> willing to share the svg, it's 400kb and I'm not sure if to add it to
>>>> the svn as another file or upgrade the current svg (which is the
>>>> replica of the current layout)... I don't think it's good to add heavy
>>>> files to the svn. I'll probably upload it to the wiki.
>>>
>>> I think it's fine if you add it to the svn. Under a different name
>>> than the current, like ProposalA.svg, as probably when we come to the
>>> UI we will be copying and pasting between them & make new versions,
>>> etc...
>>>
>>> The size is not really an issue I think as most of us are on broadband
>>> anyway, aren't we ?
>>>
>> Yes, so I'll upload it to the svn as UI_proposal_A_V2.1.svg
>>
>>> About your proposal: First of all, I don't think we will be able to
>>> overhaul the UI just before the conferences anymore, as there still
>>> enough to fix...
>>>
>> Ok, I didn't intend it for before the meeting, while I was motivated
>> about it... :)
>>
>> Also, I wanted to remark about the current fixes and issues. We've
>> alread gone throught the most nasty problemas of crossbrowser, mostly
>> rounded corners that you solved greatly, so now, to go through a new
>> interfase would not be so much work, and we will take in count from
>> the beginning the current needs (new features, frontpage, etc), and
>> others... This is also why I'm using the same elements and moving the
>> arround, not becouse it's easier, but in order not to change so many
>> things. In my current examples though, it could seem different because
>> I removed the background boxes (and colours), but that was just
>> testing...
>>
>>> Secondly, I really do like some aspects of the proposal you made, but
>>> also dislike some parts of it. Also I have some questions.
>>>
>>> The questions:
>>>
>>> On what kind of monitor are you and Miguel (& others) ?
>>> I am using a dual-monitor setup of 2 cheap-ass TFT's @ 1280x1024, with
>>> irremovable color-differences even between them...
>>>
>> I work on my laptop which is an Acer Aspire 5050, only thing I know
>> bout it is 14.1" "WXGA Acer CrystaBrite LCD
>>
>>> While the colors look faded on one, there is surely enough space to
>>> see the Logi & panels on both of them (On my EEE-pc with 1024x600 on
>>> the other hand all one sees are the top-bars & the title)
>>
>> I don't understand this point. What I intended to do was actually to
>> design LL to even fit mobile phones (if it was html :). The sidebars
>> would float left and go to the bottom of the logi if there werer no
>> room...
>>
>>> Good in the proposal are, I tink:
>>> - the rounded look of the requested/received bars
>>> - the help-icons
>>> - the user-picture in my_logilogi
>>>
>>> Bad/problematic are, I think:
>>> - the search & requested/received bars are too short, should at least
>>>  span till my_logilogi
>>
>> Ok, I have to explain here a little bit. This layout was thought to
>> have more ajax functionalityes, and the search and tagging is one of
>> them. I whought of tags suggestions while typing and to add one tag at
>> a time, while you could add multiple, the search box is small :)
>>
>>> - the overall crammed look of it, too little space between (@ my size
>>>  monitor)
>>
>> Yes, I agree with you on this, and also the white background with the
>> soft-grey is not easy to read
>>
>>> - the panels are too close together & I think better when panels
>>
>> Certainly, it needs air... I'm not sure why I get obsesed with space
>> and shrink it all together...
>>
>>> - the little calendar and the by - author name look good, and are
>>>  missing here... (author name is there, but in a panel)
>>>
>> Yes, I also agree with you that they look good how they are now, but I
>> thought it would be more clear and usefull if it was all logi-related
>> information on the same place, but this is relative and we could try
>> to fit the most relevant information of the logi, on the logi
>> itself... Also about the calendar, I do like it, mostly when it's
>> applied to blog posts, but I don't think it's being of use in this
>> application, but this is probabbly becouse my perception of the
>> elements is disturbed by the use I do of LL, proabbly someone else
>> uses it and realizes that the date is over there and that is the date
>> when it was created/modified... I would go for a plain boring "last
>> modified: 11th June 2008"
>>
>>> Ambiguous are:
>>> - the toolbar is missing ?
>>
>> Yes, I'm thinking about this. The gray bar over the logi would be a
>> place to add the tool-bar... I'll think about this still.
>>
>>> - where are the tabs and network-bar ?
>>>
>>
>> Also missing right now.
>>
>>> Maybe more later, but this is it for now, as I got to get back to the
>>> presentations-preparations... Also I will try to fix your account now...
>>
>> Great, thanks for the critic and anybody elses opinion are also
>> welcome! hope to keep more ideas comming.
>>
>> Talk later!
>>
>>>
>>> Wybo
>>>
>>>> Later all.
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://logilogi.wiki.sourceforge.net/UI_V2.1
>>>> --
>>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bruno
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
>> It's the best place to buy or sell services for
>> just about anything Open Source.
>> http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php
>> _______________________________________________
>> LogiLogi-list mailing list
>> Log...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list
>>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
> It's the best place to buy or sell services for
> just about anything Open Source.
> http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php
> _______________________________________________
> LogiLogi-list mailing list
> Log...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list
>



