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Savanna's Reviews > Stardust

Stardust by Neil Gaiman
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did not like it
bookshelves: fantasy-and-science-fiction

My high expectations for this book (the first I've read of Gaiman's) were badly disappointed. The writing was poor, the story cliché and shallow, and the content problematic. I've read that Gaiman is better with graphic novels, and that seems likely. He obviously has some talent, so I'm hoping this book is just a miss.

One issue I had with Stardust was the writing itself. Gaiman tries to write an "adult fairy tale" with what I think are terrible results. The tone is light-hearted and sarcastic, but it really isn't funny when it tries to be. Perhaps to make his story "adult," Gaiman is sure to include occasional scenes of sex and grotesque violence, but they seem awkward and out of place in the otherwise juvenile text. The plot and character development are extremely simplistic (as is the dialogue) in a way that would be better suited to a parable, but Stardust otherwise follows a more usual novel tone, so the suddenness and implausibility just come off as poor writing. The writing basically seems like a failed attempt at Piers Anthony's Xanth novels that is neither clever nor funny nor original.

This book makes heavy-handed use of basically every fantasy trope in existence. From the dry tone, it seems as though Gaiman's poking some deserved fun at them, but if there's meant to be an undertone of light-hearted criticism in Stardust, I couldn't find it. Why draw so heavily and randomly from these devices when they do nothing to round out Stardust's unimaginative world of Faerie, or to flesh out the flat characters and plot? By haphazardly including every familiar trope, Gaiman makes his story bland. I'm left wondering what the point was since it didn't seem to be satire but clearly tried for a sardonic approach. I'm sure he could have made an original, immersive, and interesting world filled with unique institutions and creatures, but he didn't even try. I don't get it.

My third and biggest complaint with Stardust was just how utterly offensive the protagonist, Tristran, is. I don't think good books need to have likeable characters, but Tristran is so problematic yet presented so uncritically (none of the book's sarcasm seems directed at him and his goodness is emphasized throughout) that I get the feeling I was supposed to like him, or at least not find him intolerable. I'm surprised not to have read more criticism of Tristran since for me he was such a dickhole. I'll briefly sum up some of the story here to show why, so if you care about vague spoilers, ignore the rest of this review.

Tristran sets out to capture a fallen star for the woman of his dreams. Who is she? What background have they shared? Why is this man so dedicated to her? All questions that could have fascinating answers, but irritatingly Gaiman employs the tired old story of a man being hopelessly in love with the most conventionally beautiful woman he knows entirely because of her beauty. (I'm again confused by this choice since Stardust is allegedly meant to shake up the genres of fairy tale and fantasy.) Pretty objectifying, sure, but he's young, so I cut him some slack initially. Then we read about how Tristran is just so darn ~*in love*~ that he regularly hangs out outside her window and watches her undress. This is not portrayed as weird or predatory; the book implies a "boys will be boys" attitude about this super creepy invasion of a woman's space. That's when I started to call shenanigans on the story, but it just got worse.

Tristran finds out that the fallen star is actually a woman. He finds her crying because she broke her leg falling from the sky. (Yes, it seems the plot is derived from the world's worst pickup line.) So surely our hero, who is by all accounts a nice young man, and who is after all so very in love with his girl back home who doesn't want anything to do with him (poor Tristran! I can't imagine why) will help this damsel in distress! Wrong. He tricks her, literally shackles her with a magic chain, and FORCES HER TO WALK WITH HIM ON HER BROKEN LEG SO THAT HE CAN GIVE HER AWAY AS AN OBJECT SO THE HOTTEST GIRL IN TOWN WILL SLEEP WITH HIM. That actually happens. Cue a series of typical fantasy adventures. The star (who has a name, Yvaine, but is mainly just referred to as "the star" by protagonist and author alike) begs him to release her, tells him how miserable she is, and cries all the time.

A true manic pixie dream girl, though, she's sure to tell Tristran to make sure he eats enough and doesn't wear himself out—fulfilling her secondary female role as indiscriminate caregiver alongside her primary role as piece of ass. But then she manages to escape, and Tristran feels betrayed and upset. Why won't the sexy ladies in his life just let him abuse them yet!? He suddenly comes to the realization that she's a human and that it's pretty fucked up to have enslaved her, but despite this abrupt stroke of sanity, he's determined to capture her again. He doesn't seem concerned about how fucked up he's being: he simply can't help it because he's in love (an answer everyone else and the author himself seem to accept). Cue more tired scenes with random descriptions of nipples and gore, and he's caught her again.

