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From: Colin S. <co...@ab...> - 2017-04-29 23:11:21
|
Dear all, I have now moved the Microtransat list to google groups. Everyone on here should have had an invite to the new list. If you haven't then simply go to https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/microtransat and join the new group. The google groups interface gives you the choice of receiving and posting messages via email or a web interface. It should also not suffer from the delayed posting problems we've had from time to time with sourceforge. The list alias email (li...@mi...) has now been redirected to the new list. This sourceforge list will remain in place to act as an archive, but I will disable posting to it. Please let me know if you have any problems subscribing to the new list. Colin. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Un o’r 4 prifysgol uchaf yn y DU a’r orau yng Nghymru am fodlonrwydd myfyrwyr. (Arolwg Cenedlaethol y Myfyrwyr 2016) www.aber.ac.uk Top 4 UK university and best in Wales for student satisfaction (National Student Survey 2016) www.aber.ac.uk |
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From: John S. <jo...@te...> - 2017-04-29 15:59:16
|
Hi Robin What part of the servo failed, brushes bearings gears electronics or something else? Was corrosion a factor? Did you test servos that are water resistant, have brushless motors, metal gears and ball bearings? (Expensive). I doubt that those cheapo £10 ones would have been suitable. Cheers. John. --- John Silvester On 29/04/2017 08:12, Robin Lovelock wrote: > Thanks Paul. Yes, that's also peanuts to buy: https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=servo+hs5646wp > So, anyone seriously interested in boat reliability could easily have several running of a suitable tester, > that might simply be a spare autopilot. Remember that the one that failed was not loaded. > > I've just tweaked the "Snoopy" and "Blog6" pages to reflect that the Hybrid autopilot software should now be OK. > I may put several of the servos we use on test soon ( typically 10 USD each ) with the new autopilot testing them, > because the pattern of rudder movement with compass steering is different from the "GPS-Only" logic, > which now kicks in if the compass fails, or you run it on an autopilot with no compass, but just the GPS. > > Robin > www.gpss.co.uk [2] > > On 29/04/2017 00:14, Paul Miller wrote: > > Hi Robin, > > Different servos. The 5646 has about three times the capacity of the 5086. > > All the best, Paul > > On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Robin Lovelock <gp...@co...> wrote: > > Hi All. Here is a section from one of Snoopy's Blog pages from 2015. www.gpss.co.uk/rbblogx.htm [3] - don't waste your time looking through it all :-) > It seems Cezar in Romania suggested this servo. The important thing is to test at least one example of a product in realistic use. > Easiest done by programming something that will provide the same pattern of movement, over what will be months. > Connect several of them in parallel if you want to be more certain of the result. Then leave it running in the "lab" until some fail. > Don't expect too much: these days what has the same case and label may not be the same product ;-) > > Here's that old Blogx material, dating from 2015 below. Current "work" is in Blog6 on www.gpss.co.uk/rbblog6.htm [4] > > To go "off topic". I'll happily use a Forum, but I would not want Colin to dilute his excellent support to Microtransat. > If someone wants to set up a wider robot forum, they can. I like the scope of Microtransat as it is. > It's all to easy to spend time on challenges that are easy: Microtransat is not - for those "competing" ;-) > > Robin > www.gpss.co.uk [2] > > _Thursday 26th March: _Don't feel bad, Cesar in Romania, but your suggestion of trying the HS5086 servo did us a big favour: it reinforced the importance of testing a product before changing the design, based on what is seen on paper. It will also make us look more seriously, in the long term, into a vane-rudder clutch based autopilot: but that may take years before someone designs, tests, AND produces the right product. See when we put this product under 2.5x accelerated 24/7 test above, on Wednesday 4th March. At about 8pm this evening the house stank of something burning: it still stinks now, after having the patio door open 2 hours. I calculate this failure, after 22 days, equates to about 2 months of typical Snoopy autopilot use. i.e. not reliable enough for a trans-Atlantic crossing, where each critical element should have nearer 12 months or more as a MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures). I will be happy to connect any servo supplied to me into the same test rig. The trusty Acoms servo is still running: we will see when that fails. The earlier failure, in the Blog above, gave the same symptoms. See those scorch marks on the paper it was sat on, and is now stuck on. It's a good job it didn't start a house fire ! > > Today I also got a small mains 5v supply from Maplins, so we could put a complete autopilot here under 24/7 test, looking for a "frozen autopilot failure". The Acoms servo will probably be moved across, to join the autopilot Picaxe 08M2 computer, BR355 GPS, and Text-To-Speech, that tells us that it is working correcting, giving guidance to Bray Lake, as in our "Pub Tests". > > _Friday 3rd April 2015: _The Spot4 tracker is STILL running off it's internal batteries. The second Acomms AS-17 servo failed on it's accelerated 2.5x reliability test. This new one lasted 17 days, equivalent to only 42 days, compared with the earlier, used one lasting about 30. Another one was started on test. This seems as if the AS-17 product only has a MTBF in the ballpark of 1 or 2 months: not enough for an Atlantic crossing. We will continue with the AS17 until we find a better product - with low standimg current. If anyone finds one, with low current ~10mA or less, they are welcome to put it in our test rig. > > _Sunday 14th June: _The AS-17 servo stopped today, having been running since 4th May (according to desk diary). i.e. approx 6 weeks x 2.5 = 15 weeks / 3.75 months MTBF. New As-17 would have been put on same 24/7 test, but test rig mains PSU failed. Battery tests indicate that the servo had failed, drawing more current (and getting hot). This had probably overloaded the PSU. > > _Friday 24th July: _AS-17 servo reliability test started again, at 1430, after pouring some Halfords Cycle oil into the lower part of the casing, in the hope that some might reach the motor brushes. If so, this might make things worse, causing the servo to fail earlier. However, there is a chance that the oil might have some beneficial effect, such as lubrication or dissipation of heat. This was after replacing the failed mains USB 5v supply. The new supply caused the Picaxe/Servo to "hunt", so a 5v NiMH battery was added in parallel. We will see how long this servo test lasts, until something fails ! > _Saturday 25th July: _The servo stopped in less than 24 hours, so it seems the oil made it worse. It was hot, like the others. > > _Thursday 3rd September 2015:_ GOOD NEWS ON SERVO RELIABILITY ? I'm grateful to Peter, who recently suggested that our failures of servos, mostly due to overheating, might be due to our 24/7 testing of them at a higher rate of use (2.5x?) than how the servo is normally used in the boat. > > Having looked again at our test program SERVOTST.BAS, I see that we are testing at 5x, not 2.5x. i.e. our guesstimate of the rudder servo lasting 1 or 2 months, should be doubled. Also, this accelerated use maybe, as Peter suggests, be the reason for overheating, and the reliability under normal use might be better. For those interested in the detail: our autopilot logic typically operates the rudder about 10 times per minute, of which about 4 or 5 seconds it is central, then moved to left OR right for 1 or 2 seconds. Our SERVOTST software has been operating the servo as fast as it can: about 24x/minute, with each operation being full left AND full right. Hence my realisation that this is 5x rather than 2.5x normal use. ALSO, under typical use, the rudder will only be moved a small ammount, especially if the boat is going roughly in the correct direction. So this full movement in SERVOTST is a more demanding test. > > A new test program SERVOT2.BAS was made that repeats a more realistic pattern of 4 secs centre, 2 secs full left, 4 secs centre, 2 secs full right, etc. Note that the new test still uses full throw left or right. The test rig was started at 1000 today, with two servos connected in parallel: our trusty Acoms AS-17, and the Hitec HS5086. The bad news is that this more realistic testing will take longer to show results: i.e. it will not be until we are well into 2016, that we will see if the reliability is better than we have been calculating ! :-) > > _27 December 2015:_SERVO FAILS ! The Acoms AS1-17 servo failed, in a hot condition yesterday. We can do the arithmetic in slower time :-) > Meanwhile Snoopy's boat10 remains ready for the next Atlantic Attempt, probably in early 2016. It has a new AS-17 servo. > > On 28/04/2017 21:03, Paul Miller wrote: > > Just a small bit of data to answer the question about rudder servo reliability. We have been using the HiTec HS5646WP on our MaxiMOOPs and in roughly 1500 NM of sailing have had one failure over four boats. The longest one sailed was about three weeks and 500 NM before it was hijacked by a fishing boat. The rudder servo (and everything else) worked fine but we swapped them out for the next try just to be safe and they are reasonably cheap. The one that failed may have been because it was a keel attached rudder, which has a lot more torque on it compared to a spade rudder, and the rudder showed signs of damage. > > On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 1:44 AM, Robin Lovelock <gp...@co...> wrote: > > Hi Folks. I'm up early, just having added a significant update to the "Snoopy" page Latest News on www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm [5] > > I saw the discussion about servos, discussed in emails with Andy and others, and have used some below .... > > ... I should have said earlier that the rudder servo is the weak link in Snoopy's total boat systems. > > I did 24/7 testing of Acoms AS-17 servos at home, for periods lasting typically up to 4 months. > The MTBF ( Mean Time Between Failure ) was less than 3 months, so the MTBF of a Snoopy boat will be less. > I did not need to draw a reliability diagram to see that. > > If the servo fails, the boat will drift, but hopefully we can track it. > If you look at the tracks on all attempts on Microtransat, very few had their autopilot working for more than a day or two. > This is easy to see with Snoopy's SPOT tracking: no 24 hour (Microtransat) delay, when the autopilot steering fails > - by comparing the track with the known drift near there due to wind and tide. > > BUT, my poor build quality over the years, even using good products and materials, is the cause of almost all our Team-Joker failures. > Roy knows better than anyone how I have often had poorly soldered joints in the power wiring. > Over the years, particularly during 24/7 testing on Bray Lake, everything has failed at some time. > e.g. I now use a Z-bend of steel* wire as the push rod from servo to rudder linkage. > We have even had standard servo welded cleats fail after many weeks of use. > * I must now find stainless steel wire so it is not magnetic, but any resulting compass error seems small in Boat11. > > In my career I have always favoured "BUY over BUILD". > Few hobbyists who choose to BUILD ( sometimes re-invent the wheel ) bring testing of reliability into their plans. It takes time ! > > I have all the servos ( mostly that AS-17 ) that have failed, in case anyone wants to strip them down and examine them. Nobody has :-) > > One of my Snoopy blogs (somewhere) has the detail of one that looked - from it's spec - as if it would be better - it was not, but worse. > > It's the old story in engineering: having to prioritise what you do, if you want to meet a timeframe. e.g. Boat11 ready in late summer. > Great if I had a large team of engineers, working 40 hours / week on various project tasks - but I don't. Those were the days :-) > > Robin > www.gpss.co.uk [2] > > On 28/04/2017 01:13, Chris Diacov wrote: > > Hello Duncan, > > I'd be interested to hear more about the dual servo idea- how do you plan to engage / disengage the idle (back-up) servo? Clutch? Other mechanism? > > On the original question: here are a couple more options for unloading / protecting the rudder servos: > > 1. Elastic double-side linkage. Dampens shocks from accidental impacts, provides gradual ramp up of counter-torque. On the other hand, difficult to calibrate, can add a significant amount of error / deviation and potentially flutter; > > 2. Eccentric pulleys that push a tiller. The benefit comes from translating a portion the back force to normal (compression) force on the edge of the pulley, thus decreasing the amount of counter-torque the servo has to fight (at the cost of increased radial load on the bushings/bearings). > > At the end of the day, I think the added complexity and potential for failure outweighed any benefits. Balanced rudder and an oversized metal gear servo would still be your best bet. Maybe add a simple in-line damper in your linkage to prevent impact damage (assuming the rudder and shaft survived). Having 2 independent rudders each with their own servo may give you extra chance of survival. Until both of them fail and get stuck at Right Full :) > > -- > > Chris, Project Pilotfish > > http://www.projectpilotfish.com [6] > > FROM: Duncan Thomas [mailto:dun...@gm...] > SENT: Thursday, April 27, 2017 12:45 PM > > On 27 Apr 2017 7:40 pm, "Andrej Osusky" <and...@gm...> wrote: > > What limits the life expectancy? (Gearbox? Brushless motor? Bearings? Encoder? ...) > > While I've no evidence for it yet, I suspect that the rudder servo experiences far more back force than most servo applications, and so most basic commercial servos won't last well. I plan on looking at some of the open source servo controllers, so that I can add code to detect when the servo is trying to fight too much load, and just let it flap for a while under that circumstance (while logging the event). Basically, if it is driving the motor hard but losing, then stop trying for a while, but let the rest of the system know. The same eventing system can also detect servo failure, so you could potentially fit two servos, with the backup servo free rotating until needed. That wouldn't help if the first servo stuffed a mechanical failure that caused it to jamb, but I've not yet seen that as a failure mode in practice. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general [1] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general [1] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general [1] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general [1] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general Links: ------ [1] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general [2] http://www.gpss.co.uk [3] http://www.gpss.co.uk/rbblogx.htm [4] http://www.gpss.co.uk/rbblog6.htm [5] http://www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm [6] http://www.projectpilotfish.com |
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From: Robin L. <gp...@co...> - 2017-04-29 15:37:28
|
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Hi All - but mostly Roger. I found that old video and it was never
made public.<br>
I guess you don't mind here. Please 'phone me on 01344 620775 or
07736 353 404<br>
or let me know what your's is. If an address, I can provide wheels.<br>
old email (hope video still there) >>>><br>
<pre wrap="">Hi Roger. Here is a 3 minute video, on youtube, but unlisted.
So only those with this link know about it: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://youtu.be/7xmCf5cdOeE">http://youtu.be/7xmCf5cdOeE</a>
Pity John missed the fun - but now he can see what he missed <span class="moz-smiley-s1" title=":-)"></span></pre>
Robin<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.gpss.co.uk">www.gpss.co.uk</a><br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 29/04/2017 16:09, Robin Lovelock
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:3ba...@co..."
type="cite">
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Hi Roger. No harm in this being a public reply, since it was a
public question - how could I refuse ?<br>
We are just down the road from each other, so let's talk direct.<br>
Maybe you can join us here on Tuesday ? Pub grub at my expense
then probably Bray Lake ?<br>
Best continue by direct email - before someone makes a higher bid
:-)<br>
Robin<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk">www.gpss.co.uk</a><br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 29/04/2017 15:56, Roger Llewellyn
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">HI Robin,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">As you know I have been quiet for the last
year and my Microtransat work has slipped badly. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">It is a pity but I just find other stuff
keeps getting in the way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">I have the 2 identical hulls and a mould for
the boat you test sailed with me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">Do you want them ? free of course.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">If not I will offer them to the wider
community.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">Hope things are well with you<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">Regards Roger<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
Robin Lovelock [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:gp...@co...">mailto:gp...@co...</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 29, 2017 8:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:mic...@li...">mic...@li...</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Microtransat] servo life
expectancy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Thanks Paul.