-- 
Bruno

Hi Bruno,

As I already say at the irc channel, I liked the idea of moving the
info boxes to the top , I think that with a little javascript trick we
can enlarge the search area when necessary.
I also like in the second approach the idea of stress the logi with a
different color.
and the already mentioned by Wybo: rounded look of the
requested/received bars, help-icons and the user-picture


Miguel


On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Bruno <bs...@gm...> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:01 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I've spent some time today to get further in some ideas I had about
>>> the layout and design of logilogi...
>>>
>>> This is a work in progress so I start exposing at what I'm working now
>>> and ideas and critics are very well come.
>>
>> Ok, fasten your seatbelts :)
>
> :)
>
>>
>>> I've added a page [1] about it at the wiki with 2 png images. I'm
>>> willing to share the svg, it's 400kb and I'm not sure if to add it to
>>> the svn as another file or upgrade the current svg (which is the
>>> replica of the current layout)... I don't think it's good to add heavy
>>> files to the svn. I'll probably upload it to the wiki.
>>
>> I think it's fine if you add it to the svn. Under a different name
>> than the current, like ProposalA.svg, as probably when we come to the
>> UI we will be copying and pasting between them & make new versions,
>> etc...
>>
>> The size is not really an issue I think as most of us are on broadband
>> anyway, aren't we ?
>>
> Yes, so I'll upload it to the svn as UI_proposal_A_V2.1.svg
>
>> About your proposal: First of all, I don't think we will be able to
>> overhaul the UI just before the conferences anymore, as there still
>> enough to fix...
>>
> Ok, I didn't intend it for before the meeting, while I was motivated
> about it... :)
>
> Also, I wanted to remark about the current fixes and issues. We've
> alread gone throught the most nasty problemas of crossbrowser, mostly
> rounded corners that you solved greatly, so now, to go through a new
> interfase would not be so much work, and we will take in count from
> the beginning the current needs (new features, frontpage, etc), and
> others... This is also why I'm using the same elements and moving the
> arround, not becouse it's easier, but in order not to change so many
> things. In my current examples though, it could seem different because
> I removed the background boxes (and colours), but that was just
> testing...
>
>> Secondly, I really do like some aspects of the proposal you made, but
>> also dislike some parts of it. Also I have some questions.
>>
>> The questions:
>>
>> On what kind of monitor are you and Miguel (& others) ?
>> I am using a dual-monitor setup of 2 cheap-ass TFT's @ 1280x1024, with
>> irremovable color-differences even between them...
>>
> I work on my laptop which is an Acer Aspire 5050, only thing I know
> bout it is 14.1" "WXGA Acer CrystaBrite LCD
>
>> While the colors look faded on one, there is surely enough space to
>> see the Logi & panels on both of them (On my EEE-pc with 1024x600 on
>> the other hand all one sees are the top-bars & the title)
>
> I don't understand this point. What I intended to do was actually to
> design LL to even fit mobile phones (if it was html :). The sidebars
> would float left and go to the bottom of the logi if there werer no
> room...
>
>> Good in the proposal are, I tink:
>> - the rounded look of the requested/received bars
>> - the help-icons
>> - the user-picture in my_logilogi
>>
>> Bad/problematic are, I think:
>> - the search & requested/received bars are too short, should at least
>>  span till my_logilogi
>
> Ok, I have to explain here a little bit. This layout was thought to
> have more ajax functionalityes, and the search and tagging is one of
> them. I whought of tags suggestions while typing and to add one tag at
> a time, while you could add multiple, the search box is small :)
>
>> - the overall crammed look of it, too little space between (@ my size
>>  monitor)
>
> Yes, I agree with you on this, and also the white background with the
> soft-grey is not easy to read
>
>> - the panels are too close together & I think better when panels
>
> Certainly, it needs air... I'm not sure why I get obsesed with space
> and shrink it all together...
>
>> - the little calendar and the by - author name look good, and are
>>  missing here... (author name is there, but in a panel)
>>
> Yes, I also agree with you that they look good how they are now, but I
> thought it would be more clear and usefull if it was all logi-related
> information on the same place, but this is relative and we could try
> to fit the most relevant information of the logi, on the logi
> itself... Also about the calendar, I do like it, mostly when it's
> applied to blog posts, but I don't think it's being of use in this
> application, but this is probabbly becouse my perception of the
> elements is disturbed by the use I do of LL, proabbly someone else
> uses it and realizes that the date is over there and that is the date
> when it was created/modified... I would go for a plain boring "last
> modified: 11th June 2008"
>
>> Ambiguous are:
>> - the toolbar is missing ?
>
> Yes, I'm thinking about this. The gray bar over the logi would be a
> place to add the tool-bar... I'll think about this still.
>
>> - where are the tabs and network-bar ?
>>
>
> Also missing right now.
>
>> Maybe more later, but this is it for now, as I got to get back to the
>> presentations-preparations... Also I will try to fix your account now...
>
> Great, thanks for the critic and anybody elses opinion are also
> welcome! hope to keep more ideas comming.
>
> Talk later!
>
>>
>> Wybo
>>
>>> Later all.
>>>
>>> [1] http://logilogi.wiki.sourceforge.net/UI_V2.1
>>> --
>>> Bruno
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Bruno
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
> It's the best place to buy or sell services for
> just about anything Open Source.
> http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php
> _______________________________________________
> LogiLogi-list mailing list
> Log...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list
>