Then as suddenly as every other development in the story, "the star" seemingly develops Stockholm syndrome when they conveniently arrive at their destination and finds herself now to be in love with our dear, admirable, and ever so refreshing protagonist. Too bad she's a present for the other sexy lady! What I presume was meant to be luckily for her, our poor Tristran is friendzoned again when the object of his infatuation confesses that she loves someone else. She doesn't even want her present (how ungrateful!). Dejected Tristran wanders back to Yvaine, where they abruptly declare their undying love for each other and proceed to live happily ever after.

A dick through and through, Tristran also exerts his masculine, manly machismo when his estranged mother is freed from her own lengthy period of slavery to announce at the end that Tristran is actually heir to a powerful kingdom. (Of course he is!) Mom says how important it is to her that they go back in grandiose procession as a family after her forty years living as a slave in a wagon, but brave, manly, virtuous Tristran sticks up for himself with brave, manly virtue and tells his freshly liberated mom (also a perfect 10) that that's not his style (how humble!) and that he and his lady-object will show up sometime unannounced instead. He sure showed her! Way to stand up for yourself, Tristran!

What I find most disturbing is that Tristran's blatantly misogynistic tendencies seem to be regarded as acceptable by Gaiman himself, while Yvaine's quantum of independence is laughed off as bitchiness. Tristran, who unabashedly objectifies women and literally enslaves Yvaine, is continually described as sentimental, passionate, and caring. Meanwhile Yvaine is described throughout as "hot-tempered" (even in the synopsis), yet the only things she does that aren't hyper-subservient are to insult Tristran (her slaver) and run away after making sure he's resting and has had enough to eat. This character is so mild-mannered and forgiving that she forsakes her independence (what's left of it) to spend her life with the man who so powerfully abused and degraded her. More than that, at the book's weak ending, when the witch who has been hunting her the entire time confronts her, Yvaine forgives the witch and KISSES HER ON THE FOREHEAD before wishing her well. Yet it is the absurdly gentle and obscenely forgiving woman character who is so stereotypically dismissed by Gaiman as uppity, emotional, and wild while the grotesquely selfish and openly cruel male protagonist is celebrated as a victim of passion. This is a sickening reinforcement of rape culture that is neither innovative nor subtle.

So on top of the bad writing, confusing style, and general flatness, I found Stardust pretty offensive because of its treatment of women (I could go on about the lesser characters but I won't). It seemed like Tristran's misogynist exploits were all presented without a hint of reproach, as he won all the typical fantasy hero rewards and was described as sensitive and kind. I've definitely been super critical of him for this, but these weren't incidental issues within the story: they were central to the plot. Plus, in a book written by a contemporary author trying to challenge convention, it's extra difficult to let slide a story that's both poorly executed and deeply rooted in sexist stereotypes.

BONUS BIGOTRY: I also noticed Gaiman twice used the pejorative racial slur "Gypsy" (which is never okay unless you happen to be Roma) and described Native Americans as "savages."
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Reading Progress

November 24, 2012 – Shelved
November 27, 2012 – Started Reading
November 27, 2012 –
page 40
17.86%
November 28, 2012 – Shelved as: fantasy-and-science-fiction
November 28, 2012 –
page 68
30.36% "Meh so far. Some interesting elements but the protagonist is the typical quirky man character who's infatuated with the prettiest (and most poorly developed) woman character he knows. He wants to sleep with her, but—how inconsiderate of her (can't she see his quirks!?)—she won't do it so he goes off on a quest to prove himself and win her like the hollow trophy that she is. *gag*"
December 7, 2012 –
page 186
83.04%
December 7, 2012 – Finished Reading

Comments Showing 1-36 of 36 (36 new)

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message 1: by Jen (new)

Jen Savage Surprisingly, the movie was better.


Savanna Agreed!


message 3: by Hweiss (new)

Hweiss A bit harsh perhaps. I did see the movie first and thought it entertaining, so reading the book seemed obvious to me. I admit that I was a little disappointed and after reading your review I realized much of it was true. That isn't to say I didn't enjoy the book-quite the opposite-but some of the movie elements were much better. I preferred the Captain Shakespeare and his crew of the movie, for example, and their involvement in the book was sadly short. And the ending did leave much to be desired, especially concerning the witch.