Yes, that's also peanuts to buy: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=servo+hs5646wp">https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=servo+hs5646wp</a><br>
So, anyone seriously interested in boat reliability could
easily have several running of a suitable tester,<br>
that might simply be a spare autopilot. Remember that the
one that failed was not loaded.<br>
<br>
I've just tweaked the "Snoopy" and "Blog6" pages to reflect
that the Hybrid autopilot software should now be OK.<br>
I may put several of the servos we use on test soon (
typically 10 USD each ) with the new autopilot testing them,<br>
because the pattern of rudder movement with compass steering
is different from the "GPS-Only" logic,<br>
which now kicks in if the compass fails, or you run it on an
autopilot with no compass, but just the GPS.<br>
<br>
Robin<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.gpss.co.uk">www.gpss.co.uk</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 29/04/2017 00:14, Paul Miller wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi
Robin,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Different
servos. The 5646 has about three times the capacity
of the 5086.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">All the best,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Paul<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 4:50 PM,
Robin Lovelock <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gp...@co..." target="_blank">gp...@co...</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi
All. Here is a section from one of Snoopy's Blog
pages from 2015. <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk/rbblogx.htm"
target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk/rbblogx.htm</a> -
don't waste your time looking through it all :-)<br>
It seems Cezar in Romania suggested this servo.
The important thing is to test at least one
example of a product in realistic use.<br>
Easiest done by programming something that will
provide the same pattern of movement, over what
will be months.<br>
Connect several of them in parallel if you want to
be more certain of the result. Then leave it
running in the "lab" until some fail.<br>
Don't expect too much: these days what has the
same case and label may not be the same product
;-)<br>
<br>
Here's that old Blogx material, dating from 2015
below. Current "work" is in Blog6 on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk/rbblog6.htm"
target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk/rbblog6.htm</a><br>
<br>
To go "off topic". I'll happily use a Forum, but I
would not want Colin to dilute his excellent
support to Microtransat.<br>
If someone wants to set up a wider robot forum,
they can. I like the scope of Microtransat as it
is.<br>
It's all to easy to spend time on challenges that
are easy: Microtransat is not - for those
"competing" ;-)<br>
<br>
Robin<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk" target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk</a><b><o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f">
<v:stroke joinstyle="miter" />
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0" />
<v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0" />
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1" />
<v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2" />
<v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth" />
<v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight" />
<v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1" />
<v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2" />
<v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth" />
<v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0" />
<v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight" />
<v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0" />
</v:formulas>
<v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect" />
<o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t" />
</v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_s1026" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="HS5086 failed after ~ 22 days x 2.5 = ~ 2 months Snoopy use." style='position:absolute;margin-left:98.8pt;margin-top:0;width:150pt;height:150pt;z-index:251658240;mso-wrap-distance-left:0;mso-wrap-distance-top:0;mso-wrap-distance-right:0;mso-wrap-distance-bottom:0;mso-position-horizontal:right;mso-position-horizontal-relative:text;mso-position-vertical-relative:line' o:allowoverlap="f">
<v:imagedata src="mailbox:///C:/Users/ROBIN/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/dcedzzbq.default/Mail/pop.aol.com/Inbox?number=8&header=quotebody&part=1.1.2&filename=image001.gif" o:title="part5.23B98436.7EE1B6F9@compuserve" />
<w:wrap type="square"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><img
style="width:2.0833in;height:2.0833in"
src="cid:par...@co..."
alt="HS5086 failed after ~ 22 days x 2.5 = ~ 2
months Snoopy use." v:shapes="_x0000_s1026"
height="200" align="right" width="200"><!--[endif]--><b><i>Thursday
26th March:<span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span></i>Don't
feel bad, Cesar in Romania, but your suggestion
of trying the HS5086 servo did us a big favour:
it reinforced the importance of testing a
product before changing the design, based on
what is seen on paper. It will also make us look
more seriously, in the long term, into a
vane-rudder clutch based autopilot: but that may
take years before someone designs, tests, AND
produces the right product. See when we put this
product under 2.5x accelerated 24/7 test above,
on Wednesday 4th March. At about 8pm this
evening the house stank of something burning: it
still stinks now, after having the patio door
open 2 hours. I calculate this failure, after 22
days, equates to about 2 months of typical
Snoopy autopilot use. i.e. not reliable enough
for a trans-Atlantic crossing, where each
critical element should have nearer 12 months or
more as a MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures). I
will be happy to connect any servo supplied to
me into the same test rig. The trusty Acoms
servo is still running: we will see when that
fails. The earlier failure, in the Blog above,
gave the same symptoms. See those scorch marks
on the paper it was sat on, and is now stuck on.
It's a good job it didn't start a house fire !<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><b>Today I also got a small mains 5v supply from
Maplins, so we could put a complete autopilot
here under 24/7 test, looking for a "frozen
autopilot failure". The Acoms servo will
probably be moved across, to join the autopilot
Picaxe 08M2 computer, BR355 GPS, and
Text-To-Speech, that tells us that it is working
correcting, giving guidance to Bray Lake, as in
our "Pub Tests".<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1027" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="Two servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec HS-5086WP" style='position:absolute;margin-left:30.55pt;margin-top:0;width:81.75pt;height:75pt;z-index:251659264;mso-wrap-distance-left:0;mso-wrap-distance-top:0;mso-wrap-distance-right:0;mso-wrap-distance-bottom:0;mso-position-horizontal:right;mso-position-horizontal-relative:text;mso-position-vertical-relative:line' o:allowoverlap="f">
<v:imagedata src="mailbox:///C:/Users/ROBIN/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/dcedzzbq.default/Mail/pop.aol.com/Inbox?number=8&header=quotebody&part=1.1.4&filename=image003.gif" o:title="part6.180F11FB.179E7EEB@compuserve" />
<w:wrap type="square"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><img
style="width:1.1354in;height:1.0416in"
src="cid:par...@co..."
alt="Two servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec
HS-5086WP" v:shapes="_x0000_s1027" height="100"
align="right" width="109"><!--[endif]--><b><i>Friday
3rd April 2015:<span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span></i>The
Spot4 tracker is STILL running off it's internal
batteries. The second Acomms AS-17 servo failed
on it's accelerated 2.5x reliability test. This
new one lasted 17 days, equivalent to only 42
days, compared with the earlier, used one
lasting about 30. Another one was started on
test. This seems as if the AS-17 product only
has a MTBF in the ballpark of 1 or 2 months: not
enough for an Atlantic crossing. We will
continue with the AS17 until we find a better
product - with low standimg current. If anyone
finds one, with low current ~10mA or less, they
are welcome to put it in our test rig.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><b><i>Sunday 14th June:<span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span></i>The
AS-17 servo stopped today, having been running
since 4th May (according to desk diary). i.e.
approx 6 weeks x 2.5 = 15 weeks / 3.75 months
MTBF. New As-17 would have been put on same 24/7
test, but test rig mains PSU failed. Battery
tests indicate that the servo had failed,
drawing more current (and getting hot). This had
probably overloaded the PSU.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><b><i>Friday 24th July:<span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span></i>AS-17
servo reliability test started again, at 1430,
after pouring some Halfords Cycle oil into the
lower part of the casing, in the hope that some
might reach the motor brushes. If so, this might
make things worse, causing the servo to fail
earlier. However, there is a chance that the oil
might have some beneficial effect, such as
lubrication or dissipation of heat. This was
after replacing the failed mains USB 5v supply.
The new supply caused the Picaxe/Servo to
"hunt", so a 5v NiMH battery was added in
parallel. We will see how long this servo test
lasts, until something fails !<span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<i>Saturday 25th July:<span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span></i>The
servo stopped in less than 24 hours, so it seems
the oil made it worse. It was hot, like the
others.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1028" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="Two servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec HS-5086WP" style='position:absolute;margin-left:112.3pt;margin-top:0;width:163.5pt;height:150pt;z-index:251660288;mso-wrap-distance-left:0;mso-wrap-distance-top:0;mso-wrap-distance-right:0;mso-wrap-distance-bottom:0;mso-position-horizontal:right;mso-position-horizontal-relative:text;mso-position-vertical-relative:line' o:allowoverlap="f">
<v:imagedata src="mailbox:///C:/Users/ROBIN/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/dcedzzbq.default/Mail/pop.aol.com/Inbox?number=8&header=quotebody&part=1.1.4&filename=image003.gif" o:title="part6.180F11FB.179E7EEB@compuserve" />
<w:wrap type="square"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><img
style="width:2.2708in;height:2.0833in"
src="cid:par...@co..."
alt="Two servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec
HS-5086WP" v:shapes="_x0000_s1028" height="200"
align="right" width="218"><!--[endif]--><b><i>Thursday
3rd September 2015:</i><span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span>GOOD
NEWS ON SERVO RELIABILITY ? I'm grateful to
Peter, who recently suggested that our failures
of servos, mostly due to overheating, might be
due to our 24/7 testing of them at a higher rate
of use (2.5x?) than how the servo is normally
used in the boat.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><b>Having looked again at our test program
SERVOTST.BAS, I see that we are testing at 5x,
not 2.5x. i.e. our guesstimate of the rudder
servo lasting 1 or 2 months, should be doubled.
Also, this accelerated use maybe, as Peter
suggests, be the reason for overheating, and the
reliability under normal use might be better.
For those interested in the detail: our
autopilot logic typically operates the rudder
about 10 times per minute, of which about 4 or 5
seconds it is central, then moved to left OR
right for 1 or 2 seconds. Our SERVOTST software
has been operating the servo as fast as it can:
about 24x/minute, with each operation being full
left AND full right. Hence my realisation that
this is 5x rather than 2.5x normal use. ALSO,
under typical use, the rudder will only be moved
a small ammount, especially if the boat is going
roughly in the correct direction. So this full
movement in SERVOTST is a more demanding test.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><b>A new test program SERVOT2.BAS was made that
repeats a more realistic pattern of 4 secs
centre, 2 secs full left, 4 secs centre, 2 secs
full right, etc. Note that the new test still
uses full throw left or right. The test rig was
started at 1000 today, with two servos connected
in parallel: our trusty Acoms AS-17, and the
Hitec HS5086. The bad news is that this more
realistic testing will take longer to show
results: i.e. it will not be until we are well
into 2016, that we will see if the reliability
is better than we have been calculating ! :-)<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><b><i>27 December 2015:</i>SERVO FAILS ! The
Acoms AS1-17 servo failed, in a hot condition
yesterday. We can do the arithmetic in slower
time :-)<span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Meanwhile Snoopy's boat10 remains ready for the
next Atlantic Attempt, probably in early 2016.
It has a new AS-17 servo.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 28/04/2017 21:03, Paul
Miller wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Just a small bit of
data to answer the question about rudder
servo reliability. We have been using the
HiTec HS5646WP on our MaxiMOOPs and in
roughly 1500 NM of sailing have had one
failure over four boats. The longest one
sailed was about three weeks and 500 NM
before it was hijacked by a fishing boat.
The rudder servo (and everything else)
worked fine but we swapped them out for
the next try just to be safe and they are
reasonably cheap. The one that failed may
have been because it was a keel attached
rudder, which has a lot more torque on it
compared to a spade rudder, and the rudder
showed signs of damage.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Apr 28, 2017
at 1:44 AM, Robin Lovelock <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gp...@co..."
target="_blank">gp...@co...</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi
Folks. I'm up early, just having
added a significant update to the
"Snoopy" page Latest News on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm"
target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm</a>
<br>
<br>
I saw the discussion about servos,
discussed in emails with Andy and
others, and have used some below
....<br>
<br>
... I should have said earlier that
the rudder servo is the weak link in
Snoopy's total boat systems.<br>
<br>
I did 24/7 testing of Acoms AS-17
servos at home, for periods lasting
typically up to 4 months.<br>
The MTBF ( Mean Time Between Failure
) was less than 3 months, so the
MTBF of a Snoopy boat will be less.<br>
I did not need to draw a reliability
diagram to see that. <br>
<br>
If the servo fails, the boat will
drift, but hopefully we can track
it.<br>
If you look at the tracks on all
attempts on Microtransat, very few
had their autopilot working for more
than a day or two.<br>
This is easy to see with Snoopy's
SPOT tracking: no 24 hour
(Microtransat) delay, when the
autopilot steering fails<br>
- by comparing the track with the
known drift near there due to wind
and tide.<br>
<br>
BUT, my poor build quality over the
years, even using good products and
materials, is the cause of almost
all our Team-Joker failures.<br>
Roy knows better than anyone how I
have often had poorly soldered
joints in the power wiring.<br>
Over the years, particularly during
24/7 testing on Bray Lake,
everything has failed at some time.<br>
e.g. I now use a Z-bend of steel*
wire as the push rod from servo to
rudder linkage.<br>
We have even had standard servo
welded cleats fail after many weeks
of use.<br>
* I must now find stainless steel
wire so it is not magnetic, but any
resulting compass error seems small
in Boat11.<br>
<br>
In my career I have always favoured
"BUY over BUILD".<br>
Few hobbyists who choose to BUILD (
sometimes re-invent the wheel )
bring testing of reliability into
their plans. It takes time !<br>
<br>
I have all the servos ( mostly that
AS-17 ) that have failed, in case
anyone wants to strip them down and
examine them. Nobody has :-)<br>
<br>
One of my Snoopy blogs (somewhere)
has the detail of one that looked -
from it's spec - as if it would be
better - it was not, but worse.<br>
<br>
It's the old story in engineering:
having to prioritise what you do, if
you want to meet a timeframe. e.g.
Boat11 ready in late summer.<br>
Great if I had a large team of
engineers, working 40 hours / week
on various project tasks - but I
don't. Those were the days :-)<br>
<br>
Robin<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk"
target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 28/04/2017
01:13, Chris Diacov wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext">Hello
Duncan,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext">I’d
be interested to hear more about
the dual servo idea– how do you
plan to engage / disengage the
idle (back-up) servo? Clutch?
Other mechanism?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext">On
the original question: here are
a couple more options for
unloading / protecting the
rudder servos:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"
style="margin-left:.5in"> 1.<span
style="font-size:7.0pt">
</span>Elastic double-side
linkage. Dampens shocks from
accidental impacts, provides
gradual ramp up of
counter-torque. On the other
hand, difficult to calibrate,
can add a significant amount of
error / deviation and
potentially flutter;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"
style="margin-left:.5in"> 2.<span
style="font-size:7.0pt">
</span>Eccentric pulleys that
push a tiller. The benefit comes
from translating a portion the
back force to normal
(compression) force on the edge
of the pulley, thus decreasing
the amount of counter-torque the
servo has to fight (at the cost
of increased radial load on the
bushings/bearings).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext">At
the end of the day, I think the
added complexity and potential
for failure outweighed any
benefits. Balanced rudder and an
oversized metal gear servo would
still be your best bet. Maybe
add a simple in-line damper in
your linkage to prevent impact
damage (assuming the rudder and
shaft survived). Having 2
independent rudders each with
their own servo may give you
extra chance of survival. Until
both of them fail and get stuck
at Right Full :) <o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext">--<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext">Chris,
Project Pilotfish<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.projectpilotfish.com"
target="_blank">http://www.projectpilotfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
name="m_4017223237028887647_m_2432082220735699"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Duncan Thomas [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dun...@gm..."
target="_blank">mailto:dun...@gm...</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April
27, 2017 12:45 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
27 Apr 2017 7:40 pm,
"Andrej Osusky" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:and...@gm..."
target="_blank">and...@gm...</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="background:white">What</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;background:white">
limits the life
expectancy?
(Gearbox? Brushless
motor? Bearings?