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:01 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've spent some time today to get further in some ideas I had about
>> the layout and design of logilogi...
>>
>> This is a work in progress so I start exposing at what I'm working now
>> and ideas and critics are very well come.
>
> Ok, fasten your seatbelts :)

:)

>
>> I've added a page [1] about it at the wiki with 2 png images. I'm
>> willing to share the svg, it's 400kb and I'm not sure if to add it to
>> the svn as another file or upgrade the current svg (which is the
>> replica of the current layout)... I don't think it's good to add heavy
>> files to the svn. I'll probably upload it to the wiki.
>
> I think it's fine if you add it to the svn. Under a different name
> than the current, like ProposalA.svg, as probably when we come to the
> UI we will be copying and pasting between them & make new versions,
> etc...
>
> The size is not really an issue I think as most of us are on broadband
> anyway, aren't we ?
>
Yes, so I'll upload it to the svn as UI_proposal_A_V2.1.svg

> About your proposal: First of all, I don't think we will be able to
> overhaul the UI just before the conferences anymore, as there still
> enough to fix...
>
Ok, I didn't intend it for before the meeting, while I was motivated
about it... :)

Also, I wanted to remark about the current fixes and issues. We've
alread gone throught the most nasty problemas of crossbrowser, mostly
rounded corners that you solved greatly, so now, to go through a new
interfase would not be so much work, and we will take in count from
the beginning the current needs (new features, frontpage, etc), and
others... This is also why I'm using the same elements and moving the
arround, not becouse it's easier, but in order not to change so many
things. In my current examples though, it could seem different because
I removed the background boxes (and colours), but that was just
testing...

> Secondly, I really do like some aspects of the proposal you made, but
> also dislike some parts of it. Also I have some questions.
>
> The questions:
>
> On what kind of monitor are you and Miguel (& others) ?
> I am using a dual-monitor setup of 2 cheap-ass TFT's @ 1280x1024, with
> irremovable color-differences even between them...
>
I work on my laptop which is an Acer Aspire 5050, only thing I know
bout it is 14.1" "WXGA Acer CrystaBrite LCD

> While the colors look faded on one, there is surely enough space to
> see the Logi & panels on both of them (On my EEE-pc with 1024x600 on
> the other hand all one sees are the top-bars & the title)

I don't understand this point. What I intended to do was actually to
design LL to even fit mobile phones (if it was html :). The sidebars
would float left and go to the bottom of the logi if there werer no
room...