Since I confess I haven't read it in over a year, I might be remembering it incorrectly. I agree Tristran was absolutely not my favorite character, and he was certainly a sexist little prick, but perhaps that is the story. I only found him likable in the beginning (and even then only a bit) and didn't think his love for Victoria of any great consequence. I'm not a man, so it's hard for me to judge the "boys will be boys" scenario. I mean, I've seen it many times in literature and film alike that boys watch girls undress. Maybe it has been normalized and isn't actually normal, but I DID view it as "boys will be boys." I admit I'm a little sexist myself, and am not very fond of men, so male protagonists (even antiheroes) don't always spark my interest. I was more interested in Yvaine.

"The star" as she is called frequently, did seem a bit koo-koo-kachoo. After all, she has been kidnapped and abused by Tristran and (although I didn't think about it while reading it, as I usually read first for the story and second for details) suddenly falls in love with him. I don't remember exactly how he treated her, so can only rely on your words, but I'm sure it was not pleasant.

Sorry, I'm rambling. What I mean to say is that I agree with all of your points, even though I think they're a bit over-dramatized. Great review, though. Thank you for bringing some of these points to light for me. I give the book three stars. I agree it could have done without sex as well.

BONUS BIGOTRY: Racial slurs and outright insults aren't always the views of the author but meant to be part of the story. If you respond, please tell me who said them in the story so I can remember better.


message 4: by Hweiss (new)

Hweiss Extra-As to the simple prose and flat character development, I also think it could have been done better. Character development usually doesn't matter to me as I care less about characters and more about events. People are people. So I didn't notice much of their flatness. You're probably right, though I enjoy simple prose sometimes, I admit.


Savanna I certainly think simple prose has its place and can be executed very well (consider The Girl Who Leapt Through Time). But in this case the story felt hollow, didn't it? I think you can convey substance using understatement and brevity, but I found Stardust to be a superficial collection of clichés lacking any conceptual or allegorical meaning, so I didn't get it.

It's sort of hard to say exactly why it felt so flat to me. What do you think could have been done better?


message 6: by Hweiss (new)

Hweiss As a side note-is The Girl Who Leapt Through Time a book? A saw a short movie with the same name and thoroughly enjoyed it. I'll look into that.

I always think things could be done better. Sometimes it's more hard-headedness than anything useful, but it would be hard to tell you exactly what about the writing specifically since it's been a while since I read it. I should probably read it again. But I do think a few plot "extensions" in the movie were wonderfully adventurous and a bit silly. In a good way. I don't remember getting as much of a kick reading about Septimus or the others in the book. Sometimes that's just the movie advantage. It can be hard to describe a certain raised eyebrow or the tilt of a lip in prose (though obviously, to great writers, not impossible).

I guess reading your review kind of scared me. I'm aspiring to be a writer and I'm a lover of well-structured short sentences. It's probably because I used to use nonstop run-ons and got constantly scolded for it. You're right that simple prose has a time and place. I'm still learning when and where it is. So when I even see it mentioned, I worry. Sorry to have jumped to conclusions about that one.

When I read your review, I kept saying "Man, she's right." I never focused on how much of a dick Tristran was. Or how weird it was that Yvaine was so nice to him. I'm not a big lover of romance novels so I guess I just dismissed it as the stupid things people do for love. I wonder if our friend Gaiman meant him to be like that?


Savanna Wow, thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed my review.

The Girl Who Leapt Through Time is indeed a book! It's actually two novellas that are both loosely related to the movie (but very loosely). I think it's a great example of how to write powerfully using plain, understated writing.

And I definitely agree with you that the Stardust movie had some advantages over the book.

I wouldn't worry about preferring a shorter-sentence style. I'm an editor by profession, and I think you'll find that this type of style can be really effective. Plus, in creative writing, it's always the author's prerogative to break any rules. Sometimes unconventional writing is scolded simply because it's unconventional—but that's not right!

I do think Gaiman meant to dismiss Tristran's antics as his being swept up in love, but I also think we as readers and consumers of cultural products more broadly speaking need to criticize messages like Gaiman's that imply that frankly scary and dangerous, sexist behaviour can be swept under the rug of affection. These tropes are all too common in literature and cinema. Just think of how often male characters stalk and abuse female characters, but are portrayed as smitten and helpless themselves.


message 8: by Savanna (last edited 18 mar. 2013 20:29) (new) - rated it 1 star

Savanna Also sorry, I didn't see your original message until now. The bigoted statements I described were all attributed to the narrator. Of course we can't ever assume that the narrator of a story is the author writing candidly, but I think it's important to consider that the narrator in this case is in no way set up as a fictional character herself or himself. Nor do these instances add anything to the story, since the narrator isn't developed at all as a character.