Encoder? ...)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">While
I've no evidence for it yet,
I suspect that the rudder
servo experiences far more
back force than most servo
applications, and so most
basic commercial servos
won't last well. I plan on
looking at some of the open
source servo controllers, so
that I can add code to
detect when the servo is
trying to fight too much
load, and just let it flap
for a while under that
circumstance (while logging
the event). Basically, if it
is driving the motor hard
but losing, then stop trying
for a while, but let the
rest of the system know. The
same eventing system can
also detect servo failure,
so you could potentially fit
two servos, with the backup
servo free rotating until
needed. That wouldn't help
if the first servo stuffed a
mechanical failure that
caused it to jamb, but I've
not yet seen that as a
failure mode in practice.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://sdm.link/slashdot" target="_blank">http://sdm.link/slashdot</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Microtransat-general mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Mic...@li..." target="_blank">Mic...@li...</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community
on one of the world's most engaging
tech sites, Slashdot.org! <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://sdm.link/slashdot"
target="_blank">http://sdm.link/slashdot</a>
_______________________________________________ Microtransat-general
mailing list <a
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href="mailto:Mic...@li..."
target="_blank">Mic...@li...</a>
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href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general"
target="_blank">
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<pre>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://sdm.link/slashdot" target="_blank">http://sdm.link/slashdot</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Microtransat-general mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Mic...@li..." target="_blank">Mic...@li...</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general" target="_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://sdm.link/slashdot" target="_blank">http://sdm.link/slashdot</a>
_______________________________________________
Microtransat-general mailing list <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Mic...@li...">Mic...@li...</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general"
target="_blank">
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<pre>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://sdm.link/slashdot">http://sdm.link/slashdot</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Microtransat-general mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Mic...@li...">Mic...@li...</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sdm.link/slashdot">http://sdm.link/slashdot</a></pre>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Microtransat-general mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Mic...@li...">Mic...@li...</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sdm.link/slashdot">http://sdm.link/slashdot</a></pre>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Microtransat-general mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Mic...@li...">Mic...@li...</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>
|
|
From: Robin L. <gp...@co...> - 2017-04-29 15:09:16
|
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Hi Roger. No harm in this being a public reply, since it was a
public question - how could I refuse ?<br>
We are just down the road from each other, so let's talk direct.<br>
Maybe you can join us here on Tuesday ? Pub grub at my expense then
probably Bray Lake ?<br>
Best continue by direct email - before someone makes a higher bid
:-)<br>
Robin<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.gpss.co.uk">www.gpss.co.uk</a><br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 29/04/2017 15:56, Roger Llewellyn
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:HE1...@HE..."
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">HI Robin,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">As you know I have been quiet for the last year
and my Microtransat work has slipped badly.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">It is a pity but I just find other stuff keeps
getting in the way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">I have the 2 identical hulls and a mould for
the boat you test sailed with me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">Do you want them ? free of course.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">If not I will offer them to the wider
community.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">Hope things are well with you<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB">Regards Roger<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
Robin Lovelock [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gp...@co...">mailto:gp...@co...</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 29, 2017 8:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mic...@li...">mic...@li...</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Microtransat] servo life expectancy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Thanks Paul.
Yes, that's also peanuts to buy:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=servo+hs5646wp">https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=servo+hs5646wp</a><br>
So, anyone seriously interested in boat reliability could
easily have several running of a suitable tester,<br>
that might simply be a spare autopilot. Remember that the one
that failed was not loaded.<br>
<br>
I've just tweaked the "Snoopy" and "Blog6" pages to reflect
that the Hybrid autopilot software should now be OK.<br>
I may put several of the servos we use on test soon (
typically 10 USD each ) with the new autopilot testing them,<br>
because the pattern of rudder movement with compass steering
is different from the "GPS-Only" logic,<br>
which now kicks in if the compass fails, or you run it on an
autopilot with no compass, but just the GPS.<br>
<br>
Robin<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.gpss.co.uk">www.gpss.co.uk</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 29/04/2017 00:14, Paul Miller wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi
Robin,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Different
servos. The 5646 has about three times the capacity of
the 5086.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">All the best,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Paul<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 4:50 PM,
Robin Lovelock <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gp...@co..." target="_blank">gp...@co...</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi
All. Here is a section from one of Snoopy's Blog
pages from 2015.
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk/rbblogx.htm"
target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk/rbblogx.htm</a> -
don't waste your time looking through it all :-)<br>
It seems Cezar in Romania suggested this servo. The
important thing is to test at least one example of a
product in realistic use.<br>
Easiest done by programming something that will
provide the same pattern of movement, over what will
be months.<br>
Connect several of them in parallel if you want to
be more certain of the result. Then leave it running
in the "lab" until some fail.<br>
Don't expect too much: these days what has the same
case and label may not be the same product ;-)<br>
<br>
Here's that old Blogx material, dating from 2015
below. Current "work" is in Blog6 on
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk/rbblog6.htm"
target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk/rbblog6.htm</a><br>
<br>
To go "off topic". I'll happily use a Forum, but I
would not want Colin to dilute his excellent support
to Microtransat.<br>
If someone wants to set up a wider robot forum, they
can. I like the scope of Microtransat as it is.<br>
It's all to easy to spend time on challenges that
are easy: Microtransat is not - for those
"competing" ;-)<br>
<br>
Robin<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk" target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk</a><b><o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f">
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<o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t" />
</v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_s1026" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="HS5086 failed after ~ 22 days x 2.5 = ~ 2 months Snoopy use." style='position:absolute;margin-left:98.8pt;margin-top:0;width:150pt;height:150pt;z-index:251658240;mso-wrap-distance-left:0;mso-wrap-distance-top:0;mso-wrap-distance-right:0;mso-wrap-distance-bottom:0;mso-position-horizontal:right;mso-position-horizontal-relative:text;mso-position-vertical-relative:line' o:allowoverlap="f">
<v:imagedata src="mailbox:///C:/Users/ROBIN/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/dcedzzbq.default/Mail/pop.aol.com/Inbox?number=8&header=quotebody&part=1.1.2&filename=image001.gif" o:title="part5.23B98436.7EE1B6F9@compuserve" />
<w:wrap type="square"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><img
style="width:2.0833in;height:2.0833in"
src="cid:par...@co..."
alt="HS5086 failed after ~ 22 days x 2.5 = ~ 2
months Snoopy use." v:shapes="_x0000_s1026"
height="200" align="right" width="200"><!--[endif]--><b><i>Thursday
26th March:<span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span></i>Don't
feel bad, Cesar in Romania, but your suggestion of
trying the HS5086 servo did us a big favour: it
reinforced the importance of testing a product
before changing the design, based on what is seen
on paper. It will also make us look more
seriously, in the long term, into a vane-rudder
clutch based autopilot: but that may take years
before someone designs, tests, AND produces the
right product. See when we put this product under
2.5x accelerated 24/7 test above, on Wednesday 4th
March. At about 8pm this evening the house stank
of something burning: it still stinks now, after
having the patio door open 2 hours. I calculate
this failure, after 22 days, equates to about 2
months of typical Snoopy autopilot use. i.e. not
reliable enough for a trans-Atlantic crossing,
where each critical element should have nearer 12
months or more as a MTBF (Mean Time Between
Failures). I will be happy to connect any servo
supplied to me into the same test rig. The trusty
Acoms servo is still running: we will see when
that fails. The earlier failure, in the Blog
above, gave the same symptoms. See those scorch
marks on the paper it was sat on, and is now stuck
on. It's a good job it didn't start a house fire !<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><b>Today I also got a small mains 5v supply from
Maplins, so we could put a complete autopilot here
under 24/7 test, looking for a "frozen autopilot
failure". The Acoms servo will probably be moved
across, to join the autopilot Picaxe 08M2
computer, BR355 GPS, and Text-To-Speech, that
tells us that it is working correcting, giving
guidance to Bray Lake, as in our "Pub Tests".<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1027" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="Two servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec HS-5086WP" style='position:absolute;margin-left:30.55pt;margin-top:0;width:81.75pt;height:75pt;z-index:251659264;mso-wrap-distance-left:0;mso-wrap-distance-top:0;mso-wrap-distance-right:0;mso-wrap-distance-bottom:0;mso-position-horizontal:right;mso-position-horizontal-relative:text;mso-position-vertical-relative:line' o:allowoverlap="f">
<v:imagedata src="mailbox:///C:/Users/ROBIN/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/dcedzzbq.default/Mail/pop.aol.com/Inbox?number=8&header=quotebody&part=1.1.4&filename=image003.gif" o:title="part6.180F11FB.179E7EEB@compuserve" />
<w:wrap type="square"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><img
style="width:1.1354in;height:1.0416in"
src="cid:par...@co..."
alt="Two servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec HS-5086WP"
v:shapes="_x0000_s1027" height="100" align="right"
width="109"><!--[endif]--><b><i>Friday 3rd April
2015:<span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span></i>The
Spot4 tracker is STILL running off it's internal
batteries. The second Acomms AS-17 servo failed on
it's accelerated 2.5x reliability test. This new
one lasted 17 days, equivalent to only 42 days,
compared with the earlier, used one lasting about
30. Another one was started on test. This seems as
if the AS-17 product only has a MTBF in the
ballpark of 1 or 2 months: not enough for an
Atlantic crossing. We will continue with the AS17
until we find a better product - with low standimg
current. If anyone finds one, with low current
~10mA or less, they are welcome to put it in our
test rig.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><b><i>Sunday 14th June:<span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span></i>The
AS-17 servo stopped today, having been running
since 4th May (according to desk diary). i.e.
approx 6 weeks x 2.5 = 15 weeks / 3.75 months
MTBF. New As-17 would have been put on same 24/7
test, but test rig mains PSU failed. Battery tests
indicate that the servo had failed, drawing more
current (and getting hot). This had probably
overloaded the PSU.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><b><i>Friday 24th July:<span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span></i>AS-17
servo reliability test started again, at 1430,
after pouring some Halfords Cycle oil into the
lower part of the casing, in the hope that some
might reach the motor brushes. If so, this might
make things worse, causing the servo to fail
earlier. However, there is a chance that the oil
might have some beneficial effect, such as
lubrication or dissipation of heat. This was after
replacing the failed mains USB 5v supply. The new
supply caused the Picaxe/Servo to "hunt", so a 5v
NiMH battery was added in parallel. We will see
how long this servo test lasts, until something
fails !<span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<i>Saturday 25th July:<span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span></i>The
servo stopped in less than 24 hours, so it seems
the oil made it worse. It was hot, like the
others.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1028" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="Two servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec HS-5086WP" style='position:absolute;margin-left:112.3pt;margin-top:0;width:163.5pt;height:150pt;z-index:251660288;mso-wrap-distance-left:0;mso-wrap-distance-top:0;mso-wrap-distance-right:0;mso-wrap-distance-bottom:0;mso-position-horizontal:right;mso-position-horizontal-relative:text;mso-position-vertical-relative:line' o:allowoverlap="f">
<v:imagedata src="mailbox:///C:/Users/ROBIN/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/dcedzzbq.default/Mail/pop.aol.com/Inbox?number=8&header=quotebody&part=1.1.4&filename=image003.gif" o:title="part6.180F11FB.179E7EEB@compuserve" />
<w:wrap type="square"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><img
style="width:2.2708in;height:2.0833in"
src="cid:par...@co..."
alt="Two servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec HS-5086WP"
v:shapes="_x0000_s1028" height="200" align="right"
width="218"><!--[endif]--><b><i>Thursday 3rd
September 2015:</i><span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span>GOOD
NEWS ON SERVO RELIABILITY ? I'm grateful to Peter,
who recently suggested that our failures of
servos, mostly due to overheating, might be due to
our 24/7 testing of them at a higher rate of use
(2.5x?) than how the servo is normally used in the
boat.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><b>Having looked again at our test program
SERVOTST.BAS, I see that we are testing at 5x, not
2.5x. i.e. our guesstimate of the rudder servo
lasting 1 or 2 months, should be doubled. Also,
this accelerated use maybe, as Peter suggests, be
the reason for overheating, and the reliability
under normal use might be better. For those
interested in the detail: our autopilot logic
typically operates the rudder about 10 times per
minute, of which about 4 or 5 seconds it is
central, then moved to left OR right for 1 or 2
seconds. Our SERVOTST software has been operating
the servo as fast as it can: about 24x/minute,
with each operation being full left AND full
right. Hence my realisation that this is 5x rather
than 2.5x normal use. ALSO, under typical use, the
rudder will only be moved a small ammount,
especially if the boat is going roughly in the
correct direction. So this full movement in
SERVOTST is a more demanding test.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><b>A new test program SERVOT2.BAS was made that
repeats a more realistic pattern of 4 secs centre,
2 secs full left, 4 secs centre, 2 secs full
right, etc. Note that the new test still uses full
throw left or right. The test rig was started at
1000 today, with two servos connected in parallel:
our trusty Acoms AS-17, and the Hitec HS5086. The
bad news is that this more realistic testing will
take longer to show results: i.e. it will not be
until we are well into 2016, that we will see if
the reliability is better than we have been
calculating ! :-)<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p><b><i>27 December 2015:</i>SERVO FAILS ! The Acoms
AS1-17 servo failed, in a hot condition yesterday.
We can do the arithmetic in slower time :-)<span
class="m4017223237028887647apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Meanwhile Snoopy's boat10 remains ready for the
next Atlantic Attempt, probably in early 2016. It
has a new AS-17 servo.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 28/04/2017 21:03, Paul
Miller wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Just a small bit of data
to answer the question about rudder servo
reliability. We have been using the HiTec
HS5646WP on our MaxiMOOPs and in roughly
1500 NM of sailing have had one failure over
four boats. The longest one sailed was about
three weeks and 500 NM before it was
hijacked by a fishing boat. The rudder servo
(and everything else) worked fine but we
swapped them out for the next try just to be
safe and they are reasonably cheap. The one
that failed may have been because it was a
keel attached rudder, which has a lot more
torque on it compared to a spade rudder, and
the rudder showed signs of damage.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at
1:44 AM, Robin Lovelock <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gp...@co..."
target="_blank">gp...@co...</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi Folks.
I'm up early, just having added a
significant update to the "Snoopy"
page Latest News on
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm"
target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm</a>
<br>
<br>
I saw the discussion about servos,
discussed in emails with Andy and
others, and have used some below ....<br>
<br>
... I should have said earlier that
the rudder servo is the weak link in
Snoopy's total boat systems.<br>
<br>
I did 24/7 testing of Acoms AS-17
servos at home, for periods lasting
typically up to 4 months.<br>
The MTBF ( Mean Time Between Failure )
was less than 3 months, so the MTBF of
a Snoopy boat will be less.<br>
I did not need to draw a reliability
diagram to see that. <br>
<br>
If the servo fails, the boat will
drift, but hopefully we can track it.<br>
If you look at the tracks on all
attempts on Microtransat, very few had
their autopilot working for more than
a day or two.<br>
This is easy to see with Snoopy's SPOT
tracking: no 24 hour (Microtransat)
delay, when the autopilot steering
fails<br>
- by comparing the track with the
known drift near there due to wind and
tide.<br>
<br>
BUT, my poor build quality over the
years, even using good products and
materials, is the cause of almost all
our Team-Joker failures.<br>
Roy knows better than anyone how I
have often had poorly soldered joints
in the power wiring.<br>
Over the years, particularly during
24/7 testing on Bray Lake, everything
has failed at some time.<br>
e.g. I now use a Z-bend of steel* wire
as the push rod from servo to rudder
linkage.<br>
We have even had standard servo welded
cleats fail after many weeks of use.<br>
* I must now find stainless steel wire
so it is not magnetic, but any
resulting compass error seems small in
Boat11.<br>
<br>
In my career I have always favoured
"BUY over BUILD".<br>
Few hobbyists who choose to BUILD (
sometimes re-invent the wheel ) bring
testing of reliability into their
plans. It takes time !<br>
<br>
I have all the servos ( mostly that
AS-17 ) that have failed, in case
anyone wants to strip them down and
examine them. Nobody has :-)<br>
<br>
One of my Snoopy blogs (somewhere) has
the detail of one that looked - from
it's spec - as if it would be better -
it was not, but worse.<br>
<br>
It's the old story in engineering:
having to prioritise what you do, if
you want to meet a timeframe. e.g.
