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Apologies for the late reply.

In the first place, I don’t think romantic love was something that was common as a part of human society until recently, only in legends, perhaps. Only recently, it seems the Church had a role in promoting romantic love with monogamous marriage, as you said. Yes there’s the verse of what god yokes together, don’t break, but that’s not necessarily indicative of romance, but you have a point as that Christian idea is the foundation for what we enjoy today.

I’m also puzzled over romantic love and family structure. As you said, it’s at least good for children to have two parents that stay with them (on a tangent but extended families and close friends are better but many societies are too individualist to the burden falls on two people) but they can separate for something superfluous as “romantic love.” Well I’m sure you don’t have to sleep in the same bed as your partner to be a good parent, but then again, one of them can easily pick a “new” mom/dad to live with them which can complicate things.

A missed opportunity to give up on a good relationship with someone else, huh. I can’t relate because I’ve reached the point where I don’t think I would be able to fall in love again, so if I do there’s no way I’d have anyone else. But I’m a very special and particularly cultivated case, I’m sure most others aren’t like that; even so, I’d imagine a big reason for most monogamists (serial or otherwise) to not pursue polygamy/polyamory is just the practicality in sharing others’ bodies. That’s more people to spread disease with. Even if there’s an agreement where the 3 or more people can only have sec with each other, there’s more chance of cheating with more people involved, so more chance of getting a disease. I wouldn’t have sex with someone who is having sex with other people. I guess this is why I love romance stories where the two share a particularly strong bond beyond romance; there’s less reason to cultivate that with someone else, or more like, it’s not even possible. Unfortunately real life is boring and you can’t build a society around super contrived chance meanings that contribute to some sort of theme.

I really wouldn’t be able to tell you much about the two types of escapism because it seems to me the very lore of the series treats that as the same thing and I can’t really argue against it. Isn’t that how Shinji was able to end the world?What I’m saying is, it seems that your outward actions are a reflection of the inside.

For berserk, I just said that because I read the manga. Griffith lives in his mind rent free. He evokes the stronger emotional reaction out of him. And I read a scene analysis where it seems that Guts only got so attached to Casca because of how she reached her breaking point mirrored Griffith and it evoked sympathy in Guts. And her becoming a vegetable when women IRL have always been raped and betrayed by men they thought they could trust and idolize didn’t help either.

Bonded to a person for the rest of your life, huh. I guess in the end I can't really make up my mind on romantic relationships because I'm still not sure on what the ideal family structure is and the way developed societies are designed today is so unprecedented. We only think you should be super specially bonded to a romantic partner etc. because people have to move for work and don't live with their families or makes living arrangements to be near friends, so the socially acceptable person to plan your life around is a romantic partner. But that's not really sustainable isn't it? That's exactly why I love (non misogynist) historical settings so much.

I guess you could argue that 14 year olds shouldn't be doing it in some abstract sense but the fact is they're the only ones who can, so they should. A 14 year old also shouldn't have the power to turn humanity into a collective mush but that's what EoE was. Oh and by the way that's where the Asuka quote came from, when they were in the collective mush.

Male homoeroticism (not necessarily of the sexual kind) is everywhere. Ancient works like the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Book of Samuel, 80's manga like Devilman and Berserk, popular battle shounen like Naruto... not to mention pederasty in every culture and how a relationship between a young boy and an older man was considered ideal, especially in Ancient Greek lines of thought, Oscar Wilde even wrote about this.

Yeah I guess you can argue that female characters being tied to male characters is misogynistic, but I'm still in the process of deciding that for myself. I guess in a vacuum it's not a bad thing, but it certainly is annoying, which is why I don't like Shinji and Kaworu thing, Shinji is very influenced by that guy but I guess like you said, you can argue that Asuka's role in EoE subverts that. I think writing female characters badly when male characters are good is always bad though.

Exactly, a strong platonic bond makes a romance deep. But not all romances are especially deep. Like maybe you meet someone good in an arranged marriage and you’re simply content with them, don’t want to cheat or want them to be unfaithful. Or dating apps, they don’t sound especially romantic.


My feelings on Eva are kind of complicated. The issue of him having to pilot the robot wasn’t very important to me because it was clear it was something only those who are that age could do in a post apocalyptic world. I had an issue with the side characters as you said, they were unhealthy, yes, but as Asuka pointed out, Shinji never tried to love anyone, he only wanted to take, which is why she didn’t want him. I was also bothered how he was so instantly attached to Kaworu who instantly loved him and it also fed into this message I get a lot that “relationships between men are the ultimate ideal, women are xyz” soemthing you see too much historically. Maybe Asuka’s point fights against this, but maybe the merchandising muddles my feelings.

I don’t know what to think. lol

Just because romantic love is the most shallow doesn't mean it can't coexist with a strong platonic bond. You can see someone as a mate and connect with them deeply as a person. I just think that too many people and works don't know the difference.

I think it's sad that it's not socially acceptable for men to be openly affectionate with each other.

I could have sworn I wrote a review on Monster but I must have deleted it for some reason lol. But from what I remember of the anime... it just takes too long to get anywhere. I think i dropped it at the library scene. The side characters dragged everything out. Nobody really learns anything? I don't remember well.

Good point about the "female figures relied on magic and not their own achievements :)" part, I never thought about that. I also just can't over that apparently men aren't capable of deep emotion, it's like the writers are unintentionally telling on themselves.

I thought Madoka's wish made no sense because she wished to do so WITH HER OWN HANDS, something that causes the problems on the sequel. So she could have wished for a law of the universe without *her* having to become it. Is she egocentric or what?

I called the misery "meaningless" for reasons like the specifically worded wish and Sayaka's ideology and her reaction to the soul gem.

I haven't heard of "Before Sunrise," I'll check it out, but my main gripe with romance media everywhere (and general fandom) is that it considers romantic love as the ultimate form of love, when in reality it is the most shallow because it needs physical attraction.