Can I say for certain that Neil Gaiman himself meant the slurs sincerely? Of course I can't. But I get the feeling he included them without noticing how problematic they were, and whether he noticed or not, I do think he has a responsibility not to uncritically include bigoted remarks in his widely read books.

I hope you'll notice that I tried not to write my review as an ad hominem attack on Gaiman himself. It was my intention to call attention to the problematic elements, intended or not, that he included in his book. I'm not trying to say he's a terrible person that no one should pay attention to. I am trying to say Stardust is poorly written in my opinion and also socially problematic.


message 9: by Hweiss (last edited 18 mar. 2013 20:45) (new)

Hweiss You're right about the sexism. I like to think as a whole, most societies are heading in the right direction, however, I've only ever been to two countries and am manipulated by media. Who knows how it really is? That's why I look forward to having money so I can travel and discover the truth.

It is indeed the responsibility of readers to speak out. As a creator, you can make whatever you want, but you have to accept criticisms and compliments alike. Some of them you will take as healthy and helpful and edit accordingly. It's possible he didn't notice these implications. He may also have meant them, and it is merely our opinions that he can cast out without any blame. Such is the life (of course, I'm assuming) of a creator of anything. For example, I wouldn't ask him to change something he's created unless he wanted to. I'm a big believer in freedom of....well....creation. I myself have had people read my stories and simply not care for them. It may not always be a reflection of me as a writer and can be seen as preference.

I will say, I like the man. Honestly, I've only ever read Stardust, but have seen him speak and such. Maybe I'll look into his other works. Stardust was not, in any way, as fascinating as I expected, but I won't lie about enjoying it while it was read.

On the slurs, I agree that a narrator is in many ways a character of the story by themselves. And in my imagination, he is speaking to me as if he were telling the story to someone of his time. If, in the time that he called someone a savage they were known as savages by all, it makes sense to me to use the term. I also wasn't aware until very recently that Gypsy was a pejorative term when I learned where "jipped" (spelling?) came from. That's why they probably didn't offend me, but I definitely see your point. If someone were to use the racial slur for an african-american, I would be offended, because it is still used widely. But I wasn't offended by its use in The Crucible. Although, I suppose that was a character using the word.


message 10: by teres (new) - added it

teres Bless this review. This book made me cringe :<


message 11: by Savanna (new) - rated it 1 star

Savanna Chris wrote: "Bless this review. This book made me cringe :<"

Thanks! Glad I'm not alone in that.


message 12: by Elena (new) - rated it 2 stars

Elena loved the review... totally agree... While reading the novel, I focused less on sexism and more on Tristan generally being a douche bag throughout... Even in my review I pointed out how randomly mean he was to his "newly discovered" mother and i just didn't get what was the point of him being written like that!


Savanna Thanks! Yeah, it's confusing because it doesn't seem like Tristran is a total d-bag on purpose, but he definitely comes off that way.


Jacqueline Boss I couldn't get past the first chapter for these reasons, and after reading your review I am SO GLAD I didn't bother. This book would have just pissed me off.


message 15: by Savanna (new) - rated it 1 star

Savanna Yeah… I don't blame you! I would usually have given up too.


message 16: by Alex (new) - rated it 4 stars

Alex Stargazer I really don't get this review. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fanboy of Gaiman's or this book, but to call the writing "poor"? Really? How many books have you read that have objectively (not purely subjectively) better writing?

I would be very interested to know.


Jacqueline Boss Alex wrote: "I really don't get this review. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fanboy of Gaiman's or this book, but to call the writing "poor"? Really? How many books have you read that have objectively (not purely su..."

There is no such thing as "objectively" better. Better implies an opinion. But criticism of the main character's personality aside, I also thought the writing was poor, dry, and uninteresting. I'm not sure what it is that other people see in it. In fact, I would ask a similar question, but opposite, what is it that makes you see this writing as objectively good writing? I'm not seeing it at all, despite the fact that I enjoy fairytales and fantasy in general.


message 18: by Alex (new) - rated it 4 stars

Alex Stargazer Jacqueline wrote: "Alex wrote: "I really don't get this review. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fanboy of Gaiman's or this book, but to call the writing "poor"? Really? How many books have you read that have objectively (..."