Boat11 ready in late summer.<br>
Great if I had a large team of
engineers, working 40 hours / week on
various project tasks - but I don't.
Those were the days :-)<br>
<br>
Robin<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk"
target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 28/04/2017
01:13, Chris Diacov wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext">Hello
Duncan,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext">I’d
be interested to hear more about
the dual servo idea– how do you
plan to engage / disengage the
idle (back-up) servo? Clutch?
Other mechanism?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext">On
the original question: here are a
couple more options for unloading
/ protecting the rudder servos:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"
style="margin-left:.5in">
1.<span style="font-size:7.0pt">
</span>Elastic double-side
linkage. Dampens shocks from
accidental impacts, provides
gradual ramp up of counter-torque.
On the other hand, difficult to
calibrate, can add a significant
amount of error / deviation and
potentially flutter;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"
style="margin-left:.5in">
2.<span style="font-size:7.0pt">
</span>Eccentric pulleys that push
a tiller. The benefit comes from
translating a portion the back
force to normal (compression)
force on the edge of the pulley,
thus decreasing the amount of
counter-torque the servo has to
fight (at the cost of increased
radial load on the
bushings/bearings).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext">At
the end of the day, I think the
added complexity and potential for
failure outweighed any benefits.
Balanced rudder and an oversized
metal gear servo would still be
your best bet. Maybe add a simple
in-line damper in your linkage to
prevent impact damage (assuming
the rudder and shaft survived).
Having 2 independent rudders each
with their own servo may give you
extra chance of survival. Until
both of them fail and get stuck at
Right Full :)
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext">--<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext">Chris,
Project Pilotfish<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="m4017223237028887647m243208222073569957msoplaintext"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.projectpilotfish.com"
target="_blank">http://www.projectpilotfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
name="m_4017223237028887647_m_2432082220735699"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Duncan Thomas [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dun...@gm..."
target="_blank">mailto:dun...@gm...</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 27,
2017 12:45 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
27 Apr 2017 7:40 pm, "Andrej
Osusky" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:and...@gm..."
target="_blank">and...@gm...</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="background:white">What</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;background:white">
limits the life
expectancy? (Gearbox?
Brushless motor?
Bearings? Encoder?
...)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">While
I've no evidence for it yet, I
suspect that the rudder servo
experiences far more back
force than most servo
applications, and so most
basic commercial servos won't
last well. I plan on looking
at some of the open source
servo controllers, so that I
can add code to detect when
the servo is trying to fight
too much load, and just let it
flap for a while under that
circumstance (while logging
the event). Basically, if it
is driving the motor hard but
losing, then stop trying for a
while, but let the rest of the
system know. The same eventing
system can also detect servo
failure, so you could
potentially fit two servos,
with the backup servo free
rotating until needed. That
wouldn't help if the first
servo stuffed a mechanical
failure that caused it to
jamb, but I've not yet seen
that as a failure mode in
practice.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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|
|
From: Roger L. <rog...@ho...> - 2017-04-29 14:56:37
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HI Robin, As you know I have been quiet for the last year and my Microtransat work has slipped badly. It is a pity but I just find other stuff keeps getting in the way. I have the 2 identical hulls and a mould for the boat you test sailed with me. Do you want them ? free of course. If not I will offer them to the wider community. Hope things are well with you Regards Roger From: Robin Lovelock [mailto:gp...@co...] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 8:13 AM To: mic...@li... Subject: Re: [Microtransat] servo life expectancy Thanks Paul. Yes, that's also peanuts to buy: https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=servo+hs5646wp So, anyone seriously interested in boat reliability could easily have several running of a suitable tester, that might simply be a spare autopilot. Remember that the one that failed was not loaded. I've just tweaked the "Snoopy" and "Blog6" pages to reflect that the Hybrid autopilot software should now be OK. I may put several of the servos we use on test soon ( typically 10 USD each ) with the new autopilot testing them, because the pattern of rudder movement with compass steering is different from the "GPS-Only" logic, which now kicks in if the compass fails, or you run it on an autopilot with no compass, but just the GPS. Robin www.gpss.co.uk<http://www.gpss.co.uk> On 29/04/2017 00:14, Paul Miller wrote: Hi Robin, Different servos. The 5646 has about three times the capacity of the 5086. All the best, Paul On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Robin Lovelock <gp...@co...<mailto:gp...@co...>> wrote: Hi All. Here is a section from one of Snoopy's Blog pages from 2015. www.gpss.co.uk/rbblogx.htm<http://www.gpss.co.uk/rbblogx.htm> - don't waste your time looking through it all :-) It seems Cezar in Romania suggested this servo. The important thing is to test at least one example of a product in realistic use. Easiest done by programming something that will provide the same pattern of movement, over what will be months. Connect several of them in parallel if you want to be more certain of the result. Then leave it running in the "lab" until some fail. Don't expect too much: these days what has the same case and label may not be the same product ;-) Here's that old Blogx material, dating from 2015 below. Current "work" is in Blog6 on www.gpss.co.uk/rbblog6.htm<http://www.gpss.co.uk/rbblog6.htm> To go "off topic". I'll happily use a Forum, but I would not want Colin to dilute his excellent support to Microtransat. If someone wants to set up a wider robot forum, they can. I like the scope of Microtransat as it is. It's all to easy to spend time on challenges that are easy: Microtransat is not - for those "competing" ;-) Robin www.gpss.co.uk<http://www.gpss.co.uk> [HS5086 failed after ~ 22 days x 2.5 = ~ 2 months Snoopy use.]Thursday 26th March: Don't feel bad, Cesar in Romania, but your suggestion of trying the HS5086 servo did us a big favour: it reinforced the importance of testing a product before changing the design, based on what is seen on paper. It will also make us look more seriously, in the long term, into a vane-rudder clutch based autopilot: but that may take years before someone designs, tests, AND produces the right product. See when we put this product under 2.5x accelerated 24/7 test above, on Wednesday 4th March. At about 8pm this evening the house stank of something burning: it still stinks now, after having the patio door open 2 hours. I calculate this failure, after 22 days, equates to about 2 months of typical Snoopy autopilot use. i.e. not reliable enough for a trans-Atlantic crossing, where each critical element should have nearer 12 months or more as a MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures). I will be happy to connect any servo supplied to me into the same test rig. The trusty Acoms servo is still running: we will see when that fails. The earlier failure, in the Blog above, gave the same symptoms. See those scorch marks on the paper it was sat on, and is now stuck on. It's a good job it didn't start a house fire ! Today I also got a small mains 5v supply from Maplins, so we could put a complete autopilot here under 24/7 test, looking for a "frozen autopilot failure". The Acoms servo will probably be moved across, to join the autopilot Picaxe 08M2 computer, BR355 GPS, and Text-To-Speech, that tells us that it is working correcting, giving guidance to Bray Lake, as in our "Pub Tests". [Two servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec HS-5086WP]Friday 3rd April 2015: The Spot4 tracker is STILL running off it's internal batteries. The second Acomms AS-17 servo failed on it's accelerated 2.5x reliability test. This new one lasted 17 days, equivalent to only 42 days, compared with the earlier, used one lasting about 30. Another one was started on test. This seems as if the AS-17 product only has a MTBF in the ballpark of 1 or 2 months: not enough for an Atlantic crossing. We will continue with the AS17 until we find a better product - with low standimg current. If anyone finds one, with low current ~10mA or less, they are welcome to put it in our test rig. Sunday 14th June: The AS-17 servo stopped today, having been running since 4th May (according to desk diary). i.e. approx 6 weeks x 2.5 = 15 weeks / 3.75 months MTBF. New As-17 would have been put on same 24/7 test, but test rig mains PSU failed. Battery tests indicate that the servo had failed, drawing more current (and getting hot). This had probably overloaded the PSU. Friday 24th July: AS-17 servo reliability test started again, at 1430, after pouring some Halfords Cycle oil into the lower part of the casing, in the hope that some might reach the motor brushes. If so, this might make things worse, causing the servo to fail earlier. However, there is a chance that the oil might have some beneficial effect, such as lubrication or dissipation of heat. This was after replacing the failed mains USB 5v supply. The new supply caused the Picaxe/Servo to "hunt", so a 5v NiMH battery was added in parallel. We will see how long this servo test lasts, until something fails ! Saturday 25th July: The servo stopped in less than 24 hours, so it seems the oil made it worse. It was hot, like the others. [Two servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec HS-5086WP]Thursday 3rd September 2015: GOOD NEWS ON SERVO RELIABILITY ? I'm grateful to Peter, who recently suggested that our failures of servos, mostly due to overheating, might be due to our 24/7 testing of them at a higher rate of use (2.5x?) than how the servo is normally used in the boat. Having looked again at our test program SERVOTST.BAS, I see that we are testing at 5x, not 2.5x. i.e. our guesstimate of the rudder servo lasting 1 or 2 months, should be doubled. Also, this accelerated use maybe, as Peter suggests, be the reason for overheating, and the reliability under normal use might be better. For those interested in the detail: our autopilot logic typically operates the rudder about 10 times per minute, of which about 4 or 5 seconds it is central, then moved to left OR right for 1 or 2 seconds. Our SERVOTST software has been operating the servo as fast as it can: about 24x/minute, with each operation being full left AND full right. Hence my realisation that this is 5x rather than 2.5x normal use. ALSO, under typical use, the rudder will only be moved a small ammount, especially if the boat is going roughly in the correct direction. So this full movement in SERVOTST is a more demanding test. A new test program SERVOT2.BAS was made that repeats a more realistic pattern of 4 secs centre, 2 secs full left, 4 secs centre, 2 secs full right, etc. Note that the new test still uses full throw left or right. The test rig was started at 1000 today, with two servos connected in parallel: our trusty Acoms AS-17, and the Hitec HS5086. The bad news is that this more realistic testing will take longer to show results: i.e. it will not be until we are well into 2016, that we will see if the reliability is better than we have been calculating ! :-) 27 December 2015:SERVO FAILS ! The Acoms AS1-17 servo failed, in a hot condition yesterday. We can do the arithmetic in slower time :-) Meanwhile Snoopy's boat10 remains ready for the next Atlantic Attempt, probably in early 2016. It has a new AS-17 servo. On 28/04/2017 21:03, Paul Miller wrote: Just a small bit of data to answer the question about rudder servo reliability. We have been using the HiTec HS5646WP on our MaxiMOOPs and in roughly 1500 NM of sailing have had one failure over four boats. The longest one sailed was about three weeks and 500 NM before it was hijacked by a fishing boat. The rudder servo (and everything else) worked fine but we swapped them out for the next try just to be safe and they are reasonably cheap. The one that failed may have been because it was a keel attached rudder, which has a lot more torque on it compared to a spade rudder, and the rudder showed signs of damage. On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 1:44 AM, Robin Lovelock <gp...@co...<mailto:gp...@co...>> wrote: Hi Folks. I'm up early, just having added a significant update to the "Snoopy" page Latest News on www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm<http://www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm> I saw the discussion about servos, discussed in emails with Andy and others, and have used some below .... ... I should have said earlier that the rudder servo is the weak link in Snoopy's total boat systems. I did 24/7 testing of Acoms AS-17 servos at home, for periods lasting typically up to 4 months. The MTBF ( Mean Time Between Failure ) was less than 3 months, so the MTBF of a Snoopy boat will be less. I did not need to draw a reliability diagram to see that. If the servo fails, the boat will drift, but hopefully we can track it. If you look at the tracks on all attempts on Microtransat, very few had their autopilot working for more than a day or two. This is easy to see with Snoopy's SPOT tracking: no 24 hour (Microtransat) delay, when the autopilot steering fails - by comparing the track with the known drift near there due to wind and tide. BUT, my poor build quality over the years, even using good products and materials, is the cause of almost all our Team-Joker failures. Roy knows better than anyone how I have often had poorly soldered joints in the power wiring. Over the years, particularly during 24/7 testing on Bray Lake, everything has failed at some time. e.g. I now use a Z-bend of steel* wire as the push rod from servo to rudder linkage. We have even had standard servo welded cleats fail after many weeks of use. * I must now find stainless steel wire so it is not magnetic, but any resulting compass error seems small in Boat11. In my career I have always favoured "BUY over BUILD". Few hobbyists who choose to BUILD ( sometimes re-invent the wheel ) bring testing of reliability into their plans. It takes time ! I have all the servos ( mostly that AS-17 ) that have failed, in case anyone wants to strip them down and examine them. Nobody has :-) One of my Snoopy blogs (somewhere) has the detail of one that looked - from it's spec - as if it would be better - it was not, but worse. It's the old story in engineering: having to prioritise what you do, if you want to meet a timeframe. e.g. Boat11 ready in late summer. Great if I had a large team of engineers, working 40 hours / week on various project tasks - but I don't. Those were the days :-) Robin www.gpss.co.uk<http://www.gpss.co.uk> On 28/04/2017 01:13, Chris Diacov wrote: Hello Duncan, I'd be interested to hear more about the dual servo idea- how do you plan to engage / disengage the idle (back-up) servo? Clutch? Other mechanism? On the original question: here are a couple more options for unloading / protecting the rudder servos: 1. Elastic double-side linkage. Dampens shocks from accidental impacts, provides gradual ramp up of counter-torque. On the other hand, difficult to calibrate, can add a significant amount of error / deviation and potentially flutter; 2. Eccentric pulleys that push a tiller. The benefit comes from translating a portion the back force to normal (compression) force on the edge of the pulley, thus decreasing the amount of counter-torque the servo has to fight (at the cost of increased radial load on the bushings/bearings). At the end of the day, I think the added complexity and potential for failure outweighed any benefits. Balanced rudder and an oversized metal gear servo would still be your best bet. Maybe add a simple in-line damper in your linkage to prevent impact damage (assuming the rudder and shaft survived). Having 2 independent rudders each with their own servo may give you extra chance of survival. Until both of them fail and get stuck at Right Full :) -- Chris, Project Pilotfish http://www.projectpilotfish.com From: Duncan Thomas [mailto:dun...@gm...] Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 12:45 PM On 27 Apr 2017 7:40 pm, "Andrej Osusky" <and...@gm...<mailto:and...@gm...>> wrote: What limits the life expectancy? (Gearbox? Brushless motor? Bearings? Encoder? ...) While I've no evidence for it yet, I suspect that the rudder servo experiences far more back force than most servo applications, and so most basic commercial servos won't last well. I plan on looking at some of the open source servo controllers, so that I can add code to detect when the servo is trying to fight too much load, and just let it flap for a while under that circumstance (while logging the event). Basically, if it is driving the motor hard but losing, then stop trying for a while, but let the rest of the system know. The same eventing system can also detect servo failure, so you could potentially fit two servos, with the backup servo free rotating until needed. That wouldn't help if the first servo stuffed a mechanical failure that caused it to jamb, but I've not yet seen that as a failure mode in practice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general |
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From: Jake A. <ya...@va...> - 2017-04-29 13:49:50
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For one we were planning we figured hull penetrations were bad. So we thought worm drive with a pair of magnets grabing another pair through the hull on a matching plate on the rudder.No hull penetrations and a magnetic clutch. For bonus points put a magnetic encoder on the rudder plate so you can read the actual rudder position and see if you have lost the lock on it.