Yeah I think the reasoning behind the trans issues just ends up reinforcing stereotypes. Especially since those stereotypes are so culturally dependent, not to mention time period. With Madoka, what message is it sending, that only girls are the ones who experience the strongest emotions? (and that wasn't even historically true, that's why being artists, writers, poets, philosophers was "men's work")

Before I address points, I would be curious to know: What is your general reception to moral greyness, or “amorality” in media? Are there any anti-heroes or unvirtuous protagonists that you have found compelling? I get an impression but I won’t do you the discourtesy of putting words in your mouth. I will say that it takes a deft hand, but it isn’t at all a barrier to resonating with a story for me. For example, a movie like Nightcrawler certainly doesn’t make me feel comfortable, but it’s still fascinating, and I like the character without actually “liking” them. In another vein, both Walter White and Jesse Pinkman of Breaking Bad are incredibly compelling in their own ways, and I genuinely do like Jesse. Exploring the stains reality leaves on the soul is something I seek out. In fiction, I’m not concerned with a total triumph of good over evil, and it doesn’t bother me if not everything is made right in the end. In one sense of course, it does, or else how could I appreciate it at all? But settling the disquiet it instills is half the experience. What of it for you?

To the points:
>The other characters don't really fail because they fail to grapple with their negative emotions or appreciate something in full.

This is absolutely the case, though. Overwhelmingly so, the entire course of events is precipitated by collective and personal failures to overcome the self.
>people don’t need to be told that being unable to deal with negative emotions is bad

Every character and every group is a portrait of self-deceit and self-denial. Hiding in escapism like the Racan and Shinji, surrendering autonomy to a greater ideal like the Union or Gabe, succumbing to the pursuit of earthly gain like the Organo, or attaining it like the Class and rotting in opulent complacency, and more… how often in life do people fall into snares like these? I don’t think it doesn’t bear mentioning, these aren’t moot or trivial pitfalls we just sidestep with ease.

Maybe a specific example will help illustrate: the way in which Kimata, Onishii, and Ichise respond to their texhnolyze. Kimata outright rejects it, forming a strong ressentiment that subsumes him. Obviously, had he been able to accept his texhnolyzation, there would be no Union and one less faction that could be provoked to war. Onishii, on the other hand, seems to not just accept, but treasure his texhnolyze. However, it becomes clear that this is an overcompensation, a form of coping. That acceptance is entirely predicated on him perceiving an even more valuable gain. In his wistful reminiscence to Ichise, we see that his mindset has placed his legs on a scale. As a price paid for naivete, and also as a fee for admission to a higher calling: the ear to the vox populi. Similar to Ichise, Onishii sought guidance too. He was a man who admired the idea of wise thought and wise action from a respected authority: Gotoh as the tangible mentor figure whom he could emulate, but a desire, too, for something even deeper. His belief that the very city itself is talking to him and guiding him is what defines him. Everything he does is in deference to the voice of the city coming through the obelisk into his brain via the texhnolyze. He ascribes all importance and meaning to this, but in the end it’s a facade. His texhnolyze did not connect him to the heart of the people, his actions were not wisdom guided by an emergent lifeforce greater than any individual. Rather than accept his texhnolyze, or rather the circumstance surrounding it, it was weighed on scales and the only way for him to balance it was by creating a pretense, a pretense that he, much like Gabe, cedes over autonomy to. The veil is fully over his eyes and he misses the war being fomented around him. He cannot be the unifying leader with popular mandate that he needs to be to make peace in the city, and peace with himself. And his end is fitting to this: despondent, realizing his treasured appointment was a self-deception, all he can do is continue on under the command of the new voice telling him what to do. When Ran tells him to put Hirota out of her misery, he gives pause to meekly question it but complies all the same, and again at the obelisk, when told, he does as commanded, ironically still obeying the object of his self-deception. All to be gunned down by a mob of the people that he’d thought himself ordained by, not a trace of him left except his blood on the obelisk, and the legs that weren’t his.
It is only Ichise that unconditionally accepts his texhnolyze. They aren’t what define him, as he reflects, they aren’t what changed him. They aren’t scars, they aren’t remittance, they simply are. Now, unlike Kimata or Onishii, they aren’t foundational to defining a meaning in life, they only facilitate pursuing the independent meaning he has found.

In regard to morality, I guess I’m poorly articulating what I’m meaning, and in trying to putt it along with little taps I just overshot it anyway. One minor needling is that there is no “criminal” element here: the Organo are the de facto law, only when the Class deign to come down from on high is there someone to bend the knee to. That doesn’t make them any less brutal, and the mafia influence is blatant and intentional, but they aren’t criminal, strictly speaking. This alone isn’t an important correction to point out, but in conference with my greater point, I feel bears mentioning. I don’t think legality is synonymous with morality, either, but what I’m stressing is that the cast inhabit a world with a far different social ecology inhospitable to traditional morality. Applying rigorous preconceived moral standards to such a setting is a surefire path to dissatisfaction. Think about what would inform the morality of the people in such a world. For Ichise, who is paid to cave skulls in, when a group like Organo is the law, retribution is a given (etched into his mind at a young age seeing his father lynched in broad daylight), factional skirmishes waged for the pettiest of reason or even no reason. I don’t think there’s sufficient reason for Ichise to be overwhelmed by regret. After seeing how upset Ran is by violence, he does start to develop a broader sense of right and wrong. He does feel guilt and he does in fact have regrets, it pains him to think that he might just keep doing the same thing no matter what. He didn’t at all care before the events of the show, and a morality as we casually mean it is instilled in him over the series. But regrets, tragedy, suffering, none of that mattered more than the meaning he found to life, his life, the life he lived, however it needs to be phrased. I can’t say morality is outside the purview of Texhnolyze because there is indeed a great deal of moralization going on here, but it’s not the ethical right and wrong in the sense that it feels like you mean it in. It’s not like the show endorses joining the mafia, it portrays it as the vicious, treacherous corrosive element of society that it is. Nor does it extol violence: though it certainly uses it to effect as both entertainment and storytelling, it isn’t saying we should be going out solving our problems with our fists, swords, guns, etc., and in the narrative it is saying exactly the opposite, that such a thing is only a hastening of a possible end. Now if you want to have a conversation about if by portraying violence as “cool action” at all being glorification of violence, that’s a conversation that extends to all media and anything with action is guilty of the same crime, but I think any reasonable person understands there is a clear divide between something like this or A Clockwork Orange and going out to watch an actual organized bum fight or something, least of all getting in on it yourself and assaulting people you have qualm with. But back to Texhnolyze, Ichise’s not a paragon of virtue, nor is he intended to be. But we can evaluate a character on more than just a moral basis, and I find that there is still rich characterization, significant development, and appreciable change in Ichise, and in him a positive takeaway from the show. Giving you a moral exemplar to look at is not his role. What I believe you are to look at Ichise as is a beacon for optimism, that for even the emptiest person, there can be found something meaningful even in a bleak world full of suffering, something that makes having lived worth it.