Well, most English teachers and writers--myself included--would define "good writing" with a pretty clear set of rules: the use of creative technique--e.g. similes, metaphors, show and tell, character mirroring in objects and so on--as well as the actual structure of the writing--e.g. proper use of punctuation, suitability of vocabulary, et allius--as well as more general things like, "should this be written in parataxis or hypotaxis?" etc.

I always get very annoyed when readers don't like a book, and claim it's because of "bad writing"; when really, there's something they don't like about the story. I--and many others, I'm sure--would much prefer it if reviewers were more honest, rather than talking about something they don't really understand. (I'm talking generally with that one.)

Yeah, the story seems a bit stereotypical faerie-wise. It's a faerie tale. It's not really meant to be otherwise.

What sets this one apart is that some people really enjoy it--others reviewers have cited escapism, and vivid imagination, among them.

Also, I think the reviewers reference to sexism in context of the novel is quite exaggerated. Binding others in chains, for example, is a very common theme in faerie folklore; and whether it is Tristran doing it for (misguided) purposes, or Madame Semele for (evil) purposes, the aim is not to incite a war between the sexes.

I don't like it because, as you say, it can be a bit dry at times, and felt for me, personally, a little underwhelming.

The problem, I think, is this: people are confusing objective measures--e.g. the quality of writing, or consistency of characterisation--with subjective measures (like subtlety and innovation).


message 19: by Savanna (last edited 08 jan. 2014 18:19) (new) - rated it 1 star

Savanna It's poorly written because it's unimaginative, badly paced, and riddled with clichés.

It's written as a novel, not as a fairy tale. Incorporating fairy tale elements does not make it a parable. Detailed descriptions of how the two narrative forms differ are widely available online.

The quality of writing is never objective, and I don't need to predicate my criticism of this book with a disclaimer of subjectivity. Obviously, my criticism is subjective.

You're entitled to your professional opinion as an English teacher, and I'm entitled to my professional opinion as an editor. But the use of literary devices in no way establishes literary quality. A good book isn't the sum of its metaphors and punctuation, but nor are this book's devices or style particularly polished.

Your suggestion that I don't know what quality means is insulting, and your challenge that I list better-written books is absurd. I don't need to qualify my right to have an opinion to you based on the books I've read, the degrees I have, or the work in publishing I've done.

The last thing I'll say is that sexism doesn't need to be intentional to be harmful. If you read my review again, you'll notice that I've already said that Gaiman's bigotry is likely unintentional. I'd ask you to consider that as a man, it's not your place to tell women what does or doesn't constitute sexism. Misogyny is much more nuanced than an overt "war of the sexes" in the narrative. Plus, my negative review isn't based entirely on the book's sexism as you suggest. I first go over why I think the book is substantively poor before I narrow my focus on the sexist elements.


message 20: by Alex (new) - rated it 4 stars

Alex Stargazer Savanna wrote: "It's poorly written because it's unimaginative, badly paced, and riddled with clichés.

It's written as a novel, not as a fairy tale. Incorporating fairy tale elements does not make it a parable. ..."

For the record, I'm not an English teacher--I'm an author.

Also, I would think "unimaginative" is a highly subjective adjective to use. Pacing is an issue of plot. Cliches? It's written in the style of a faerie tale, as I said: I don't think Gaiman is unaware of the fact, and since this book has won multiple awards and been nominated for another, I would think calling it poorly written is not only offensive to the author himself, but also to his editors (in which case you'd be attacking other professionals in your area) and the people at the American Library Association, Lotus, and the Mythopoeic society.

Of course a book isn't the sum of its metaphors. Then again, that's a pretty big part of the definition of "good writing"--not the book, which I explicitly mentioned.

Also, I was speaking generally when I referred to reviewers unaware of creative writing technique, not to you. Perhaps I should have made that more clear.

Also, both your review and your comments strike me as highly knee-jerk and emotional. I have never aimed to be insulting, and I'm sorry if I came across as such. My comment was related to the fact that you seem to be making some very offensive and hurtful comments against an author, his editor and all the other professionals who made the decision to publish his work, based on what is purely opinion, not factual analysis.

Additionally, your comments on sexism have to be taken in context. Of course it's sexist: it's set in a pre-WW1 era, and in a faerie tale context to boot. Cinderella is highly sexist; likewise Sleeping Beauty, Beauty and the Beast, and many, many other such novels. But of course, one must take the novel in the way that it's meant to be taken: as a proxy for something else.