We figured if we felt like screwing around, 2 separate motor gearbox combos driving the worm with solenoids to disengage them from the worm if either of them jam.
Though it'd probably be more reliable to just use a single maxon driving the worm and not add a bunch of complexity.
Sent from my Samsung device
-------- Original message --------
From: Dermot Tynan <dt...@ka...>
Date: 29/04/2017 10:23 PM (GMT+10:00)
To: mic...@li...
Subject: Re: [Microtransat] servo life expectancy
Coincidentally, I uploaded a video of the rudder mechanism on my test hull, earlier this week. It’s here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c7Lf-GDQk0
I chose a stepper motor and 3D-printed gearing for this boat. The up-side is the stepper controller can current-limit which means if something hits the rudder, it slips instead of shearing gears (or shaft attachments). The down-side is it constantly consumes current, unlike a servo arrangement. For the MegaMOOP, I’m using a gear and worm-screw arrangement, which will consume less power, but doesn’t have the electric slip-clutch.
Paul, the MegaMOOP is coming along, slowly. I hope to have it skinned in the next week or two if I get a chance.
In terms of the discussion around a forum versus a mailing list, etc, I have no complaints with the current system. Postings are sporadic but that’s OK too. I’m a member of a separate group and Google Groups sends me a summary email rather than the actual postings. I’m sure that’s a configuration option, but I can’t find it. The summary is annoying because I can read an email on my phone even out of coverage, but emails which just show the first sentence and a link need Internet access, and never seem to be as readable on a browser.
- Der
—
Dermot Tynan
dt...@ka...
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From: Dermot T. <dt...@ka...> - 2017-04-29 12:23:35
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Coincidentally, I uploaded a video of the rudder mechanism on my test hull, earlier this week. It’s here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c7Lf-GDQk0 I chose a stepper motor and 3D-printed gearing for this boat. The up-side is the stepper controller can current-limit which means if something hits the rudder, it slips instead of shearing gears (or shaft attachments). The down-side is it constantly consumes current, unlike a servo arrangement. For the MegaMOOP, I’m using a gear and worm-screw arrangement, which will consume less power, but doesn’t have the electric slip-clutch. Paul, the MegaMOOP is coming along, slowly. I hope to have it skinned in the next week or two if I get a chance. In terms of the discussion around a forum versus a mailing list, etc, I have no complaints with the current system. Postings are sporadic but that’s OK too. I’m a member of a separate group and Google Groups sends me a summary email rather than the actual postings. I’m sure that’s a configuration option, but I can’t find it. The summary is annoying because I can read an email on my phone even out of coverage, but emails which just show the first sentence and a link need Internet access, and never seem to be as readable on a browser. - Der — Dermot Tynan dt...@ka... |
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From: Dick B. <dic...@ho...> - 2017-04-29 09:57:15
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That's a useful summary of sources but a forum would be good. Yesterday I signed in to a Microtransat Google Group that Colin Sauze seemed to be testing. Not sure what his plans are for that. Currently I'm more of a follower than a contributor. Cheers, Dick. Sent from my iPhone On 29 Apr 2017, at 10:26, Andrej Osusky <and...@gm...<mailto:and...@gm...>> wrote: The biggest sites about stuff like this are diydrones and hackaday. I frequently go there to read posts or discuss. You will find almost all hobby robotics projects there including a few autonomous boats. It's huge, so maybe it's not easy to find what you are looking for. Check out the upper menu on diydrones, e.g. ArduRover -> Arduboat. I wrote a blog in 2016 and got a lot of useful feedback in the comments: http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/autonomous-boat-to-cross-the-atlantic-ocean If I want to discuss boat design, I go to boatdesign.net<http://boatdesign.net> It is full of knowledgeable people that are building boats from fiberglass, wood, composites... And if I want to see how it's being done, I go to Youtube :) If I want to know more about batteries, power systems, ... I go to rcgroups. Each forum focuses on a different subject and building an autonomous boat to cross the ocean is definitely multidisciplinary. However, I think it would be beneficial to have a forum on microtransat.org<http://microtransat.org> so that people can easily find it. We can have a thread for the rules, another group of threads with live commentary for the current transatlantic attempts, another group of threads with questions, maybe Sailbot and WRSC, and of course, one off-topic thread. If it is well organized, it won't be cluttered and people would receive updates only for the threads they are subscribed to. On 28/04/17 19:32, John Lamport wrote: My intent is to have an open forum on autonomous control of both boats and rovers, not limited to MicroTransat or Sailbot. There are plenty of people out there working on these kinds of projects. Some just for the fun of it. I have done lots of searches, autonomous sailing, autonomous vehicles, autonomous control, robotic sailing and many others and have never found a single group that I can participate in. I did find the MircoTransat site and months ago added my name to the general mailing list, other than regular updates from Robin, I've never gotten another email. The other day I responded to one of Robins and now I have gotten several from several different people in the last 3 days. Was I not on the right list until I replied? No, its just been quiet the last few months. It often happens that we get several months of near silence followed by a sudden burst of activity. Also during the last 3 days all most all of the replies have been to Robins original email, with the same subject line, but we have talked about Robins test, I asked about the Pixhawk controller, overheating of a motor, rudder stabilization, and forums. Change the subject line if you change the subject! With a forum that could have been 5 separate threads with those who wanted to only responding to the subject they wanted to. Only if you don't reply to a thread on an unrelated subject. See previous point! I'm not trying to change the world or how the Microtransat group communicates, if your happy with the email list fine. The google groups migration is something i've been intending to do for a while. If for no other reason than the random delays and fairly poor spam filtering that sourceforge suffers from. Hopefully it will also satisfy more people on both sides of the forum vs mailing list debate. I've been looking for a group of like minded people who want to share what they are working on, or what their interest are, I have yet to find it, Have you looked at hackaday? Its pretty broad, but certainly encompasses your interests and is full of knowledgeable people. So I thought I could open a forum for that discussion. John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu...<mailto:joh...@mu...>, Web: http://www.munters.com FACEBOOK<http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal> | TWITTER<http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp> | YOUTUBE<http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN<http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> <mime-attachment.gif><http://www.munters.com> From: Colin Sauze <co...@ab...><mailto:co...@ab...> To: <mic...@li...><mailto:mic...@li...> Date: 04/28/2017 02:14 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. ________________________________ On 28/04/17 18:56, John Lamport wrote: I would like it open to all, not just MicroTransat or Sailbot. As you say there are plenty of others doing similar project just for the fun of it, land rovers as well. I don't mind people using the Microtransat list for anything vaguely related to sea based robotics. Although i'm sure there are other places specialising more in land based rovers if that's what you are intending to do. If we we do the Google groups is there a way for someone, outside of the group, to search the web and find the group? Can they then join? Or does someone in the group have to add them? I've just started setting up a group. You can vary these things, but for now i've set it to anyone can join and non-members can see the posts. But you have to become a member to post to it. I'll try and do a mass export/import of users this weekend, but if you want to join it now the address is https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/microtransat<https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21forum/microtransat> Colin. John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu...<mailto:joh...@mu...>, Web: http://www.munters.com<http://www.munters.com/> FACEBOOK<http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal> | TWITTER<http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp> | YOUTUBE<http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN<http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> <mime-attachment.gif><http://www.munters.com/> From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...><mailto:ncr...@gm...> To: mic...@li...<mailto:mic...@li...> Date: 04/28/2017 01:42 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. ________________________________ Google Groups might be a good compromise between email-type communication and forum-type. I just played around with it. You can designate the group as a "web forum" (instead of "email list") and it will act a bit more forum-ish. But for those who don't want to interact that way, you can receive and respond via email. It looks like you can invite people by email address, so if you can export the email list from sourceforge, you might be able to do a mass invite in one go. Perhaps categories could be created that mimic the sourceforge lists (general, rules, tracking). And, will this be only Microtransat or could we open it a bit? Would it make sense to do something like a "Robotic Sailing" group? To include Sailbot discussions? And there are lots of germane projects out there that don't compete in the microtransat that deserve attention (Seacharger, etc.) If that's out of scope, okay. But it's more of what a couple of us were interested in. Craig On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 11:53 AM, Colin Sauze <co...@ab...<mailto:co...@ab...>> wrote: On 28/04/17 16:39, John Lamport wrote: Well there does seem to be some interest in a forum of some kind. Craig Gorton and myself are looking into the different forum host that are out there. Some of them are for free, but they do put ads on the page, others charge a monthly fee. I'm OK with the ads as long as they don't get to annoying. We'll update everyone as we narrow down the options. This topic has come up many times before on here and opinion always seems to be divided roughly 50:50. The obvious solution seems to be something that can work both like a forum and a mailing list. A few years ago as an experiment the rules discussion was moved off to a Yahoo group, but Yahoo groups turned out to be terrible. The following year we tried google groups and that worked much better and seemed to satisfy the requirements. I the rules group has run for long enough to show google groups is good enough and that we should switch over. It also solves a long running issue with sourceforge where messages can sometimes take hours to appear for some people and some recipients see them much faster than others. The problem now is finding an easy way to move ~250 people from the mailing list to google groups. I'll see if I can find a way to do this at the weekend. Colin. Thanks John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu...<mailto:joh...@mu...>, Web: http://www.munters.com<http://www.munters.com/> FACEBOOK<http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal> | TWITTER<http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp> | YOUTUBE<http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN<http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> <mime-attachment.gif><http://www.munters.com/> From: "BREEN, AIDAN" <A.B...@nu...><mailto:A.B...@nu...> To: "mic...@li..."<mailto:mic...@li...> <mic...@li...><mailto:mic...@li...> Date: 04/27/2017 06:25 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. ________________________________ I'd like to throw in my 2 cents in favour of a forum. Email lists are incredibly difficult to deal with and actively prevent new people getting involved. I'm a huge fan of reddit's discussion format - it's really useful for handling the various tangents without polluting the main topic. ________________________________ From: John Lamport <joh...@mu...><mailto:joh...@mu...> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 8:10:55 PM To: mic...@li...<mailto:mic...@li...> Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. Good point about the Arduino forum, I've used that a lot and have found what I was looking for by searching a subject and finding a thread a few years old. Someone else has already invented the wheel why not see what he did. That's what I'm looking for now, I'm sure there has been many discussions about autonomous sailing but I'm not finding any of it. John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu...<mailto:joh...@mu...>, Web: http://www.munters.com<http://www.munters.com/> FACEBOOK<http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal> | TWITTER<http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp> | YOUTUBE<http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN<http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> <mime-attachment.gif><http://www.munters.com/> This e-mail is solely intended for the addressee(s) and may be of a confidential nature. If received in error, kindly notify the sender and delete the e-mail. E-mail is susceptible to data corruption, interception, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof. Any opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Munters. From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...><mailto:ncr...@gm...> To: mic...@li...<mailto:mic...@li...> Date: 04/27/2017 04:04 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum? ________________________________ I hear what you're saying, and I think there might be alternatives out there that allow you to interact with it through your inbox, maybe seamlessly. One issue I have with pure email is that someone just joining does not have the history. When I need some info on Arduino, the forums are often excellent, even though I'm looking at posts from a few years ago. Stackoverflow is like that, too, but not subject-based like I'm thinking. On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Duncan Thomas <dun...@gm...<mailto:dun...@gm...>> wrote: On 27 Apr 2017 8:30 pm, "Craig Gorton" <ncr...@gm...<mailto:ncr...@gm...>> wrote: The recent chatter on this email list is great, but all this good info is now buried in my inbox archive. ... Is there any interest in a forum? You can subscribe and get notifications of new posts, just like a mailing list, but the threads are better preserved and searchable, and also can be organized into categories. Personally I'd find that a massive decrease in usability, given my previous experience with forums. I can search my email archives much more easily and usefully than any forum search, I can read offline, I've a permanent copy of everything under my control, and I can use all of the tools I use for other mailing lists on this one too. Forums on the other hand I'd have to go to a website to read/reply, I'd lose the useful archive and the workflow is different for each different forum. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org<http://Slashdot.org>! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org<http://Slashdot.org>! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org<http://Slashdot.org>! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org<http://Slashdot.org>! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general -- Dr. Colin Sauze Data Manager The National Plant Phenomics Centre Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences Gogerddan Campus Aberystwyth University Ceredigion SY23 3EB Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org<http://Slashdot.org>! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org<http://Slashdot.org>! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org<http://Slashdot.org>! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general -- Dr. Colin Sauze Data Manager Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences Aberystwyth University, Gogerddan, Aberystwyth Ceredigion, UK, SY23 3EB Tel: +44 (0)1970 628687 Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos -------------------------------------------------------------------- Un o’r 4 prifysgol uchaf yn y DU a’r orau yng Nghymru am fodlonrwydd myfyrwyr. (Arolwg Cenedlaethol y Myfyrwyr 2016) www.aber.ac.uk Top 4 UK university and best in Wales for student satisfaction (National Student Survey 2016) www.aber.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org<http://Slashdot.org>! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org<http://Slashdot.org>! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general -- Dr. Colin Sauze Data Manager Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences Aberystwyth University, Gogerddan, Aberystwyth Ceredigion, UK, SY23 3EB Tel: +44 (0)1970 628687 Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos -------------------------------------------------------------------- Un o’r 4 prifysgol uchaf yn y DU a’r orau yng Nghymru am fodlonrwydd myfyrwyr. (Arolwg Cenedlaethol y Myfyrwyr 2016) www.aber.ac.uk<http://www.aber.ac.uk> Top 4 UK university and best in Wales for student satisfaction (National Student Survey 2016) www.aber.ac.uk<http://www.aber.ac.uk> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org<http://Slashdot.org>! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org<http://Slashdot.org>! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general |
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From: Andrej O. <and...@gm...> - 2017-04-29 09:25:24
|