Ran’s importance to Ichise is far more than just someone he interacted with a handful of times. It’s in the depth of those meetings that all meaning is found. When he is caught and thrown into the sewers, he is at his lowest point. Starving, disoriented, lost in every sense of the word, scorned, lowered to less than even a rat, suffering for absolutely nothing, having lived a life truly devoid of meaning and forced to face its ugly end, the radiant white flowers guiding him out blaze away all of that darkness. A thousand conversations couldn’t possibly mean more to him than this.

Doc puts her cells in Ichise’s arm when she performs maintenance on him on the train to the surface. When he returns to Lux, we are shown that her computer activates and now serves as the makeshift obelisk for Ichise’s limbs to continue to function. It’s at this moment his feelings culminate in the full embrace of his texhnolyze: by forgiving Doc and accepting her sincerity, he topples one of the pillars of his enmity.

The articulation of the value judgment to the Theonormal is the importance: Ichise was hitherto hardly if at all capable of rendering his feelings into words, let alone seeing a point in putting them into the world, directed to other people with intent behind the words. A pithy condemnation. Individually, it’s a small thing, but collectively, it’s just yet another sign of his blossoming will, or “ego.” It’s something the old Ichise could never do.

The people of the surface world do engage in leisurely activities: we see them out for strolls, spins, bites at the cafe, they haunt the movie theater, they pantomime gardening, and they make superficial chitchat. But there’s a difference, and one that you recognize, between idle diversion and passionate pursuit of hobbies and meaningful relationships, which are nonexistant on the surface.

I want to make it clear that I don’t disagree that ethical behavior is good, and that morality as in a sense of right and wrong is an imperative intrinsic value for individuals to have in a functional society or for a healthy mind and soul. However, self-actualization is about defining that for oneself, not merely obliging external sources of morals. The idea that one who is self-actualized should or shouldn’t do this or that or has to have x or y values is completely antithetical to the very concept.

I'm afraid you might find my answer disappointing, but there's not a prescription for how to fulfill our spiritual needs. I'd like to compare it to "The Inferno" (to which it makes open reference) in that it's an allegorical walk through hell, as criticism for the ills of humanity, but there is no Purgatorio or Paradiso, though as I've contended, it's not like I think Texhnolyze doesn't broach the matter. I believe either Ichise, Yoshii, or some combination of parts of their characters serve to give a vague framework of what living meaningfully might look like to the author (and giving all fairness, I would call anyone who claims to have a fully envisioned model for proper life a damned fool.) Parts of those characters lives are clearly not admirable, and more broadly, none of their actions, none of their living, meaningful or otherwise, prevented the deterioration of Lux or the sunset over humanity (though there's the tiniest sliver of possibility to reverse this, as Sakimura is still alive and changed by the course of events, though whether its even possible for him to overcome his despair at this point is impossible to say.) All speculation aside, the trajectory at the end of Texhnolyze is grim, and all the individual actualization was insufficient in averting mankind’s doom, and perhaps it was already past the point of no return long before the events of the show. A wonderfully dismal matter to ponder! I would certainly like to see the same minds and hands that made Texhnolyze come together and continue developing the ideas and more in a successor series, but even the Lain follow-up is still in limbo so I won't be holding my breath for any Texhnolyze Divine Comedy. Unfortunately for someone who demands answers, this is mostly proscription with a splash of prescription. What there is in ways of positive, actionable takeaway is to seek out and seize every opportunity to confront yourself and overcome it. There’s a lot of what not to do, but when the time comes to grapple with negative emotions, don’t shy away, but struggle with it and appreciate the struggle when you look down on it. And it doesn’t concern only negative emotions. When you care for something, appreciate it in full.

With specific regard to Ichise, I think it would be helpful to recalibrate your moral compass. You don’t need to abandon it altogether; after all, I still condemn Yoshii, but in analyzing him and his purpose in the themes of Texhnolyze, I still greatly appreciate him/his presence. Trying to impose a morality of good and evil will only end in disappointment. There’s no wholesale good guy, the scope of the work isn’t about justice and injustice, and in fact, this is one of the criticisms levied by Texhnolyze, the conceptualization of black and white morality: the evil element, the notion of monsters and men, or monsters in men, was what cleaved humanity into the in-group that stayed on the surface and became Theonormal, and the outgroup that was driven underground. The surface world represents more than just physical evolution: it’s a civilization purged of “evil.” Yet even extricated of the treachery of the human heart, the spirit is not saved from death. There is something lost by extinguishing a part of our soul. This isn’t to say embrace it either, as we see what happens when you do: Lux in the climax is the deepest part of hell. There is a higher road, much narrower, raised just above these two perilous paths, where morality is set to the side and the axis becomes one of self-actualization, or self-transcendence. I’ll sum up my thoughts on Yoshii as saying he was misguided, in the most euphemistic terms, but as for Ichise, the path he’s on and the one we are to “look toward” is one where that loftier, hazier goal is found. I will be the first to admit that Ichise’s actualization was never reached: his ability to do so was cut short long before he could ever live a fully realized life of purpose. But my bold and printed interpretation of what Ichise’s character is meant to be is that he was set on the path of actualization, he was genuinely in the process, contrary to every other character in the series (except for potentially Yoshii, who I would contend had fallen from it, and to an even more arguable extent, Ran, but I’m getting sidetracked.) Whether his actions were (morally) good things or bad things isn’t the matter. The question we should be asking is whether the trend of his actions and reactions were approaching self-transcendence. If we do, we can still ask “Should Ichise have reason to smile at the end?” And I would find that absolutely, he should.