Having read other works of Gaiman's, I also find it difficult to believe he isn't aware of your aforementioned points. Which leads me to believe that you may have misunderstood Stardust.

Hopefully you will feel different about other novels of his, if you decided to read them.


message 21: by Elena (last edited 08 jan. 2014 19:44) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Elena Alex wrote: "...you seem to be making some very offensive and hurtful comments against an author, his editor and all the other professionals who made the decision to publish his work, based on what is purely opinion, not factual analysis."

Sorry, not my review, but i feel the need to throw in my two cents here. This is not meant to be a site where people have to do their homework and base their reviews on factual analysis and research. We are all entitled to our opinion, whether it is positive or negative. No justifications required. Even if a justification is provided, others don't have to like it or agree with it. Everyone agreeing is not a requirement either. If someone saying that they don't like a book is offensive and hurtful to the authors/editors/etc...then these professionals have chosen the wrong profession and need to grow a thicker skin because their work is out there and most certainly will be criticized by others.

Also Alex - I'm sure you have given 1* or 2* reviews to books before. How do you justify this? Is that not offensive and hurtful to those other authors/editors/publishers? Why do other authors deserve to be offended (since this is what you think a negative review is), but Mr. Gaiman's work is not to be criticized?!


message 22: by Savanna (last edited 08 jan. 2014 23:03) (new) - rated it 1 star

Savanna Totally, Elena.

Review culture is about criticism—positive or negative. Neither I nor anyone else needs to shy away from giving honest negative reviews, especially on a forum like Goodreads. I respect Gaiman enough as an author that I don't feel the need to coddle him. And I've been careful not to frame any ad hominem attacks against him, because as I've stressed throughout, my issue is with the implications of his work, not with him as a person. Neither he nor anyone else involved in creating the book needs anyone to protect them from my negative criticism.

And I certainly don't need anyone to tell me I don't have the right to publish that criticism on an open review forum. If you were to argue as others have that my interpretation of the material as sexist is incorrect, Alex, I would respond as I have above. But that isn't what you're doing. You're asking me how I dare to criticize someone at all. You're insinuating that I'm not qualified enough to have an opinion (which is firstly false because anyone who's read the book does have the right to criticize it, and secondly because I am one of those publishing professionals whom you feel needs so badly to be protected). You're suggesting that I don't know what quality is and demanding that I provide you a list of other books I've read (which is particularly hilarious since Goodreads is literally the only place where you can find a list of every book I've read and rated higher than Stardust).

If you think calling out bigotry amounts to nothing but a "hurtful comment," Alex, I'm not interested in your attempt to shame me. You know what else is hurtful? This sexist book. Readers, and especially women readers, have every right to discuss perceived misogyny in literature—whether you agree or not. And that's all I'm going to say on the matter.


message 23: by Alex (new) - rated it 4 stars

Alex Stargazer Savanna wrote: "Totally, Elena.

Review culture is about criticism—positive or negative. Neither I nor anyone else needs to shy away from giving honest negative reviews, especially on a forum like Goodreads. I res..."

No point arguing with you, since you seem so irrational.

I've said several times previously that you can say whatever you want about the *content* of the book--just that making justifications based on the writing itself might not be correct.

We could probably go at this all day. I can give you plenty of examples in the book that display some *very* advanced and talented writing--the kind you can't learn. But you have no interest in that.

Honestly, I don't understand you. I present the perfectly reasonable idea that the writing itself might not be at fault--you can read some self-published books around that have typos on every page, contrived grammar, childish descriptions, cliches, and a complete lack of understanding of what good writing means, if you really want to see what "poor writing" looks like (and which a non-bestselling author would feel immediately condemned as if you used the same language then--and you say I'm insinuating and offensive.

*Sigh.*


message 24: by Zachery (new) - rated it 1 star

Zachery I gave up on the book a little bit after the protagonist started his ridiculous quest for a lot of the reasons you mentioned: Terrible plot, two dimensional, idiotic,jerkass characters, bad writing, etc. However,I have a couple of things to point out. Gypsy is *not* a racial slur. It's a exonym, which nearly every country gives out to other nations (German instead of Deutschländer, Russian instead of russkiye, Spaniards instead of españoles, etc.) Gypped *is* a slur, but it's been so long dissociated with actual Roma in the United States that it really isn't one anymore. As for the "savages" description, this fits in perfectly with the attitudes of the British at the time this novel is set. The term "Native Americans" only really grew popular in the 1960s. Using it here would be like saying "African American" in the same time frame--jarring.