The biggest sites about stuff like this are diydrones and hackaday. I frequently go there to read posts or discuss. You will find almost all hobby robotics projects there including a few autonomous boats. It's huge, so maybe it's not easy to find what you are looking for. Check out the upper menu on diydrones, e.g. ArduRover -> Arduboat. I wrote a blog in 2016 and got a lot of useful feedback in the comments: http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/autonomous-boat-to-cross-the-atlantic-ocean If I want to discuss boat design, I go to boatdesign.net It is full of knowledgeable people that are building boats from fiberglass, wood, composites... And if I want to see how it's being done, I go to Youtube :) If I want to know more about batteries, power systems, ... I go to rcgroups. Each forum focuses on a different subject and building an autonomous boat to cross the ocean is definitely multidisciplinary. However, I think it would be beneficial to have a forum on microtransat.org so that people can easily find it. We can have a thread for the rules, another group of threads with live commentary for the current transatlantic attempts, another group of threads with questions, maybe Sailbot and WRSC, and of course, one off-topic thread. If it is well organized, it won't be cluttered and people would receive updates only for the threads they are subscribed to. > > > On 28/04/17 19:32, John Lamport wrote: >> My intent is to have an open forum on autonomous control of both >> boats and rovers, not limited to MicroTransat or Sailbot. There are >> plenty of people out there working on these kinds of projects. Some >> just for the fun of it. I have done lots of searches, autonomous >> sailing, autonomous vehicles, autonomous control, robotic sailing and >> many others and have never found a single group that I can >> participate in. >> >> I did find the MircoTransat site and months ago added my name to the >> general mailing list, other than regular updates from Robin, I've >> never gotten another email. The other day I responded to one of >> Robins and now I have gotten several from several different people in >> the last 3 days. Was I not on the right list until I replied? > No, its just been quiet the last few months. It often happens that we > get several months of near silence followed by a sudden burst of > activity. > >> Also during the last 3 days all most all of the replies have been to >> Robins original email, with the same subject line, but we have talked >> about Robins test, I asked about the Pixhawk controller, overheating >> of a motor, rudder stabilization, and forums. > Change the subject line if you change the subject! > >> With a forum that could have been 5 separate threads with those who >> wanted to only responding to the subject they wanted to. > Only if you don't reply to a thread on an unrelated subject. See > previous point! > >> >> >> I'm not trying to change the world or how the Microtransat group >> communicates, if your happy with the email list fine. > The google groups migration is something i've been intending to do for > a while. If for no other reason than the random delays and fairly poor > spam filtering that sourceforge suffers from. Hopefully it will also > satisfy more people on both sides of the forum vs mailing list debate. > >> I've been looking for a group of like minded people who want to share >> what they are working on, or what their interest are, I have yet to >> find it, > Have you looked at hackaday? Its pretty broad, but certainly > encompasses your interests and is full of knowledgeable people. > >> So I thought I could open a forum for that discussion. >> >> *John Lamport* >> Controls Engineer >> Engineering >> >> *Munters Corporation * >> 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA >> Tel dir: 978-241-1196, >> >> >> >> E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com >> >> *FACEBOOK <http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal>**| TWITTER >> <http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp>| YOUTUBE >> <http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN >> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters>* >> >> *<http://www.munters.com>* >> From: Colin Sauze <co...@ab...> >> To: <mic...@li...> >> Date: 04/28/2017 02:14 PM >> Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> On 28/04/17 18:56, John Lamport wrote: >> I would like it open to all, not just MicroTransat or Sailbot. As you >> say there are plenty of others doing similar project just for the fun >> of it, land rovers as well. >> I don't mind people using the Microtransat list for anything vaguely >> related to sea based robotics. Although i'm sure there are other >> places specialising more in land based rovers if that's what you are >> intending to do. >> >> >> If we we do the Google groups is there a way for someone, outside of >> the group, to search the web and find the group? Can they then join? >> Or does someone in the group have to add them? >> I've just started setting up a group. You can vary these things, but >> for now i've set it to anyone can join and non-members can see the >> posts. But you have to become a member to post to it. >> >> I'll try and do a mass export/import of users this weekend, but if >> you want to join it now the address is >> _https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/microtransat_ >> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21forum/microtransat> >> >> Colin. >> >> >> >> * >> John Lamport* >> Controls Engineer >> Engineering >> * >> Munters Corporation * >> 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA >> Tel dir: 978-241-1196, >> >> >> >> E-mail: _john.lamport@munters.com_ <mailto:joh...@mu...>, >> Web: _http://www.munters.com_ <http://www.munters.com/> >> >> *FACEBOOK* <http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal>*| **TWITTER* >> <http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp>*| **YOUTUBE* >> <http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB>*| **LINKEDIN* >> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> >> >> >> <http://www.munters.com/> >> From: Craig Gorton _<ncr...@gm...>_ >> <mailto:ncr...@gm...> >> To: _mi...@li....net_ >> <mailto:mic...@li...> >> Date: 04/28/2017 01:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Google Groups might be a good compromise between email-type >> communication and forum-type. I just played around with it. >> >> You can designate the group as a "web forum" (instead of "email >> list") and it will act a bit more forum-ish. But for those who don't >> want to interact that way, you can receive and respond via email. >> >> It looks like you can invite people by email address, so if you can >> export the email list from sourceforge, you might be able to do a >> mass invite in one go. >> >> Perhaps categories could be created that mimic the sourceforge lists >> (general, rules, tracking). >> >> And, will this be only Microtransat or could we open it a bit? Would >> it make sense to do something like a "Robotic Sailing" group? To >> include Sailbot discussions? And there are lots of germane projects >> out there that don't compete in the microtransat that deserve >> attention (Seacharger, etc.) If that's out of scope, okay. But it's >> more of what a couple of us were interested in. >> >> Craig >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 11:53 AM, Colin Sauze <_c...@ab....uk_ >> <mailto:co...@ab...>> wrote: >> On 28/04/17 16:39, John Lamport wrote: >> Well there does seem to be some interest in a forum of some kind. >> Craig Gorton and myself are looking into the different forum host >> that are out there. Some of them are for free, but they do put ads on >> the page, others charge a monthly fee. I'm OK with the ads as long as >> they don't get to annoying. >> >> We'll update everyone as we narrow down the options. >> >> This topic has come up many times before on here and opinion always >> seems to be divided roughly 50:50. The obvious solution seems to be >> something that can work both like a forum and a mailing list. >> >> A few years ago as an experiment the rules discussion was moved off >> to a Yahoo group, but Yahoo groups turned out to be terrible. The >> following year we tried google groups and that worked much better and >> seemed to satisfy the requirements. I the rules group has run for >> long enough to show google groups is good enough and that we should >> switch over. It also solves a long running issue with sourceforge >> where messages can sometimes take hours to appear for some people and >> some recipients see them much faster than others. >> >> The problem now is finding an easy way to move ~250 people from the >> mailing list to google groups. I'll see if I can find a way to do >> this at the weekend. >> >> Colin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks* >> >> John Lamport* >> Controls Engineer >> Engineering* >> >> Munters Corporation * >> 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA >> Tel dir: 978-241-1196, >> >> >> >> E-mail: _john.lamport@munters.com_ <mailto:joh...@mu...>, >> Web: _http://www.munters.com_ <http://www.munters.com/> >> >> *_FACEBOOK_* <http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal>*| **_TWITTER_* >> <http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp>*| **_YOUTUBE_* >> <http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB>*| **_LINKEDIN_* >> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> >> >> _ >> _<http://www.munters.com/> >> From: "BREEN, AIDAN" _<A.B...@nu...>_ >> <mailto:A.B...@nu...> >> To: _"mic...@li..."_ >> <mailto:mic...@li...>_<mic...@li...>_ >> <mailto:mic...@li...> >> Date: 04/27/2017 06:25 PM >> Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> I'd like to throw in my 2 cents in favour of a forum. >> >> Email lists are incredibly difficult to deal with and actively >> prevent new people getting involved. >> >> I'm a huge fan of reddit's discussion format - it's really useful for >> handling the various tangents without polluting the main topic. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> * >> From:* John Lamport _<joh...@mu...>_ >> <mailto:joh...@mu...>* >> Sent:* Thursday, April 27, 2017 8:10:55 PM* >> To:* _mi...@li....net_ >> <mailto:mic...@li...>* >> Subject:* Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. >> >> Good point about the Arduino forum, I've used that a lot and have >> found what I was looking for by searching a subject and finding a >> thread a few years old. Someone else has already invented the wheel >> why not see what he did. >> >> That's what I'm looking for now, I'm sure there has been many >> discussions about autonomous sailing but I'm not finding any of it.* >> >> John Lamport* >> Controls Engineer >> Engineering* >> >> Munters Corporation * >> 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA >> Tel dir: 978-241-1196, >> >> >> >> E-mail: _john.lamport@munters.com_ <mailto:joh...@mu...>, >> Web: _http://www.munters.com_ <http://www.munters.com/> >> >> *_FACEBOOK_* <http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal>*| **_TWITTER_* >> <http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp>*| **_YOUTUBE_* >> <http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB>*| **_LINKEDIN_* >> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> >> >> _ >> _<http://www.munters.com/> >> This e-mail is solely intended for the addressee(s) and may be of a >> confidential nature. If received in error, kindly notify the sender >> and delete the e-mail. E-mail is susceptible to data corruption, >> interception, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we >> only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for >> any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or >> any consequences thereof. Any opinions expressed in this message are >> those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of >> Munters. >> From: Craig Gorton _<ncr...@gm...>_ >> <mailto:ncr...@gm...> >> To: _mi...@li....net_ >> <mailto:mic...@li...> >> Date: 04/27/2017 04:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum? >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> I hear what you're saying, and I think there might be alternatives >> out there that allow you to interact with it through your inbox, >> maybe seamlessly. >> >> One issue I have with pure email is that someone just joining does >> not have the history. When I need some info on Arduino, the forums >> are often excellent, even though I'm looking at posts from a few >> years ago. Stackoverflow is like that, too, but not subject-based >> like I'm thinking. >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Duncan Thomas >> <_duncan.thomas@gmail.com_ <mailto:dun...@gm...>> wrote: >> >> >> On 27 Apr 2017 8:30 pm, "Craig Gorton" <_ncraiggorton@gmail.com_ >> <mailto:ncr...@gm...>> wrote: >> The recent chatter on this email list is great, but all this good >> info is now buried in my inbox archive. >> >> ... >> >> Is there any interest in a forum? You can subscribe and get >> notifications of new posts, just like a mailing list, but the threads >> are better preserved and searchable, and also can be organized into >> categories. >> >> Personally I'd find that a massive decrease in usability, given my >> previous experience with forums. I can search my email archives much >> more easily and usefully than any forum search, I can read offline, >> I've a permanent copy of everything under my control, and I can use >> all of the tools I use for other mailing lists on this one too. >> Forums on the other hand I'd have to go to a website to read/reply, >> I'd lose the useful archive and the workflow is different for each >> different forum. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! _http://sdm.link/slashdot_ >> _______________________________________________ >> Microtransat-general mailing list_ >> __M...@li....net_ >> <mailto:Mic...@li...>_ >> __https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general_ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! >> _http://sdm.link/slashdot________________________________________________ >> Microtransat-general mailing list_ >> __M...@li....net_ >> <mailto:Mic...@li...>_ >> __https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general_ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! >> _http://sdm.link/slashdot________________________________________________ >> Microtransat-general mailing list_ >> __M...@li....net_ >> <mailto:Mic...@li...>_ >> __https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general_ >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! _http://sdm.link/slashdot_ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Microtransat-general mailing list_ >> __M...@li....net_ >> <mailto:Mic...@li...>_ >> __https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general_ >> >> -- >> Dr. Colin Sauze >> Data Manager >> The National Plant Phenomics Centre >> Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences >> Gogerddan Campus >> Aberystwyth University >> Ceredigion >> SY23 3EB >> >> Webpage: _http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos_ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! _http://sdm.link/slashdot_ >> _______________________________________________ >> Microtransat-general mailing list_ >> __M...@li....net_ >> <mailto:Mic...@li...>_ >> __https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general_ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! >> _http://sdm.link/slashdot________________________________________________ >> Microtransat-general mailing list_ >> __M...@li....net_ >> <mailto:Mic...@li...>_ >> __https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general_ >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! _http://sdm.link/slashdot_ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Microtransat-general mailing list >> _Mi...@li....net_ >> <mailto:Mic...@li...> >> _https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general_ >> >> >> -- >> Dr. Colin Sauze >> Data Manager >> Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences >> Aberystwyth University, >> Gogerddan, Aberystwyth >> Ceredigion, UK, SY23 3EB >> >> Tel: +44 (0)1970 628687 >> >> Webpage: _http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos_ >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Un o’r 4 prifysgol uchaf yn y DU a’r orau yng Nghymru am fodlonrwydd >> myfyrwyr. >> (Arolwg Cenedlaethol y Myfyrwyr 2016) >> www.aber.ac.uk >> >> Top 4 UK university and best in Wales for student satisfaction >> (National Student Survey 2016) >> www.aber.ac.uk------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! >> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________ >> Microtransat-general mailing list >> Mic...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!http://sdm.link/slashdot >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Microtransat-general mailing list >> Mic...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > -- > Dr. Colin Sauze > Data Manager > Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences > Aberystwyth University, > Gogerddan, Aberystwyth > Ceredigion, UK, SY23 3EB > > Tel: +44 (0)1970 628687 > > Webpage:http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Un o’r 4 prifysgol uchaf yn y DU a’r orau yng Nghymru am fodlonrwydd > myfyrwyr. > (Arolwg Cenedlaethol y Myfyrwyr 2016) > www.aber.ac.uk > > Top 4 UK university and best in Wales for student satisfaction > (National Student Survey 2016) > www.aber.ac.uk > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general |
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From: Robin L. <gp...@co...> - 2017-04-29 07:13:05
|
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Thanks Paul. Yes, that's also peanuts to buy:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=servo+hs5646wp">https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=servo+hs5646wp</a><br>
So, anyone seriously interested in boat reliability could easily
have several running of a suitable tester,<br>
that might simply be a spare autopilot. Remember that the one that
failed was not loaded.<br>
<br>
I've just tweaked the "Snoopy" and "Blog6" pages to reflect that the
Hybrid autopilot software should now be OK.<br>
I may put several of the servos we use on test soon ( typically 10
USD each ) with the new autopilot testing them,<br>
because the pattern of rudder movement with compass steering is
different from the "GPS-Only" logic,<br>
which now kicks in if the compass fails, or you run it on an
autopilot with no compass, but just the GPS.<br>
<br>
Robin<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.gpss.co.uk">www.gpss.co.uk</a><br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 29/04/2017 00:14, Paul Miller wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAD...@ma..."
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi Robin,<br>
<br>
</div>
Different servos. The 5646 has about three times the
capacity of the 5086.<br>
<br>
</div>
All the best,<br>
</div>
Paul<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Robin
Lovelock <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gp...@co..." target="_blank">gp...@co...</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Hi All. Here is a
section from one of Snoopy's Blog pages from 2015. <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_4017223237028887647moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk/rbblogx.htm" target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk/rbblogx.htm</a>
- don't waste your time looking through it all :-)<br>
It seems Cezar in Romania suggested this servo. The
important thing is to test at least one example of a
product in realistic use.<br>
Easiest done by programming something that will provide
the same pattern of movement, over what will be months.<br>
Connect several of them in parallel if you want to be more
certain of the result. Then leave it running in the "lab"
until some fail.<br>
Don't expect too much: these days what has the same case
and label may not be the same product ;-)<br>
<br>
Here's that old Blogx material, dating from 2015 below.