To your points: I would contend that joining Organo was not a negative thing, as it facilitated this process. He developed meaningful relationships with at the very least Toyama through this, a kindred spirit that directly touched his soul. Despite his reliance on Onishii for guidance, and Onishii's guidance not being directly beneficial to him, Onishii sent him to the right places to find opportunities to grow. The episode title when he joins, Vagrant, is an excellent title for this part. Consider the alternative: Ichise goes back to wandering the streets, maybe fighting again, but assuredly drifting aimlessly. By joining the Organo, he at least sets himself on a path toward something higher.

He cares about more than just Ran, too. He values Onishii, Toyama, Doc, and even extends his hand to one of the Theonormal. Even though he's not exactly a ball of sunshine now, his experiences have given him things to care about and reasons to care. Even though to us it seems trivially simplistic, relative to where he was before, it’s worlds apart. I’ve raised examples before but another one to highlight his growth; at the end of the series, the last thing he does before his legs give out and he breathes his last, he buries Ran (well, literally, he casts her head into the Raffia pit.) He couldn’t do anything but stand by his dying mother. Stand silently as he’s handed a cluster of her cells. The only thing on Earth that he cared about was in that vial. However, by the denouement of the series, though he doesn’t have the temperance to quell the rage at the direct hand of Ran’s demise, he has gained something that allows him to even grapple with the emotions, articulate them, to take action and mercifully kill Ran, give her remains a meaningful burial, and face and overcome his bereavement, to die not in tears or stony silence but with a smile. His sentimentality remains, reforged with serenity. What I said about appreciating it in full, this is it. Before, even though Ichise cared for his mother, he developed a complex, rather than appreciating his mother and any memories of her, he is too consumed by grief and further fear of loss to ever even think of what his mother actually meant to him. By the end, with Ran, he can bear the pain and see beyond it, to the core feeling that she left in him.

I know it doesn’t sit right with you about how he left Doc behind, and I can’t really exculpate him from this. In his defense, I contend that his true appreciation only comes when her cells activate in his bio-circuit upon his return to Lux, and that he emerges from his chrysalis only after his fight with Toyama, at which point returning to Lux with Doc isn’t even feasible. It’s possible he doesn’t even understand the depth of her despair and doesn’t know her intention to literally kill herself. After all, he talks with the “dead” beyond just Doc. You raise a good point about him jumping in to save her before, but we also know Ichise is a faithful guard dog, and at that time, at Onishii’s command, he goes along with her, and presumably as an extension of that, he saves her from imminent danger. He does this for Kohakura and Gotoh as well. The ensuing intimate conversations he has with Doc are more of a detente than anything else. His resentment dissipates, but that’s the extent of it after her admission and apology. I don’t think it negates his development that he didn’t or couldn’t save her from the despair of her raison d’etre shattering. Whether he could even fully comprehend it. Though it would be nice if there was something he could say to pull her out of the abyss, he didn’t and it’s possibly the biggest obstacle to my assertion that he was growing the capacity to overcome apathy. He does offer rebuttal, but he accepts her decision quite easily. Maybe in different circumstances or with more time, he would have said more.

For clarification, by the way, his mother’s cells are not part of him. Doc confesses her lie to Ichise, and to atone for this, does add her own cells this time. So when he accepts his texhnolyze, it is removed from the attachment to his mother, it is fully for what intends his new limbs to do that he recognizes them as his own, and his appreciation for Doc comes from a deeper place, finally seeing the vision she tried to show him of what her Texhnolyze is for.

Regarding Ichise joining Organo, I apologize for conflating Ran’s revelation of her vision to Ichise with Ichise’s incentive to join. At his induction into Organo, he only knows that she is avoiding him, but does not know why. The full-fledged, self-propelled motivation to change does not come until after he has already joined Organo. It is only a fledgling, passive growth he seeks from Ran before her knowledge of his future. His desire to grow grows.

I would also like to elaborate the point I made about him rebuking the Theonormal after his fight with Toyama. The importance here is not about declining to stay on the surface, it is the admonition to the Theonormal, calling their ancestors selfish when he beguilingly muses that they placed the real hope for humanity in the ancestors of the underground. This is a landmark for Ichise, as it is the first time he articulates any kind of value judgment.

Perhaps I should’ve structured this differently, because I’m not sure how to conclude, and I couldn’t respond point by point. I’d like to explain somewhere that the surface world doesn’t represent post-scarcity alone, or even necessarily. To append to what I said before, it’s a world where evil, crime, hunger, disease, none of this exists. Relationships still exist, as shown by the couple eating together at the cafe whom Ichise offers to shoot. Leisurely pursuits and pointless routine are the only things to do on the surface. Life devolves into a losing battle with ennui, and the soul can only be suffocated by such a world. There has to be something more, and it’s what Yoshii and Sakimura seek. We can presume they didn’t find it, but they were closer in Lux. Sakimura had only nominally escaped the above, still finding a comfortable, complacent life below, better by his admission but only marginally. From the surface, it’s only Yoshii that comes close to finding something more, but whether he ever reached it is impossible to say, and defining what that is is even harder. The tangible effect of this but also everything else in the show places self-transcendence outside of a traditional hierarchy of needs. Biological needs and security are side by side with spiritual needs, rather than layered atop each other.

They’re fair questions, part of me is glad that you’re making me work for it XD Having to give shape to vague sentiments is in the long run only making me appreciate the series more, so I really hope I can convince you of the merits I see in it. The relationships are sparsely written in words, but painted in vivid color, to fulfill both narrative and critical roles.