> Good in the proposal are, I tink:
> - the rounded look of the requested/received bars
> - the help-icons
> - the user-picture in my_logilogi
>
> Bad/problematic are, I think:
> - the search & requested/received bars are too short, should at least
>  span till my_logilogi

Ok, I have to explain here a little bit. This layout was thought to
have more ajax functionalityes, and the search and tagging is one of
them. I whought of tags suggestions while typing and to add one tag at
a time, while you could add multiple, the search box is small :)

> - the overall crammed look of it, too little space between (@ my size
>  monitor)

Yes, I agree with you on this, and also the white background with the
soft-grey is not easy to read

> - the panels are too close together & I think better when panels

Certainly, it needs air... I'm not sure why I get obsesed with space
and shrink it all together...

> - the little calendar and the by - author name look good, and are
>  missing here... (author name is there, but in a panel)
>
Yes, I also agree with you that they look good how they are now, but I
thought it would be more clear and usefull if it was all logi-related
information on the same place, but this is relative and we could try
to fit the most relevant information of the logi, on the logi
itself... Also about the calendar, I do like it, mostly when it's
applied to blog posts, but I don't think it's being of use in this
application, but this is probabbly becouse my perception of the
elements is disturbed by the use I do of LL, proabbly someone else
uses it and realizes that the date is over there and that is the date
when it was created/modified... I would go for a plain boring "last
modified: 11th June 2008"

> Ambiguous are:
> - the toolbar is missing ?

Yes, I'm thinking about this. The gray bar over the logi would be a
place to add the tool-bar... I'll think about this still.

> - where are the tabs and network-bar ?
>

Also missing right now.

> Maybe more later, but this is it for now, as I got to get back to the
> presentations-preparations... Also I will try to fix your account now...

Great, thanks for the critic and anybody elses opinion are also
welcome! hope to keep more ideas comming.

Talk later!

>
> Wybo
>
>> Later all.
>>
>> [1] http://logilogi.wiki.sourceforge.net/UI_V2.1
>> --
>> Bruno
>
>



-- 
Bruno

> > I just added a preliminary implementation of LogiRemarks. They are
> > what shouts are on some blogging-sites, but with an a bit more
> > civilized name...
>
> So great!!
> 
> It's really nice how things are evolving, LL has so much potential,
> and when this "obvious"/"nifty" parts appears it starts to show off
> all the background work done till now... In other words, the concepts
> behind LL are very solid and that's what let us build consistent over
> them.

:) What we are doing now with the remarks, is like also allowing
lesser forms of these concepts, for where they are too much of the
good, and for new users, who know the old, and don't expect the new...

Already useful while simple, is the sentence that springs to mind on
this...

> Question: Are shout outs logis? like "comment logis" but "mark logis"?
> We've been through this before. I most of the time see "logi" as the
> logilogi unit for writing. Then there would be different types like
> "concept", "question", "comment", "citation", etc...  Just to keep
> thinking about this...

Remarks are not logi's, they are - well remarks. Usefull for when one
has something to say that it so closely tied to a logi that it does
not make sense to give it tags and all...

So the types are either to be added to remarks also, or to be sized
down... Actually I think we will only start to need these types when
there are so many remarks/derived works (these ARE logi's) as to make
it confusing without them...

> > Simmilarily it would be good to have below all comments/derived works
> > a text-field for adding links to logi's that will then be added as
> > derived-works (this adds a comment-link without position-ranges).
>
> that's very useful... I'm starting to love this quick shoutout-style
> participation.

Good that you like them :)

What do others think ?

> Great improvements!!
> 
> I'm willing to work over manta, maybe more over the weekend, I'll be arround.

Cool, as there's still a small bunch of IE-issues that would be great
to be fixed before the conferences begin...