Most important, however, is your distasteful use of the term "rape culture." This completely undermines the rest of your (legitimate) arguments about the books issues, and paints you as an extremist and a misandrist as surely as someone talking about "bitch culture" would be viewed as a misogynist.


message 25: by Savanna (last edited 15 jan. 2014 20:52) (new) - rated it 1 star

Savanna Calling out bigotry isn't a form of bigotry.

Not only do I not hate men, but it's also equivocation to suggest that a hatred of men implies the same political power as misogyny, which is institutional and systemic. To suggest that misandry and misogyny are equivalent grossly erases male privilege. And to equivocate "rape culture" and "bitch culture" as equally damaging is truly extremist. Rape is a violent injustice that overwhelmingly affects women. "Bitchiness," whatever you mean by that, does not imply systemic violence unto or danger toward men. "Bitch" is a misogynistic slur against women. "Rape" is not a slur against men. And if you think using the phrase "rape culture" is an attack on men, you're implying that you think all men are rapists. That isn't true. And it's ironic to call me a misandrist while at the same time interpreting the phrase "rape culture" as the word "men."

Patriarchy hurts men and women. Men and women perpetuate rape culture. Criticizing patriarchy doesn't harm men.


message 26: by Conor (new)

Conor I have a degree in literature. I have done writing. I took creative writing classes. I've done thesis projects on it, graduated with honors. My brother teaches advanced English as well. I went to a top law school.

Never in ANY of those experiences have I heard someone claim "good writing" has an objective definition, let alone one dependent on metaphors or "hypotaxis," a term so obscurely academic I had to google it and am still not sure I ever heard anyone use it in 4 years of undergraduate studies.

You're not insulting per se, just incredibly arrogant and condescending in claiming some sort of exclusively expert objective standard of good writing. The fact that there are self help books out there with typos and poor grammar doesn't make a novel written professionally "good writing" any more than me snapping a photo of the grand canyon that isn't blurry makes mine a "good photo" simply by virtue of not being wrong or bad. Poor writing doesn't have to mean ill-formed sentences, it can simply mean the writing doesn't achieve the effect intended.


Savanna Conor wrote: "I have a degree in literature. I have done writing. I took creative writing classes. I've done thesis projects on it, graduated with honors. My brother teaches advanced English as well. I went to a..."

I have a degree in literature. I took creative writing classes. I took a publishing program and graduated with honours. I work for a publisher.

It's a bit silly to start calling someone arrogant by listing all your credentials to having an opinion of your own, don't you think? Your "qualifications" don't make you an expert on whether a book is good or bad any more than mine do.

I have never claimed this book is objectively bad. The fact that this is a review written by me makes it clear enough that it's my opinion. I think this is bad writing because of the reasons I listed. I'm not telling you or anyone else that you need to think that too.

You're completely welcome to disagree with me. But it's unfair to write off my review as some sort of attempt at objectivity. Where are you even getting that? I doubt you realize how inappropriate and tone-policing it is to dismiss my offence at a text that I felt marginalized me as pure condescension. I also doubt you read positive reviews of books you like and write the reviewer to tell them how ghastly it is for them to claim a book is "objectively" good.

I think you don't like that I found this book sexist. It makes you uncomfortable. That's fine. That isn't very shocking. Yet I have a hard time believing your sincere objection is that I used the phrase "bad writing" when you go on to explain what "poor writing" is yourself. You're telling me I'm conceited for having my own conception of bad writing and then in the next breath offering your own. When I say something, I think it's objective truth. When you say the same thing, you have an innocuous subjective opinion. No thanks.


Savanna Luis wrote: "Wow. Your explanations are very well said and perfect."

Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed my take on the book.


message 29: by Conor (last edited 06 août 2014 05:43) (new)

Conor Savanna wrote: It's a bit silly to start calling someone arrogant by listing all your credentials to having an opinion of your own, don't you think? Your "qualifications" don't make you an expert on whether a book is good or bad any more than mine do.

You might want to re-read what I actually wrote, because my entire point was exactly this... that listing off credentials to claim some sort of objective view of "good v bad" writing is absurd, especially one dependent on metaphors or hypotaxis. I was replying to Alex's message 18 and saying exactly what you say here... that a list of credentials means nothing and even if it did there's no consensus among those "experts" on what good or bad writing is anyway.