In defense of Ichise: there is a subdued but potent characterization going on throughout the show that I feel makes him a deserving protagonist. I hope this will in part explain away some of the misgivings you have about him, and by extension, the show at large, and help bring you around to giving more credence that there is a substantive discourse going on in Texhnolyze. There is a fantastic scene early on that establishes an important characteristic of Ichise’s. When he accepts the Organo mobster’s mistress’s solicitation for sex, he is taken to a mansion, or what stands for one in Lux. Skipping the foreplay and immediately thrust into the action, we are presented an unnerving scene, a room adorned with dolls, a steel-frame bed with an unglamorous mattress and tattered sheets under a tall window letting in the pale glow of the artificial night light in Lux counterlit by the candleglow from a room away where the mobster sits and observes the morbid display. While every bit of the scene breeds its own unease, the dolls evoke a particular disquiet. To answer why they’re here in the story, there’s a clear sexual gratification the mistress derives from her prosthetic hand. The dolls are an extension of this psychosexual fascination with the approximation of human form as well as possibly an extension of the voyeurism present. But they have a secondary importance beyond mere props. Look at Ichise, and we see that he is one as well; apathetic, torpid, completely still. She is atop him, writhing in ecstasy: he is beneath, as lifeless as the dolls decorating the room. But she crosses a line. Lost in herself, as she presses her nail onto his cornea, her gaze strips Ichise of some deep, unshapen dignity. He does not immediately respond with violence: he bears it with inhuman fortitude, but as her face distorts into a sneer of complete condescension, it is then that he snaps to life to strike her off of him (also as an aside, note which arm he uses: the right.) This is a foundational moment in understanding Ichise. Later, when his (right) arm is cut off, he cries and wails as is only natural, but when he regathers some amount of composure, the sight of the mistress curling her lips and walking away sends him into a frenzy. He doesn’t consider his situation at all, or the consequences, all he wants is to retaliate for not just the injury, but the insult. This trend continues: newly dismembered, as he hobbles his way through the streets of Lux, he tries to signal his need for food, clenching a bill in his teeth as he locks eyes with a street stall proprietor. But when the shopkeeper brings him a bowl, declining to take the money, Ichise rejects the charity outright, pulling himself up and hobbling away in defiance. Later on, as he collapses on the stairs of a random back alleyway, he sees a vision of himself, walking up without any difficulty, stopping briefly to gaze down at him before turning forward and continuing, as if to say “You’re so pathetic.” And all Ichise can do now is hit the wall he’s leaning against in frustration. At last, when he meets Doc, we see the limits of his strength. She is now the only thing standing between him and death. He accedes to her taunting to add “please” when he asks for water. He sits through her scornful braggadocio. And he suffers the ridicule of his mother and his affection for her. She’s pressing on the wounds: not a hair of her sadistic torment is going through Ichise without making ripples in the water. We see his eyes track Doc and pick up every offense: so beside herself in rapture that she can’t even hold her wine in her mouth. It is clear partway through the surgery that Ichise has been plotting to escape when he has regained the strength. He stops himself from outright murdering her, but he destroys her phone (which she was haughtily conversing with Onishii on just moments before,) and explodes in rage. He denies his arm and leg, on several grounds. Recognizing the above is vital to understanding the total rejection he gives his texhnolyze. His resentment to condescension, the anger at Doc’s (false) disclosure of the defilement of his mother in use as nothing more than a piece of the bio-circuit, all piled on top of the inherent physical layer to rejection. He is a fighter, he values his body. As we see in the brief fight, there is a euphoria he feels where his body is attuned to his spirit. The discombobulation from the neurological/optical augmentation, the phantom limbs and cold hunks of steel, they deny him this attunement. The texhnolyze is to him a separation of his body and spirit, a desecration of his cherished mother, and a permanent consternation, disdain manifest in the most ironic of ways, sewn onto his very self.

By the end, this is no longer the case, however: He accepts his texhnolyzed limbs, not just passively, but fully avowing them as his own. To understand why he accepts his limbs, you have to understand his full character arc. There are a great many things that change him, but let’s start with his father. It’s not that he forgives his father, it’s that he accepts the past and in fact is the one to apologize. He resents his father because of the abandonment he feels from his father’s death, and a second abandonment when death cleaves him from his mother, the cause to which he attribute’s his father’s actions. But even after revelation of his father’s innocence, he still has not worked through it. And even after coming to believe his mother had known of his father’s situation and decision that risked what would eventually come to be, he had not fully accepted it. At the same time Ichise’s trauma surrounding his father is coming to light, he meets Toyama. Toyama serves to greatly contrast Ichise. Ichise and Toyama have much in common, as relatively young men, underlings to powerful players in Organo, and passively living. Unlike Ichise, however, rather than a ghost haunting him, Toyama has a father who is alive, a wicked father that he does not want to see, an extant malevolence that continues to prey on his soul. Toyama candidly remarks early on that Ichise is a mirror that he looks into, a paragon. This is new and strange with regard to Ichise’s position thus far: the stumbling, aimless zombie. But their brotherly relationship dynamically evolves, and does not go only one way. Ichise is growing from their interactions as well; he is observing Toyama’s trajectory, asking questions to understand him, why he does what he does, and if it’s worth it. And in the end, we see that to Toyama, his inability to overcome the resentment of his father caused him apoplexy; choking on his own rage, he has lost the will to live, accepted Kano’s texhnolyzation, and come to Ichise seeking death. At the end of the fight, we get an incredibly important shot: easy to overlook but perhaps the most important shot in the show. As Toyama falls, thanking a grimaced Ichise, we see a cicada, emerging from its molt. This is the demarcation of Ichise’s rebirth. Here is the point at which his transformation has begun to set in, and after this point we see a whirlwind of signs of change in Ichise: immediately after, he apologizes to his father, the culmination of his acceptance of his parents’ deaths and overcoming of the bereavement. Shortly thereafter, a defiant rebuke of the Theonormal’s wheedling request for Ichise to stay on the surface. An invitation to the friendly shade that lets him recharge, to come to Lux when the storm passes. In Gabe, respectfully rejecting the man whom Onishii, his role model and second father, had revered and told Ichise to do likewise. In Lux, acceptance of his texhnolyze, and a full understanding of and appreciation toward Doc. Her apology and role in his biocircuit, the good intentions behind her broader actions, her affections, her symbolic maternity. I know it doesn’t sit well with you that he left her behind on the surface, but he was still in his chrysalis at that point: he did not yet have the capacity to do any more for her. And his actions even still show that it is a continuous process. He decimates the mob that gunned down Onishii, and with the fullness of his wrath punches off Kano’s head. But an important distinction between now, and from the start of the show: he articulates the great distress this causes him. He apologizes profusely in his head to Ran. He grieves not just for the loss of the ones close to him, but for the further loss of life he is about to cause. It was a trait engendered in him by meeting Ran, but another one that could not manifest fully until now. At the heat of the gang war, Ichise ignites the violence with gleeful abandon. But in its wake, he is mortified, only able to release his angst with a horrified scream. Now, there is now a great apprehension to brutality. It is a complex mesh of emotions, paradoxically informing him of the necessity and senselessness of it all. In some sense, he has not changed at all: he is only human. But at the same time, he has been remade, the fruition of the primal man. True sophistication, complexity, and most importantly, sincerity. He embodies the full range of human emotion. He was in the beginning, the exemplar of the will to survive, a flame flickering against the wind to not be snuffed out, but only so that he may keep on burning. But in the end, on death’s door, he has meaning in the remainder of his life beyond survival. He accepts Ran’s death with sorrow, and his own death with a faint smile. Dying believing that he ever lived at all is good.