Wybo

> Later all.
> 
> Later.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bruno

> Hi all,
> 
> I've spent some time today to get further in some ideas I had about
> the layout and design of logilogi...
> 
> This is a work in progress so I start exposing at what I'm working now
> and ideas and critics are very well come.

Ok, fasten your seatbelts :)

> I've added a page [1] about it at the wiki with 2 png images. I'm
> willing to share the svg, it's 400kb and I'm not sure if to add it to
> the svn as another file or upgrade the current svg (which is the
> replica of the current layout)... I don't think it's good to add heavy
> files to the svn. I'll probably upload it to the wiki.

I think it's fine if you add it to the svn. Under a different name
than the current, like ProposalA.svg, as probably when we come to the
UI we will be copying and pasting between them & make new versions,
etc...

The size is not really an issue I think as most of us are on broadband
anyway, aren't we ?

About your proposal: First of all, I don't think we will be able to
overhaul the UI just before the conferences anymore, as there still
enough to fix...

Secondly, I really do like some aspects of the proposal you made, but
also dislike some parts of it. Also I have some questions.

The questions:

On what kind of monitor are you and Miguel (& others) ?
I am using a dual-monitor setup of 2 cheap-ass TFT's @ 1280x1024, with
irremovable color-differences even between them...

While the colors look faded on one, there is surely enough space to
see the Logi & panels on both of them (On my EEE-pc with 1024x600 on
the other hand all one sees are the top-bars & the title)

Good in the proposal are, I tink:
- the rounded look of the requested/received bars
- the help-icons
- the user-picture in my_logilogi

Bad/problematic are, I think:
- the search & requested/received bars are too short, should at least
  span till my_logilogi
- the overall crammed look of it, too little space between (@ my size
  monitor)
- the panels are too close together & I think better when panels
- the little calendar and the by - author name look good, and are
  missing here... (author name is there, but in a panel)

Ambiguous are:
- the toolbar is missing ?
- where are the tabs and network-bar ?

Maybe more later, but this is it for now, as I got to get back to the
presentations-preparations... Also I will try to fix your account now...

Wybo

> Later all.
> 
> [1] http://logilogi.wiki.sourceforge.net/UI_V2.1
> -- 
> Bruno

Hi all,

I've spent some time today to get further in some ideas I had about
the layout and design of logilogi...

This is a work in progress so I start exposing at what I'm working now
and ideas and critics are very well come.

I've added a page [1] about it at the wiki with 2 png images. I'm
willing to share the svg, it's 400kb and I'm not sure if to add it to
the svn as another file or upgrade the current svg (which is the
replica of the current layout)... I don't think it's good to add heavy
files to the svn. I'll probably upload it to the wiki.

Later all.

[1] http://logilogi.wiki.sourceforge.net/UI_V2.1
-- 
Bruno

Hi all,

On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> I just added a preliminary implementation of LogiRemarks. They are
> what shouts are on some blogging-sites, but with an a bit more
> civilized name...
>
So great!!

It's really nice how things are evolving, LL has so much potential,
and when this "obvious"/"nifty" parts appears it starts to show off
all the background work done till now... In other words, the concepts
behind LL are very solid and that's what let us build consistent over
them.

Question: Are shout outs logis? like "comment logis" but "mark logis"?
We've been through this before. I most of the time see "logi" as the
logilogi unit for writing. Then there would be different types like
"concept", "question", "comment", "citation", etc...  Just to keep
thinking about this...

>
> Simmilarily it would be good to have below all comments/derived works
> a text-field for adding links to logi's that will then be added as
> derived-works (this adds a comment-link without position-ranges).
>
that's very useful... I'm starting to love this quick shoutout-style
participation.

Great improvements!!

I'm willing to work over manta, maybe more over the weekend, I'll be arround.

Later all.

Later.


-- 
Bruno

We had a good day of development today in Nijmegen, and a good dinner
& drink afterwards... It was really nice to get to know you pplz also
a bit more personally :)

I've added a task for the small promo-film(s) + some more info:

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1989705&group_id=78643&atid=898717

Miguel, I checked your bugfix out, and it works :) While there might
be some glithches left in the diff, I tink it works good for now & you
can take on other tasks, like the remarks if you'd like that.