Also, I don't know where you got the sexist nonsense and I'm kind of offended that you are basically accusing me of being one of those "rape culture" guys that's uncomfortable acknowledging sexism based on my gender and a complete misreading of my post - a misreading so far off base I rather wonder if you even bothered to read the entire thing after your knee jerk reaction to my "credentials." And that doesn't even touch the fact that you dismiss my entire point (which is the exact same point as your own) as me just being "uncomfortable" that you called the book sexist, as if that would bother me in the least. If you want to talk about a double standard that dismisses all other viewpoints, writing off anyone that disagrees with you by assuming they're sexist really undercuts every point you won in this thread so far.

For the record, I've never read this book. I just saw message 18 and had to comment on the absurdity of claiming one can be credentialed in objective standards of good and bad writing. I have no idea if it's sexist or not, but it sure as hell sounds boring so I guess I got what I came for...


Savanna Conor wrote: "Savanna wrote: It's a bit silly to start calling someone arrogant by listing all your credentials to having an opinion of your own, don't you think? Your "qualifications" don't make you an expert o..."

I didn't catch at all that you were responding to an earlier comment. There's no indication that that's what you were doing, and I haven't read the earlier comments on this thread for months and months. It looks to me very much like you're talking to me when you're using second-person pronouns to comment on a review I wrote.

That said, I'm sorry you were offended. I hope you can understand where I was coming from because I thought you were just talking to me about the review itself.

I really wasn't trying to accuse you of perpetuating rape culture by saying I can understand why accusations of sexism make people uncomfortable. I think talking about sexism makes a lot of people uncomfortable. I thought that by focusing on something I feel is a very trivial part of my review (and I'm assuming now it was not a trivial part of the comment you were actually trying to respond to) you were expressing that kind of discomfort.

Without any other context to that original message of yours, I had no idea you were alluding to anything else or talking to someone who wasn't me, so the meaning was completely lost.

But I did read the whole thing—several times. There are no cues in the message alone to suggest you're not talking to me about my review, which is what I assume (I think reasonably) when I get a notification that someone has responded to my post. Your points seemed absurd to me, but I get a lot of feedback on this website I feel is absurd. I wasn't dismissing your entire point. I had no idea what point you were making because it looked like you were talking to me about the review. The point it looked to me like you were making was absurd.


message 31: by Conor (new)

Conor I was shooting more for incredulous, but I can see how it would seem absurd with no point of reference. This is actually the first time I realized this site has no cues, so when I click reply to a specific message, there's nothing indicating what I'm replying to unless I manually add it. There may be no real objective writing standards (imho), but that seems like some objectively bad web design to me... guess I learned to include who and what I'm replying to next time. No harm done, truce!


Savanna Conor wrote: "I was shooting more for incredulous, but I can see how it would seem absurd with no point of reference. This is actually the first time I realized this site has no cues, so when I click reply to a ..."

Agreed. Maybe if this weren't such an old review and I had the other comments fresh in my mind, it would have been clear to me.

Oddly, when I click "reply" I get this little quote thing. I don't know what the deal is but it's worth checking out.

Thanks for reading my review anyway and for agreeing with me. Let's agree to blame the website for the confusion!


message 33: by Elena (last edited 06 août 2014 15:03) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Elena Savanna wrote: "Without any other context to that original message of yours, I had no idea you were alluding to anything else or talking to someone who wasn't me..."

Well actually, when he mentioned "Never in ANY of those experiences have I heard someone claim "good writing" has an objective definition, let alone one dependent on metaphors or "hypotaxis"" it was kind of obvious that it was meant towards Alex's comment, since that's exactly what Alex said and used the terms objective, metaphors, and "hypotaxis"... I just found it funny, because I had to google the term hypotaxis - so it stuck :)))))


message 34: by Conor (new)

Conor Yeah, who uses that word? I studied lit for 4 years and don't recall hearing it once. Granted, there's a lot of undergrad I'm a bit fuzzy on...

And my replies don't get quotes from the original. I think I'm getting too old for the interweb.


message 35: by Verte (new)

Verte Alex simply loves an idea of a beautiful enslaved woman, following him around and catering for all his wants, that is all.


message 36: by Savanna (new) - rated it 1 star

Savanna Jessie wrote: "THANKYOU THANKYOU THANKYOU. Seriously, you articulated everything that I was feeling about this book and which I can never discuss because people get angry when you "diss Neil Gaiman." OMG, I think..."

Thanks, Jessie! People sure do get mad, haha. I've gotten a bit of flak for this over the years, so it's always nice when people share a friendly message.


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