Current "work" is in Blog6 on <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_4017223237028887647moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk/rbblog6.htm" target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk/rbblog6.htm</a><br>
<br>
To go "off topic". I'll happily use a Forum, but I would
not want Colin to dilute his excellent support to
Microtransat.<br>
If someone wants to set up a wider robot forum, they can.
I like the scope of Microtransat as it is.<br>
It's all to easy to spend time on challenges that are
easy: Microtransat is not - for those "competing" ;-)<br>
<br>
Robin<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_4017223237028887647moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk" target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk</a><br>
<br>
<b>
<p><img src="cid:par...@co..."
alt="HS5086 failed after ~ 22 days x 2.5 = ~ 2
months Snoopy use." height="200" align="right"
width="200"><i>Thursday 26th March:<span
class="m_4017223237028887647Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>Don't
feel bad, Cesar in Romania, but your suggestion of
trying the HS5086 servo did us a big favour: it
reinforced the importance of testing a product before
changing the design, based on what is seen on paper.
It will also make us look more seriously, in the long
term, into a vane-rudder clutch based autopilot: but
that may take years before someone designs, tests, AND
produces the right product. See when we put this
product under 2.5x accelerated 24/7 test above, on
Wednesday 4th March. At about 8pm this evening the
house stank of something burning: it still stinks now,
after having the patio door open 2 hours. I calculate
this failure, after 22 days, equates to about 2 months
of typical Snoopy autopilot use. i.e. not reliable
enough for a trans-Atlantic crossing, where each
critical element should have nearer 12 months or more
as a MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures). I will be
happy to connect any servo supplied to me into the
same test rig. The trusty Acoms servo is still
running: we will see when that fails. The earlier
failure, in the Blog above, gave the same symptoms.
See those scorch marks on the paper it was sat on, and
is now stuck on. It's a good job it didn't start a
house fire !</p>
<p>Today I also got a small mains 5v supply from
Maplins, so we could put a complete autopilot here
under 24/7 test, looking for a "frozen autopilot
failure". The Acoms servo will probably be moved
across, to join the autopilot Picaxe 08M2 computer,
BR355 GPS, and Text-To-Speech, that tells us that it
is working correcting, giving guidance to Bray Lake,
as in our "Pub Tests".</p>
<p><img src="cid:par...@co..."
alt="Two servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec HS-5086WP"
height="100" align="right" width="109"><i>Friday 3rd
April 2015:<span
class="m_4017223237028887647Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>The
Spot4 tracker is STILL running off it's internal
batteries. The second Acomms AS-17 servo failed on
it's accelerated 2.5x reliability test. This new one
lasted 17 days, equivalent to only 42 days, compared
with the earlier, used one lasting about 30. Another
one was started on test. This seems as if the AS-17
product only has a MTBF in the ballpark of 1 or 2
months: not enough for an Atlantic crossing. We will
continue with the AS17 until we find a better product
- with low standimg current. If anyone finds one, with
low current ~10mA or less, they are welcome to put it
in our test rig.</p>
<p><i>Sunday 14th June:<span
class="m_4017223237028887647Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>The
AS-17 servo stopped today, having been running since
4th May (according to desk diary). i.e. approx 6 weeks
x 2.5 = 15 weeks / 3.75 months MTBF. New As-17 would
have been put on same 24/7 test, but test rig mains
PSU failed. Battery tests indicate that the servo had
failed, drawing more current (and getting hot). This
had probably overloaded the PSU.</p>
<p><i>Friday 24th July:<span
class="m_4017223237028887647Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>AS-17
servo reliability test started again, at 1430, after
pouring some Halfords Cycle oil into the lower part of
the casing, in the hope that some might reach the
motor brushes. If so, this might make things worse,
causing the servo to fail earlier. However, there is a
chance that the oil might have some beneficial effect,
such as lubrication or dissipation of heat. This was
after replacing the failed mains USB 5v supply. The
new supply caused the Picaxe/Servo to "hunt", so a 5v
NiMH battery was added in parallel. We will see how
long this servo test lasts, until something fails !<span
class="m_4017223237028887647Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<i>Saturday 25th July:<span
class="m_4017223237028887647Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>The
servo stopped in less than 24 hours, so it seems the
oil made it worse. It was hot, like the others.</p>
<p><img src="cid:par...@co..."
alt="Two servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec HS-5086WP"
height="200" align="right" width="218"><i>Thursday
3rd September 2015:</i><span
class="m_4017223237028887647Apple-converted-space"> </span>GOOD
NEWS ON SERVO RELIABILITY ? I'm grateful to Peter, who
recently suggested that our failures of servos, mostly
due to overheating, might be due to our 24/7 testing
of them at a higher rate of use (2.5x?) than how the
servo is normally used in the boat.</p>
<p>Having looked again at our test program SERVOTST.BAS,
I see that we are testing at 5x, not 2.5x. i.e. our
guesstimate of the rudder servo lasting 1 or 2 months,
should be doubled. Also, this accelerated use maybe,
as Peter suggests, be the reason for overheating, and
the reliability under normal use might be better. For
those interested in the detail: our autopilot logic
typically operates the rudder about 10 times per
minute, of which about 4 or 5 seconds it is central,
then moved to left OR right for 1 or 2 seconds. Our
SERVOTST software has been operating the servo as fast
as it can: about 24x/minute, with each operation being
full left AND full right. Hence my realisation that
this is 5x rather than 2.5x normal use. ALSO, under
typical use, the rudder will only be moved a small
ammount, especially if the boat is going roughly in
the correct direction. So this full movement in
SERVOTST is a more demanding test.</p>
<p>A new test program SERVOT2.BAS was made that repeats
a more realistic pattern of 4 secs centre, 2 secs full
left, 4 secs centre, 2 secs full right, etc. Note that
the new test still uses full throw left or right. The
test rig was started at 1000 today, with two servos
connected in parallel: our trusty Acoms AS-17, and the
Hitec HS5086. The bad news is that this more realistic
testing will take longer to show results: i.e. it will
not be until we are well into 2016, that we will see
if the reliability is better than we have been
calculating ! :-)</p>
<p><i>27 December 2015:</i>SERVO FAILS ! The Acoms
AS1-17 servo failed, in a hot condition yesterday. We
can do the arithmetic in slower time :-)<span
class="m_4017223237028887647Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Meanwhile Snoopy's boat10 remains ready for the next
Atlantic Attempt, probably in early 2016. It has a new
AS-17 servo.</p>
</b>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<div class="m_4017223237028887647moz-cite-prefix">On
28/04/2017 21:03, Paul Miller wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
Just a small bit of data to answer the question
about rudder servo reliability. We have been using
the HiTec HS5646WP on our MaxiMOOPs and in roughly
1500 NM of sailing have had one failure over four
boats. The longest one sailed was about three
weeks and 500 NM before it was hijacked by a
fishing boat. The rudder servo (and everything
else) worked fine but we swapped them out for the
next try just to be safe and they are reasonably
cheap. The one that failed may have been because
it was a keel attached rudder, which has a lot
more torque on it compared to a spade rudder, and
the rudder showed signs of damage.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at
1:44 AM, Robin Lovelock <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gp...@co..."
target="_blank">gp...@co...</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Hi
Folks. I'm up early, just having added a
significant update to the "Snoopy" page
Latest News on <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm"
target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm</a>
<br>
<br>
I saw the discussion about servos, discussed
in emails with Andy and others, and have
used some below ....<br>
<br>
... I should have said earlier that the
rudder servo is the weak link in Snoopy's
total boat systems.<br>
<br>
I did 24/7 testing of Acoms AS-17 servos at
home, for periods lasting typically up to 4
months.<br>
The MTBF ( Mean Time Between Failure ) was
less than 3 months, so the MTBF of a Snoopy
boat will be less.<br>
I did not need to draw a reliability diagram
to see that. <br>
<br>
If the servo fails, the boat will drift, but
hopefully we can track it.<br>
If you look at the tracks on all attempts on
Microtransat, very few had their autopilot
working for more than a day or two.<br>
This is easy to see with Snoopy's SPOT
tracking: no 24 hour (Microtransat) delay,
when the autopilot steering fails<br>
- by comparing the track with the known
drift near there due to wind and tide.<br>
<br>
BUT, my poor build quality over the years,
even using good products and materials, is
the cause of almost all our Team-Joker
failures.<br>
Roy knows better than anyone how I have
often had poorly soldered joints in the
power wiring.<br>
Over the years, particularly during 24/7
testing on Bray Lake, everything has failed
at some time.<br>
e.g. I now use a Z-bend of steel* wire as
the push rod from servo to rudder linkage.<br>
We have even had standard servo welded
cleats fail after many weeks of use.<br>
* I must now find stainless steel wire so it
is not magnetic, but any resulting compass
error seems small in Boat11.<br>
<br>
In my career I have always favoured "BUY
over BUILD".<br>
Few hobbyists who choose to BUILD (
sometimes re-invent the wheel ) bring
testing of reliability into their plans. It
takes time !<br>
<br>
I have all the servos ( mostly that AS-17 )
that have failed, in case anyone wants to
strip them down and examine them. Nobody has
:-)<br>
<br>
One of my Snoopy blogs (somewhere) has the
detail of one that looked - from it's spec -
as if it would be better - it was not, but
worse.<br>
<br>
It's the old story in engineering: having to
prioritise what you do, if you want to meet
a timeframe. e.g. Boat11 ready in late
summer.<br>
Great if I had a large team of engineers,
working 40 hours / week on various project
tasks - but I don't. Those were the days :-)<br>
<br>
Robin<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk"
target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk</a><br>
<br>
<div
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957moz-cite-prefix">On
28/04/2017 01:13, Chris Diacov wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957WordSection1">
<p
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText">Hello
Duncan,</p>
<p
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText">I’d
be interested to hear more about the
dual servo idea– how do you plan to
engage / disengage the idle (back-up)
servo? Clutch? Other mechanism?</p>
<p
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText">On
the original question: here are a
couple more options for unloading /
protecting the rudder servos:</p>
<p
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:.5in"> <span>1.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span>Elastic
double-side linkage. Dampens shocks
from accidental impacts, provides
gradual ramp up of counter-torque. On
the other hand, difficult to
calibrate, can add a significant
amount of error / deviation and
potentially flutter;</p>
<p
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:.5in"> <span>2.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span>Eccentric
pulleys that push a tiller. The
benefit comes from translating a
portion the back force to normal
(compression) force on the edge of the
pulley, thus decreasing the amount of
counter-torque the servo has to fight
(at the cost of increased radial load
on the bushings/bearings).</p>
<p
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText">At
the end of the day, I think the added
complexity and potential for failure
outweighed any benefits. Balanced
rudder and an oversized metal gear
servo would still be your best bet.
Maybe add a simple in-line damper in
your linkage to prevent impact damage
(assuming the rudder and shaft
survived). Having 2 independent
rudders each with their own servo may
give you extra chance of survival.
Until both of them fail and get stuck
at Right Full :) </p>
<p
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText">--</p>
<p
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText">Chris,
Project Pilotfish</p>
<p
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.projectpilotfish.com"
target="_blank">http://www.projectpilotfish.co<wbr>m</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
name="m_4017223237028887647_m_243208222073569957__MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Duncan Thomas [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_4017223237028887647m_243208222073569957moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:dun...@gm..." target="_blank">mailto:dun...@gm...<wbr>m</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 27,
2017 12:45 PM<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 27 Apr
2017 7:40 pm, "Andrej Osusky"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:and...@gm..."
target="_blank">and...@gm...</a>>
wrote:</p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black;background:white">What</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;background:white">
limits the life
expectancy? (Gearbox?
Brushless motor? Bearings?
Encoder? ...)</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">While I've no
evidence for it yet, I suspect
that the rudder servo experiences
far more back force than most
servo applications, and so most
basic commercial servos won't last
well. I plan on looking at some of
the open source servo controllers,
so that I can add code to detect
when the servo is trying to fight
too much load, and just let it
flap for a while under that
circumstance (while logging the
event). Basically, if it is
driving the motor hard but losing,
then stop trying for a while, but
let the rest of the system know.