I've added quite a bit to the presentations today, though in line-
numbers it probably went down, as I added a tiny pre-processor to
make the my latex-presentations a bit DRY-er/less verbose (all the 
\begin{itemize}-stuff was replaced by textile style lists)...

greetings,

Wybo

I just added a preliminary implementation of LogiRemarks. They are
what shouts are on some blogging-sites, but with an a bit more
civilized name...

In the final implementation LogiRemarks should also be able of having
position-ranges. Just like comment-links.

Then it would be good to have the '+comment' also as a drop-down-menu,
with therein derived-works and logi-remarks. The logi-remarks should
be addable in a simmilar vein to the comment-links.

In addition to this we would also have the text-area to the side for
adding remarks, so remarks can be specific to words/phrases, like when
being remarks about spelling or phrasing, and related to a whole logi,
when about the whole logi or more general aspects of it.

Simmilarily it would be good to have below all comments/derived works
a text-field for adding links to logi's that will then be added as
derived-works (this adds a comment-link without position-ranges).

This way people, while using LogiLogi can decide for themselves which
level of complexity to use...

As the main problem of debate-wiki.org to me seems to me to 
be (apart from it being not Manta, etc :) over-complexity for such a 
simple thing as adding a short remark/comment...

If you want miguel, you can take this on, as it is an interesting,
challenging, but not impossible thing to do...

Also the remarks with position-ranges should show up inside the clouds
when mousing-over the position-range they apply to... (when they have
a position-range of course)...

Also when an user then clicks on +comment, he will see a help-popover-
box, with a line explaining what derived works and remarks are and how
they differ... In the 2 different overboxes of derived works and
remarks the more thourough explanation will then be given.

Wybo

PS: See many of you tomorrow in Nijmegen, but don't expect me to be
very talkative as one of my wisdom-tooth (verstandskiezen) was pulled
out this afternoon at the hospital, and it's still quite painfull...
(I do think I will be able to eat again tomorrow however, so yes, I
will definitely be at the teambuilding-dinner :)

Feng wrote:
> Wybo Wiersma wrote:
>   
>> I just fixed these bugs:
>>
>> 1981550, Error when deleting an account and then creating it again
>> 1958344, Bodies, like my_logilogi are rendered for pop-overs...
>> 1982114, When changing a title and then removing a link errs
>>
>> Bug 1982114 was more on accident that I saw the solution immediately
>> than because I was hunting for it... So miguel, you might want to pick
>> another bug...
>>
>> I also restored the account of Rens van Summeren and made sure
>> duplicate account-creation is not possible anymore.
>>
>> greetings,
>>
>> Wybo
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
>> It's the best place to buy or sell services for
>> just about anything Open Source.
>> http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php
>> _______________________________________________
>> LogiLogi-list mailing list
>> Log...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list
>>
>>   
>>     
> I've updated my logilogi to version 929. But the LL seems to be broken.
> rake db:dev:redo complains about the uninitialized
> INSTALLED_FERRET. And script/server complains about the
>
> /usr/lib/ruby/1.8/rubygems/version.rb:237:in `initialize': undefined 
> method `collect' for nil:NilClass (NoMethodError)
>
> I don't if there is just me or the same to everyone, since there is no 
> other emails mentioned about this lately.
>
> regards
>
> Feng
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
> It's the best place to buy or sell services for
> just about anything Open Source.
> http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php
> _______________________________________________
> LogiLogi-list mailing list
> Log...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list
>
>   
Hi wybo,

After I apply "sudo gem update", the errors I mentioned above are still 
there. I've also tried the following commands
 sudo gem install -v=2.1.0
 sudo gem install ferret rails
 and the gem lists of my laptop is as follows:

*** LOCAL GEMS ***

actionmailer (2.1.0)
    Service layer for easy email delivery and testing.

actionpack (2.1.0)
    Web-flow and rendering framework putting the VC in MVC.

activerecord (2.1.0)
    Implements the ActiveRecord pattern for ORM.

activeresource (2.1.0)
    Think Active Record for web resources.

activesupport (2.1.0)
    Support and utility classes used by the Rails framework.

daemons (1.0.10)
    A toolkit to create and control daemons in different ways

ferret (0.11.6)
    Ruby indexing library.