As much as understanding the way in which he changes, is the reason for his change. Understanding the role Ran plays in inspiring this change. To Ichise, Ran is purpose. Her flowers are his guidance. Lost, they are a light unto his feet. It is no secret that Ran is a messianic figure. Her role in the greater themes of Texhnolyze is ambiguous, there is a great deal of discussion to have around her but setting that aside, with specific regard to Ichise, I believe she is the genuine salvation of his soul. Before her, he is hollowed out, with only resentment and anger lining the shell. Unlike the condescension or pity from everyone else, Ran’s guidance is unimposed. It is freely given, and free to refuse. What she gives him is unconditional. It can’t be understated how much this means to Ichise. But when she receives her vision of the future Ichise will bring, and runs, Ichise is now lost again, without guidance, without meaning. So in order to regain it, he opens his heart to the world: to let in what will change him, and let out what needs to change. His initiation into the Organo is directly because of this. He seeks to emulate Onishii to learn how to effect the change in him that will bring him back into communion with Ran. The change obviously doesn’t come quickly or easily, but the transformation has begun: to contrast him to Kano, this is Ichise’s catharsis.

And now, for how all of this relates to nihilism… Much is ambiguous in Texhnolyze, the specific critiques of specific aspects of society or the individual, but the ultimate message is most decidely not. It is not enough for our existential answer to respond to the physical world. Satisfying material need, creature comfort, eliminating disease and old age, adopting technological or genetic modification to change our capabilities or even very natures: all of this is insufficient. Humanity will meet its end if we do not attend to our spiritual needs. More imperatively, cultivating our spirit is not just a key part of defining our destiny: it is the ONLY thing that matters. It is not weak flannel to suggest a pleasant sounding message, plying empty ideals of the power of love, nor is it pointless tragedy with appended moralizing. As I said before, it is a passionate entreaty to not neglect our souls. To embrace with ardor the struggles of life, and overcome them by direct confrontation, to accept the full range of human experience and cherish it, this is *the* point of Texhnolyze. As art, to evocatively make you feel what reason alone can only tell you.

Brace yourself, essay incoming :P Time to test how many characters you can post at once here

So I've spent the entire day deeply lost in thought, at how to interpret Texhnolyze, let alone how to convey that interpretation, but just an hour ago (edit: 3 now since i've been typing this rofl) as I went for yet another walk on which to contemplate, I was hit with an epiphany that quelled my doubts and pulled the whole thing together. To provide a full A-to-Z encyclopedic interpretation would take more mental power than I can muster at this point, but I'd love to discuss the finer details later. For now, though, there's one point in your initial response that I would like to address: I want to convince you of the breadth and depth Texhnolyze has by relating that epiphany I had.

In an earlier message, before starting my rewatch, I had rejected the notion that Texhnolyze is nihilistic; though it is extraordinarily bleak, I thought the ultimate message was one imparting meaning and the importance of meaning. That said, Texhnolyze is an extensive treatise on nihilism. Symbolism is rife throughout Texhnolyze; it is the very language of the show. It weaves a tapestry with symbols to explore existence, meaning or lack thereof in existence, responses TO meaningless in existence, and offer its own.

Or so I thought, but in my analysis, I had basically come to an exegetic end: I had an interpretation that I liked and wanted to be true, but I had a competing interpretation that I dreaded to be true but couldn't satisfactorily refute. The core of the matter was twofold: first, who is the true protagonist? Second, if it is Ichise, did he really undergo a meaningful transformation over the course of the story?

The first question may or may not seem strange: if it doesn’t, you’re ahead of me so bear with me. Ichise is the protagonist, of course! Isn’t he…? Well, if we analyze Ichise’s character a bit, let’s go back to an earlier conversation we’ve had. Animalist or primal, regardless of what we call it, we both roughly understand the character: he is largely the most crude form of life, an organism merely sensing and reacting. He exhibits little agency for most of the story beyond mere survival instinct. There are bits and pieces of higher cognition, but relative to virtually every other named character acting with aspiration, with purpose, Ichise is simply there, being shuffled from place to place at the beck and call of other characters. He is as much an object being acted upon as he is a character. So who then, could the protagonist be? Well, let’s go back to episode 1: who’s story do we see in parallel with Ichise? In a conventional narrative, who’s more likely the main character: a random tough from some dingy town, or the cool cowboy who just rode in? That’s right, the other candidate is Yoshii. For the next third of the show, it’s as much Yoshii’s story as Ichise’s. He is sophisticated and suave, he is calculating, cunning, and most importantly, he is acting with intent and purpose. I’ll skip a few steps and get straight to the nitty-gritty now: he is a paragon of the idea of Ubermensch. He exhibits every trait in shining color. He is self-overcoming: he has developed his own values. He rejects traditional morality. He has fully embraced life, every aspect of it is totally affirmed, and he has the Will to Power. He has transcended good and evil, he has seen despair and worked through it to create meaning ex nihilo. Put into the context of an extensive consideration of nihilism, a character that conquers it so totally seems to be the natural fit for protagonist.

But this interpretation is troubling for many reasons. First of all, he fails in his goals not even halfway through the show. How can the protagonist die, failing utterly? Secondly, subjectively, as you and I have also briefly touched on: it’s hard to think of anyone in this show as a hero, let alone an “evil” nutjob like Yoshii. I don’t want someone like that to be the ideal we’re supposed to aspire toward.

But I couldn’t refute it. It was almost too perfect a fit. So I turned to examining the other case: Ichise is surely the protagonist, after all. But then with such a bleak ending, and considering the idea of the ubermensch and a whole philosophy behind it, how can we interpret Ichise’s story? The silhouette of a character arc exists, at the very least. But can we really say that Ichise underwent a real, meaningful transformation? We see him confront personal demons, specters of the past, we watch him accept his texhnolyzation, we see him try to emulate Oonishi, we see a thaw in him as he opens up to Doc and try to become sophisticated, and he tries all of these ways to change because of Ran. But the important question is: is this transformation meaningful? When he encounters and realizes some of the murderers of his father, he brutalizes them, falling immediately back to the way he was at the start. Despite all his seeming growths, he still does as he’s told like a dog, and follows his simplistic emotions. Finally, he gives in to rage one last time and, with all intensity, exacts vengeance on Kano. Then he dies like a dog, curled up in a corner, wistfully looking at a reminder of someone who showed him affection. If we think of the ubermensch, Ichise is antipodal to that ideal. Well, not quite, as the Nietzschean antithesis of ubermensch is the last man, which is clearly the Theonormal on the surface. But on a different spectrum, Ichise is the farthest thing away from actualization. In this interpretation, the flower is illusory, a hollow token deluding Ichise one last time before he dies, drawing his gaze away from seeing the meaningless of it all.

This is a terrifying interpretation to accept, but now I hope I’ve taken you through the condundrum I was in. I didn’t want to admit the ultimate statement of Texhnolyze was an imperative to become ubermensch or else spirtually die out. But these interpretations were starting to look more and more convincing as I considered all the symbolism. My old interpretation was still as valid in my head for as many reasons, but I was confronted with two alternatives that couldn’t all be true. And as I was grappling with this final, binary question, I felt stuck. So I left exegesis and went back to making sure I’d comprehended the story.

Specifically, looking at Ran's prophecy and Ichise's role in it. Ran was paralyzed by fear any time she would look at the future with regard to Ichise. It actually seems quite odd when you consider that she stoically looked at Yoshii's future. She foresaw the destruction he would foment, and even when it came to pass, she merely walked away with cool disappointment. But foreseeing Ichise's role in the future brought her to her knees, she threw her head back and wailed. She shuddered to speak or leave her chambers in dread of what he would enkindle. It's all the more peculiar given how passive Ichise is. He's exhibits little agency beyond survival instinct. So to think that he would cause something more terrible than the carnage Yoshii ignited is hard to imagine. But in the end, we see the capital H Hell that comes about, and while Ichise *was* a cog in the machinery that led to it, it's very hard to argue he was any more responsible than any other named character, let alone clear ushers of doom like Kano, who had the most direct hand in anything. So the question becomes, what is it that Ichise did that so horrified Ran?

And the answer that came to me brought me to tears: in his reminiscent monologue to Ran in his head as he walks to the opera house, he reflects that the Texhnolyze wasn't what changed him; it was Ran. And he asks, "Did you change because of me?" Here's where it hit me like a freight train. The answer was yes. Ran changed because of him. It's because of Ichise that Ran changed, gave Ran the courage to see the future, and further, try and change it, and it was THIS action, her overstepping her role as Theoria, that led to the end of light in Lux, and drew the curtains on humanity. Kano, having taken Ran captive now, begins to converse with. He refers to her as his sister, and calls her by a name we've never heard, "Theoria.” Her role is the contemplator, the observer, the spectator, of God. Kano reprimands her for speaking to Oonishi when she tells him to kill Hirota, and continues to not only speak but command through the obelisk to various characters. As she confesses, she had shown her visions of the impending Hell to the citizens of Lux, but this only drove them to despair and insanity, fulfilling the prophecy she had been dreading ever since she met Ichise. The future that so scared Ran, is the one where she is changed by having met Ichise, and inadvertently through her actions ironically causes the apocalypse. If Ran has changed because of Ichise, then the inverse is true as well, and thus, the meaning Ichise finds in life conquers nihilism. It emphatically rejects meaninglessness, bypassing the need for the rise of an ubermensch.

There is an ocean of analysis I haven’t even gotten to and it’s already this long, I don’t even know MAL will handle this lol. But I hope me taking you through part of my interpretation process will lead you to understand, if not my interpretation, why I think Texhnolyze is fully deserving of a 10. I feel a profound message with laborious consideration and effort put into delivering it lies within Texhnolyze, even if I’m wrong about what that message is, and merely pondering what it has to say is already more enriching than what 100 other typical anime (or other media) have to offer. If Texhnolyze isn’t a 10, then to me, nothing is.

Yes, I just finished it and there's a lot of uncollected and inarticulate thoughts. I'll have to sit with it over-night and hopefully I'll be able to give it form tomorrow >_>
It was a serendipitous occurrence that you messaged me and gave me impetus to rewatch it. Some of my original interpretation was reinforced, but a lot of it was challenged, to say nothing of all that I hadn't even uncovered the first time and how much I'm still not quite sure what to make of. Even aside from the greater subtext, the story itself still hit me like a train. The ending still had me choked up and teary-eyed all over again.