rails (2.1.0)
    Web-application framework with template engine, control-flow layer,
    and ORM.

rake (0.8.1)
    Ruby based make-like utility.

ruby-openid (2.0.4)
    A library for consuming and serving OpenID identities.

ruby-yadis (0.3.4)
    A library for performing Yadis service discovery

rubyzip (0.9.1)
    rubyzip is a ruby module for reading and writing zip files

sources (0.0.1)
    This package provides download sources for remote gem installation

tzinfo (0.3.9)
    Daylight-savings aware timezone library

Feng

> Roel and I fixed this by upgrading everything
> running (from the top of my head) :
> sudo gem upgrade --system; sudo gem install rails ferret (and a lot of other
> stuff)

'sudo gem update' should update all gems.

And then it should work.

Wybo

Roel and I fixed this by upgrading everything
running (from the top of my head) :
sudo gem upgrade --system; sudo gem install rails ferret (and a lot of other
stuff)

Roel probably has the exact commands in his bash history

On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Feng <fe...@st...> wrote:

> Wybo Wiersma wrote:
> > I just fixed these bugs:
> >
> > 1981550, Error when deleting an account and then creating it again
> > 1958344, Bodies, like my_logilogi are rendered for pop-overs...
> > 1982114, When changing a title and then removing a link errs
> >
> > Bug 1982114 was more on accident that I saw the solution immediately
> > than because I was hunting for it... So miguel, you might want to pick
> > another bug...
> >
> > I also restored the account of Rens van Summeren and made sure
> > duplicate account-creation is not possible anymore.
> >
> > greetings,
> >
> > Wybo
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
> > It's the best place to buy or sell services for
> > just about anything Open Source.
> > http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php
> > _______________________________________________
> > LogiLogi-list mailing list
> > Log...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list
> >
> >
> I've updated my logilogi to version 929. But the LL seems to be broken.
> rake db:dev:redo complains about the uninitialized
> INSTALLED_FERRET. And script/server complains about the
>
> /usr/lib/ruby/1.8/rubygems/version.rb:237:in `initialize': undefined
> method `collect' for nil:NilClass (NoMethodError)
>
> I don't if there is just me or the same to everyone, since there is no
> other emails mentioned about this lately.
>
> regards
>
> Feng
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
> It's the best place to buy or sell services for
> just about anything Open Source.
> http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php
> _______________________________________________
> LogiLogi-list mailing list
> Log...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list
>

Wybo Wiersma wrote:
> I just fixed these bugs:
>
> 1981550, Error when deleting an account and then creating it again
> 1958344, Bodies, like my_logilogi are rendered for pop-overs...
> 1982114, When changing a title and then removing a link errs
>
> Bug 1982114 was more on accident that I saw the solution immediately
> than because I was hunting for it... So miguel, you might want to pick
> another bug...
>
> I also restored the account of Rens van Summeren and made sure
> duplicate account-creation is not possible anymore.
>
> greetings,
>
> Wybo
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
> It's the best place to buy or sell services for
> just about anything Open Source.
> http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php
> _______________________________________________
> LogiLogi-list mailing list
> Log...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list
>
>   
I've updated my logilogi to version 929. But the LL seems to be broken.
rake db:dev:redo complains about the uninitialized
INSTALLED_FERRET. And script/server complains about the

/usr/lib/ruby/1.8/rubygems/version.rb:237:in `initialize': undefined 
method `collect' for nil:NilClass (NoMethodError)

I don't if there is just me or the same to everyone, since there is no 
other emails mentioned about this lately.

regards

Feng

I just fixed these bugs:

1981550, Error when deleting an account and then creating it again
1958344, Bodies, like my_logilogi are rendered for pop-overs...
1982114, When changing a title and then removing a link errs

Bug 1982114 was more on accident that I saw the solution immediately
than because I was hunting for it... So miguel, you might want to pick
another bug...

I also restored the account of Rens van Summeren and made sure
duplicate account-creation is not possible anymore.

greetings,

Wybo

If all is ok, the rake db:dev:redo problems are fixed since last
wednesday evening, and even those who do new installs or who update
with rake dev:update should be all set.