Quite a lot to respond to haha. I suppose I'll start with 12 Kingdoms. You're right on the money about Asano and Sugimoto. I couldn't place their names but they were precisely who I was thinking about. I didn't know anything about the book, but it does explain why they feel so shortchanged. Their circumstances were interesting and a ripe opportunity for exploration, but they felt so paper-thin. I vaguely recall feeling this way to a much lesser extent about other characters as well from time to time, even the main heroines, though I don't think anyone was quite so exemplary of this as the male classmates, whose entirety felt lacking. I couldn't place when and where from my memory, it's just been too long. Perhaps I'd feel differently on rewatching it, right now I'm only left with the lingering sentiments and very spotty fragments.

As for Texhnolyze, I'd say your understanding of it is pretty solid, but our perspectives seem to be totally divergent. Maybe I can reframe it a little to make you resonate with it more (I hope.) First, I'd have to ask, if you wouldn't mind, giving me a couple days to rewatch it to freshen my memory. I don't know if you can tell, but I might've crammed my head so full of cartoons that I've got swiss cheese for a brain now haha :P I'd like to not only defend my position from a stronger point of reference, but also the opportunity to reanalyze it is probably a good thing.

I would say this now, despite being unmistakably a tragedy, I don't think the show is nihilistic: in fact quite the opposite, I think it's a very impassioned remonstrance of losing our humanity, either in pursuit of some imagined ideal of our evolution, or to apathy birthed by dejection from the hardships of living. I think there is a blazing white beacon in the symbolism of Ran's flowers and Ichise's remembrance of her drawing. It is a resplendent thing, an inimitable gift to live and have lived as a human. All the tribulation Ichise goes through emboldens this. I know you didn't personally connect with Ichise, which might be a major factor in explaining why you feel differently than me about the greater matter of the weight behind the statements the show is making. I agree with you about Onishi, Kimata, and Shinji, and least of all Yoshii, being heroes, but I do think Ichise stands apart from them, not necessarily as a hero, but as a sympathetic protagonist and not quite the bastard the others are. To me, rather than animalistic, I think Ichise embodies the platonic ideal of a man: his fears and anxiety, his rage, his illogical sentimentality, his something-not-quite-but-adjacent-to pride, but many other traits, these are the purest form of humanity, whereas those of the other characters, I would like to believe they all have a more... derived nature, for lack of a better way to phrase it. Characteristics not born with man but stemming out of something acquired later. Or in Yoshii's case, something perverted from its original form.

This is why I'd like to re-familiarize myself with the specifics, because it's hard to elaborate from my hazy memory, and I'd like to give you a satisfactory answer.

Awesome, another Red Garden fan! It was such a hidden gem for me and one that's hard to turn people onto, I think it's the kind of show that needs a particular sentimentality to let yourself get wrapped up in the emotions.

It's been around a decade since I watched Twelve Kingdoms so forgive me for being vague and spotty on the details. I really wanted to like it, and for a solid amount of the long runtime, I was. But there was also a roughly equal amount of the time where I needed more from it, particularly in regard to the characters. I remember feeling a little bit disappointed when it felt like a character was just being molded to conform to an arc. It felt like too often they were filling a role of the plot, rather than carving their role in the plot by their thoughts and actions. There was also an imbalance in how some characters got development. It felt like some were really lacking and one-dimensional when their peers were getting tons of development, and led to some uninteresting clashes where one side would be nuanced and well-reasoned, while the other would feel a bit cartoonish and flimsy. Beyond that, with regard to the main plot itself, it was very easy for the magical heroes of fate stuff to lose me. That element was a lot more likely to feel forced, artificially driving the plot forward without sufficiently selling it to me. It wasn't a point of contention the whole way through, but from time to time it did feel like it was unduly superseding a more character-driven story where it made me believe the characters were acting the way they were and why things had to play out like they would. The times I most enjoyed Twelve Kingdoms were when it felt like it was the intersection of the characters' various goals and motivations compounding and clashing. The more intimate the story was, I found the better it was, and the broader and more wide-scope it was, I found myself less engaged and dissatisfied with the narrative. It never got to the point that I thought it was "bad," it's just when it did start to lull, what I needed to bring me back was more intimate story-telling with less formulaic or contrived-seeming developments, but especially toward the end, it started to feel rushed and like it wasn't devoting the time or attention it needed to to every part of the narrative. Sorry, again I can't recall much in the way of concrete detail, only the lasting sentiments and bits and pieces. For my personal ratings, a 7 is the blanket "that was good I'm glad I watched it." Whereas a 6 I give to those unfortunate shows that had a lot going for it but also too much going against it for me to overall say "I liked it." Just to emphasize I didn't hate it if it's your jam.

As for Texhnolyze, for me to give a show a 10, it needs to be far more than idle entertainment. I will be the first to admit that its obtuse presentation makes it hard to follow. I actually had to watch it repeating each episode immediately after, before moving on. Rewatching some scenes many times over. But when I did feel as though I'd sufficiently digested what had transpired, I found it to be extremely rewarding. There's a surface layer story with its own intriguing plot: I was greatly invested in Ichise's personal struggles, the factional conflicts and political maneuvering, the unsettling futuristic limbo, this whole world littered with questions begging to be asked, all of it was captivating. And beneath it all is where I really found that next level of appreciation that pushes it to a 10 for me. There are fascinating themes being explored in Texhnolyze, and explored not with wishy-washy surface level lip-service, but deep, emotional statements being made about things like the nature of man, his tendencies, his vices, his virtues, the exploration and ultimate rejection of transhumanism, and the fragile but persistent human spirit. For me, Texhnolyze was a challenging piece of media, but a deeply rewarding one at all levels; viscerally, intellectually, and emotionally. It's not the first or only challenging thing I've engaged with, but it's one that resonated with me more than most. I vibed with the story, I vibed with the morals, I find its message compelling while still being a good story unto itself.

↓↓↓ The comment below me is probably made from an alt. ↓↓↓

He was getting dragged in the comments so he pathetically made an alt to leave a positive comment

Hello! I hope you don't mind my sudden friend request, I've grown addicted to reading your old forum posts for Vampire Princess Miyu after each episode— not only do I agree with a lot of your speculations and observations, but there are so many other points you made that I never even realized or thought of myself (which are all equally as fascinating haha!) xD

U keep asking this shit to everyone like an NPC LOL. I mean what are u even gonna do about it?