I will be doing more work on the presentations today and I will be
fixing a few small bugs.

I also mail, to pass you the link to www.wiki-debate.org. It has been
created by the people behind the E-Cap conference, the first
conference where I will be presenting Manta in just a week.

It has quite a lot of issues (a bit buggy & being apparently closed
source, for one, and not allowing accounts for non-presenters for
one), but is interesting to look at and learn from nevertheless...

Especially the short comments / shouts could be fashioned in some way
like their comments...

Wybo

> LogiLogi Manta is Rails 2.1.0 ready! :)
> 
> Update all your gems with sudo gem update
> 
> Then update Manta with svn update
> 
> And you should be back on track ;)
> 
> (Rails became a bit faster with 2.1.0 too...)
> 
> Wybo

LogiLogi Manta is Rails 2.1.0 ready! :)

Update all your gems with sudo gem update

Then update Manta with svn update

And you should be back on track ;)

(Rails became a bit faster with 2.1.0 too...)

Wybo

PS: Miguel (you probably seen it too, but just in case you did not)
there still is some issue with the diff. It shows in IE now, but even
in Firefox extra p tags are added to the diff of the local main-page
(http://en.logi-manta.org:3000/), causing it to show newlines there...

PPS: It was a nice day of devving in Nijmegen, although the new Rails
release cost us some time... Hope to see some more progress later this
week.

Last week quite some refactoring was done, the routes problem was
fixed, and two use-cases were closed.

Also I made a beginning with the presentations in latex beamer format
yesterday, and with that I ran into a bug in tex2pdf with includes
before the begin-document tag (cost quite some time to find out what
the problem was and whether it was possible to fix it within
reasonable time, but it wasn't), so I had to create a small workaround
in the form of a rake task...

Anyway, we will be fixing more bugs, and possibly even adding some
more functionality today & this week...

See many of you in Nijmegen today,

Wybo

I just committed the fix for the routes-bug. I solved it by
refactoring things to make Manta more Rails-RESTfull. And by adding
missing_method methods to controller.rb and application_helper.rb that
will automatically add the needed functions for new routes when they
are called for the first time...

Note that for this to continue working any new functionality that
belongs to a logi should be put in it's own controller, and only the 
basic CRUD-operations should be used (index, show, new, edit, create,
update & destroy). With this we follow David Heinemeier Hansson and
his World of Resources keynote talk of 2006, closely:
http://downloads.scribemedia.net/rails2006/01_dh_hansson.m4v

I will be getting down to more critical bugs now, but this just needed
to get done...

Wybo Wiersma

PS: Due to a switch between ISP's I will have no internet anymore in
Groningen until the 5th of june. It will therefore be hard for me to
get to my e-mail, as I got it all set up in such a way that my main 
PC & the one that fetches my e-mail sits there... I will however keep
up with the list via my yahoo-email address, but other mails I could
miss till after the 5th...

> > & browsers & standards... arrgg... :)
> 
> All, as I've proposed before, we should abandom rounded corners on
> browsers that this would make them not able to even use LL... for
> safari we could also use an alternative rounding method, (I think it
> supports radious styles). What I mean, is that we could at least
> desable rounded corners for safari which would be better than what it
> displays today...

Good idea, besides my other commits of today, I added this now. Opera
and Safari don't have rounded corners anymore. Also there is a notice
now telling that the site needs javascript, when visitors have 
javascript disabled...

My commit was largely a refactoring of controller-functionality. I
slimmed down the logis_controller and moved bits off into
logi_settings_controller.rb, logi_versions_controller.rb and
comments_controller.rb.

Also I added cancel-buttons to the overboxes, and I cleaned them up.

I refactored the logi-settings, and closed the userstory. I also
closed the peer-group deletion user-story & will refactor it a bit
soon...

Besides all this I also made a start with simplifying the routes. I
will finish that tomorrow.

---

About the diff, miguel, there is a problem in the applyVersionTags
function that causes IE7 never to load the diff. I was unable to spot
the problem quickly, maybe you know what is wrong ?

greetings,

Wybo

PS: All these changes are in the trunk & ad edge.logilogi.org at the 
moment, I did not yet update the production-version yet because there
are too many open issues still.

> -- 
> Bruno