The same eventing system can also
detect servo failure, so you could
potentially fit two servos, with
the backup servo free rotating
until needed. That wouldn't help
if the first servo stuffed a
mechanical failure that caused it
to jamb, but I've not yet seen
that as a failure mode in
practice.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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|
From: Paul M. <phm...@gm...> - 2017-04-28 23:14:56
|
Hi Robin, Different servos. The 5646 has about three times the capacity of the 5086. All the best, Paul On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Robin Lovelock <gp...@co...> wrote: > Hi All. Here is a section from one of Snoopy's Blog pages from 2015. > www.gpss.co.uk/rbblogx.htm - don't waste your time looking through it all > :-) > It seems Cezar in Romania suggested this servo. The important thing is to > test at least one example of a product in realistic use. > Easiest done by programming something that will provide the same pattern > of movement, over what will be months. > Connect several of them in parallel if you want to be more certain of the > result. Then leave it running in the "lab" until some fail. > Don't expect too much: these days what has the same case and label may not > be the same product ;-) > > Here's that old Blogx material, dating from 2015 below. Current "work" is > in Blog6 on www.gpss.co.uk/rbblog6.htm > > To go "off topic". I'll happily use a Forum, but I would not want Colin to > dilute his excellent support to Microtransat. > If someone wants to set up a wider robot forum, they can. I like the scope > of Microtransat as it is. > It's all to easy to spend time on challenges that are easy: Microtransat > is not - for those "competing" ;-) > > Robin > www.gpss.co.uk > > > > * [image: HS5086 failed after ~ 22 days x 2.5 = ~ 2 months Snoopy > use.]Thursday 26th March: Don't feel bad, Cesar in Romania, but your > suggestion of trying the HS5086 servo did us a big favour: it reinforced > the importance of testing a product before changing the design, based on > what is seen on paper. It will also make us look more seriously, in the > long term, into a vane-rudder clutch based autopilot: but that may take > years before someone designs, tests, AND produces the right product. See > when we put this product under 2.5x accelerated 24/7 test above, on > Wednesday 4th March. At about 8pm this evening the house stank of something > burning: it still stinks now, after having the patio door open 2 hours. I > calculate this failure, after 22 days, equates to about 2 months of typical > Snoopy autopilot use. i.e. not reliable enough for a trans-Atlantic > crossing, where each critical element should have nearer 12 months or more > as a MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures). I will be happy to connect any > servo supplied to me into the same test rig. The trusty Acoms servo is > still running: we will see when that fails. The earlier failure, in the > Blog above, gave the same symptoms. See those scorch marks on the paper it > was sat on, and is now stuck on. It's a good job it didn't start a house > fire ! Today I also got a small mains 5v supply from Maplins, so we could > put a complete autopilot here under 24/7 test, looking for a "frozen > autopilot failure". The Acoms servo will probably be moved across, to join > the autopilot Picaxe 08M2 computer, BR355 GPS, and Text-To-Speech, that > tells us that it is working correcting, giving guidance to Bray Lake, as in > our "Pub Tests". [image: Two servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec > HS-5086WP]Friday 3rd April 2015: The Spot4 tracker is STILL running off > it's internal batteries. The second Acomms AS-17 servo failed on it's > accelerated 2.5x reliability test. This new one lasted 17 days, equivalent > to only 42 days, compared with the earlier, used one lasting about 30. > Another one was started on test. This seems as if the AS-17 product only > has a MTBF in the ballpark of 1 or 2 months: not enough for an Atlantic > crossing. We will continue with the AS17 until we find a better product - > with low standimg current. If anyone finds one, with low current ~10mA or > less, they are welcome to put it in our test rig. Sunday 14th June: The > AS-17 servo stopped today, having been running since 4th May (according to > desk diary). i.e. approx 6 weeks x 2.5 = 15 weeks / 3.75 months MTBF. New > As-17 would have been put on same 24/7 test, but test rig mains PSU failed. > Battery tests indicate that the servo had failed, drawing more current (and > getting hot). This had probably overloaded the PSU. Friday 24th July: AS-17 > servo reliability test started again, at 1430, after pouring some Halfords > Cycle oil into the lower part of the casing, in the hope that some might > reach the motor brushes. If so, this might make things worse, causing the > servo to fail earlier. However, there is a chance that the oil might have > some beneficial effect, such as lubrication or dissipation of heat. This > was after replacing the failed mains USB 5v supply. The new supply caused > the Picaxe/Servo to "hunt", so a 5v NiMH battery was added in parallel. We > will see how long this servo test lasts, until something fails ! Saturday > 25th July: The servo stopped in less than 24 hours, so it seems the oil > made it worse. It was hot, like the others. [image: Two servos: Acomms > AS-17 and Hitec HS-5086WP]Thursday 3rd September 2015: GOOD NEWS ON SERVO > RELIABILITY ? I'm grateful to Peter, who recently suggested that our > failures of servos, mostly due to overheating, might be due to our 24/7 > testing of them at a higher rate of use (2.5x?) than how the servo is > normally used in the boat. Having looked again at our test program > SERVOTST.BAS, I see that we are testing at 5x, not 2.5x. i.e. our > guesstimate of the rudder servo lasting 1 or 2 months, should be doubled. > Also, this accelerated use maybe, as Peter suggests, be the reason for > overheating, and the reliability under normal use might be better. For > those interested in the detail: our autopilot logic typically operates the > rudder about 10 times per minute, of which about 4 or 5 seconds it is > central, then moved to left OR right for 1 or 2 seconds. Our SERVOTST > software has been operating the servo as fast as it can: about 24x/minute, > with each operation being full left AND full right. Hence my realisation > that this is 5x rather than 2.5x normal use. ALSO, under typical use, the > rudder will only be moved a small ammount, especially if the boat is going > roughly in the correct direction. So this full movement in SERVOTST is a > more demanding test. A new test program SERVOT2.BAS was made that repeats a > more realistic pattern of 4 secs centre, 2 secs full left, 4 secs centre, 2 > secs full right, etc. Note that the new test still uses full throw left or > right. The test rig was started at 1000 today, with two servos connected in > parallel: our trusty Acoms AS-17, and the Hitec HS5086. The bad news is > that this more realistic testing will take longer to show results: i.e. it > will not be until we are well into 2016, that we will see if the > reliability is better than we have been calculating ! :-) 27 December > 2015:SERVO FAILS ! The Acoms AS1-17 servo failed, in a hot condition > yesterday. We can do the arithmetic in slower time :-) Meanwhile Snoopy's > boat10 remains ready for the next Atlantic Attempt, probably in early 2016. > It has a new AS-17 servo. * > > > On 28/04/2017 21:03, Paul Miller wrote: > > > > Just a small bit of data to answer the question about rudder servo > reliability. We have been using the HiTec HS5646WP on our MaxiMOOPs and in > roughly 1500 NM of sailing have had one failure over four boats. The > longest one sailed was about three weeks and 500 NM before it was hijacked > by a fishing boat. The rudder servo (and everything else) worked fine but > we swapped them out for the next try just to be safe and they are > reasonably cheap. The one that failed may have been because it was a keel > attached rudder, which has a lot more torque on it compared to a spade > rudder, and the rudder showed signs of damage. > > On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 1:44 AM, Robin Lovelock <gp...@co...> > wrote: > >> Hi Folks. I'm up early, just having added a significant update to the >> "Snoopy" page Latest News on www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm >> >> I saw the discussion about servos, discussed in emails with Andy and >> others, and have used some below .... >> >> ... I should have said earlier that the rudder servo is the weak link in >> Snoopy's total boat systems. >> >> I did 24/7 testing of Acoms AS-17 servos at home, for periods lasting >> typically up to 4 months. >> The MTBF ( Mean Time Between Failure ) was less than 3 months, so the >> MTBF of a Snoopy boat will be less. >> I did not need to draw a reliability diagram to see that. >> >> If the servo fails, the boat will drift, but hopefully we can track it. >> If you look at the tracks on all attempts on Microtransat, very few had >> their autopilot working for more than a day or two. >> This is easy to see with Snoopy's SPOT tracking: no 24 hour >> (Microtransat) delay, when the autopilot steering fails >> - by comparing the track with the known drift near there due to wind and >> tide. >> >> BUT, my poor build quality over the years, even using good products and >> materials, is the cause of almost all our Team-Joker failures. >> Roy knows better than anyone how I have often had poorly soldered joints >> in the power wiring. >> Over the years, particularly during 24/7 testing on Bray Lake, everything >> has failed at some time. >> e.g. I now use a Z-bend of steel* wire as the push rod from servo to >> rudder linkage. >> We have even had standard servo welded cleats fail after many weeks of >> use. >> * I must now find stainless steel wire so it is not magnetic, but any >> resulting compass error seems small in Boat11. >> >> In my career I have always favoured "BUY over BUILD". >> Few hobbyists who choose to BUILD ( sometimes re-invent the wheel ) bring >> testing of reliability into their plans. It takes time ! >> >> I have all the servos ( mostly that AS-17 ) that have failed, in case >> anyone wants to strip them down and examine them. Nobody has :-) >> >> One of my Snoopy blogs (somewhere) has the detail of one that looked - >> from it's spec - as if it would be better - it was not, but worse. >> >> It's the old story in engineering: having to prioritise what you do, if >> you want to meet a timeframe. e.g. Boat11 ready in late summer. >> Great if I had a large team of engineers, working 40 hours / week on >> various project tasks - but I don't. Those were the days :-) >> >> Robin >> www.gpss.co.uk >> >> On 28/04/2017 01:13, Chris Diacov wrote: >> >> Hello Duncan, >> >> >> >> I’d be interested to hear more about the dual servo idea– how do you plan >> to engage / disengage the idle (back-up) servo? Clutch? Other mechanism? >> >> >> >> On the original question: here are a couple more options for unloading / >> protecting the rudder servos: >> >> >> >> 1. Elastic double-side linkage. Dampens shocks from accidental >> impacts, provides gradual ramp up of counter-torque. On the other hand, >> difficult to calibrate, can add a significant amount of error / deviation >> and potentially flutter; >> >> 2. Eccentric pulleys that push a tiller. The benefit comes from >> translating a portion the back force to normal (compression) force on the >> edge of the pulley, thus decreasing the amount of counter-torque the servo >> has to fight (at the cost of increased radial load on the >> bushings/bearings). >> >> >> >> At the end of the day, I think the added complexity and potential for >> failure outweighed any benefits. Balanced rudder and an oversized metal >> gear servo would still be your best bet. Maybe add a simple in-line damper >> in your linkage to prevent impact damage (assuming the rudder and shaft >> survived). Having 2 independent rudders each with their own servo may give >> you extra chance of survival. Until both of them fail and get stuck at >> Right Full :) >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris, Project Pilotfish >> >> http://www.projectpilotfish.com >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Duncan Thomas [mailto:dun...@gm... >> <dun...@gm...>] >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 27, 2017 12:45 PM >> >> >> >> On 27 Apr 2017 7:40 pm, "Andrej Osusky" <and...@gm...> wrote: >> >> What limits the life expectancy? (Gearbox? Brushless motor? Bearings? >> Encoder? ...) >> >> >> >> While I've no evidence for it yet, I suspect that the rudder servo >> experiences far more back force than most servo applications, and so most >> basic commercial servos won't last well. I plan on looking at some of the >> open source servo controllers, so that I can add code to detect when the >> servo is trying to fight too much load, and just let it flap for a while >> under that circumstance (while logging the event). Basically, if it is >> driving the motor hard but losing, then stop trying for a while, but let >> the rest of the system know. The same eventing system can also detect servo >> failure, so you could potentially fit two servos, with the backup servo >> free rotating until needed. That wouldn't help if the first servo stuffed a >> mechanical failure that caused it to jamb, but I've not yet seen that as a >> failure mode in practice. >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Microtransat-general mailing lis...@li...://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging >> tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot >> _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general >> mailing list Mic...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing lis...@li...://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > |
|
From: Robin L. <gp...@co...> - 2017-04-28 20:50:25
|
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Hi All. Here is a section from one of Snoopy's Blog pages from 2015.
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.gpss.co.uk/rbblogx.htm">www.gpss.co.uk/rbblogx.htm</a> - don't waste your time looking through
it all :-)<br>
It seems Cezar in Romania suggested this servo. The important thing
is to test at least one example of a product in realistic use.<br>
Easiest done by programming something that will provide the same
pattern of movement, over what will be months.<br>
Connect several of them in parallel if you want to be more certain
of the result. Then leave it running in the "lab" until some fail.<br>
Don't expect too much: these days what has the same case and label
may not be the same product ;-)<br>
<br>
Here's that old Blogx material, dating from 2015 below. Current
"work" is in Blog6 on <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.gpss.co.uk/rbblog6.htm">www.gpss.co.uk/rbblog6.htm</a><br>
<br>
To go "off topic". I'll happily use a Forum, but I would not want
Colin to dilute his excellent support to Microtransat.<br>
If someone wants to set up a wider robot forum, they can. I like the
scope of Microtransat as it is.<br>
It's all to easy to spend time on challenges that are easy:
Microtransat is not - for those "competing" ;-)<br>
<br>
Robin<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.gpss.co.uk">www.gpss.co.uk</a><br>
<br>
<b style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New
Roman"; font-size: medium; font-style: normal;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
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text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">
<p><img src="cid:par...@co..."
alt="HS5086 failed after ~ 22 days x 2.5 = ~ 2 months Snoopy
use." height="200" align="right" width="200"><i>Thursday 26th
March:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>Don't
feel bad, Cesar in Romania, but your suggestion of trying the
HS5086 servo did us a big favour: it reinforced the importance
of testing a product before changing the design, based on what
is seen on paper. It will also make us look more seriously, in
the long term, into a vane-rudder clutch based autopilot: but
that may take years before someone designs, tests, AND produces
the right product. See when we put this product under 2.5x
accelerated 24/7 test above, on Wednesday 4th March. At about
8pm this evening the house stank of something burning: it still
stinks now, after having the patio door open 2 hours. I
calculate this failure, after 22 days, equates to about 2 months
of typical Snoopy autopilot use. i.e. not reliable enough for a
trans-Atlantic crossing, where each critical element should have
nearer 12 months or more as a MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures).
I will be happy to connect any servo supplied to me into the
same test rig. The trusty Acoms servo is still running: we will
see when that fails. The earlier failure, in the Blog above,
gave the same symptoms. See those scorch marks on the paper it
was sat on, and is now stuck on. It's a good job it didn't start
a house fire !</p>
<p>Today I also got a small mains 5v supply from Maplins, so we
could put a complete autopilot here under 24/7 test, looking for
a "frozen autopilot failure". The Acoms servo will probably be
moved across, to join the autopilot Picaxe 08M2 computer, BR355
GPS, and Text-To-Speech, that tells us that it is working
correcting, giving guidance to Bray Lake, as in our "Pub Tests".</p>
<p><img src="cid:par...@co..." alt="Two
servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec HS-5086WP" height="100"
align="right" width="109"><i>Friday 3rd April 2015:<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>The Spot4 tracker
is STILL running off it's internal batteries. The second Acomms
AS-17 servo failed on it's accelerated 2.5x reliability test.
This new one lasted 17 days, equivalent to only 42 days,
compared with the earlier, used one lasting about 30. Another
one was started on test. This seems as if the AS-17 product only
has a MTBF in the ballpark of 1 or 2 months: not enough for an
Atlantic crossing. We will continue with the AS17 until we find
a better product - with low standimg current. If anyone finds
one, with low current ~10mA or less, they are welcome to put it
in our test rig.</p>
<p><i>Sunday 14th June:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>The
AS-17 servo stopped today, having been running since 4th May
(according to desk diary). i.e. approx 6 weeks x 2.5 = 15 weeks
/ 3.75 months MTBF. New As-17 would have been put on same 24/7
test, but test rig mains PSU failed. Battery tests indicate that
the servo had failed, drawing more current (and getting hot).
This had probably overloaded the PSU.</p>
<p><i>Friday 24th July:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>AS-17
servo reliability test started again, at 1430, after pouring
some Halfords Cycle oil into the lower part of the casing, in
the hope that some might reach the motor brushes. If so, this
might make things worse, causing the servo to fail earlier.
However, there is a chance that the oil might have some
beneficial effect, such as lubrication or dissipation of heat.
This was after replacing the failed mains USB 5v supply. The new
supply caused the Picaxe/Servo to "hunt", so a 5v NiMH battery
was added in parallel. We will see how long this servo test
lasts, until something fails !<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<i>Saturday 25th July:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>The
servo stopped in less than 24 hours, so it seems the oil made it
worse. It was hot, like the others.</p>
<p><img src="cid:par...@co..." alt="Two
servos: Acomms AS-17 and Hitec HS-5086WP" height="200"
align="right" width="218"><i>Thursday 3rd September 2015:</i><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>GOOD NEWS ON SERVO
RELIABILITY ? I'm grateful to Peter, who recently suggested that
our failures of servos, mostly due to overheating, might be due
to our 24/7 testing of them at a higher rate of use (2.5x?) than
how the servo is normally used in the boat.</p>
<p>Having looked again at our test program SERVOTST.BAS, I see
that we are testing at 5x, not 2.5x. i.e. our guesstimate of the
rudder servo lasting 1 or 2 months, should be doubled. Also,
this accelerated use maybe, as Peter suggests, be the reason for
overheating, and the reliability under normal use might be
better. For those interested in the detail: our autopilot logic
typically operates the rudder about 10 times per minute, of
which about 4 or 5 seconds it is central, then moved to left OR
right for 1 or 2 seconds. Our SERVOTST software has been
operating the servo as fast as it can: about 24x/minute, with
each operation being full left AND full right. Hence my
realisation that this is 5x rather than 2.5x normal use. ALSO,
under typical use, the rudder will only be moved a small
ammount, especially if the boat is going roughly in the correct
direction. So this full movement in SERVOTST is a more demanding
test.</p>
<p>A new test program SERVOT2.BAS was made that repeats a more
realistic pattern of 4 secs centre, 2 secs full left, 4 secs
centre, 2 secs full right, etc. Note that the new test still
uses full throw left or right. The test rig was started at 1000
today, with two servos connected in parallel: our trusty Acoms
AS-17, and the Hitec HS5086. The bad news is that this more
realistic testing will take longer to show results: i.e. it will
not be until we are well into 2016, that we will see if the
reliability is better than we have been calculating ! :-)</p>
<p><i>27 December 2015:</i>SERVO FAILS ! The Acoms AS1-17 servo
failed, in a hot condition yesterday. We can do the arithmetic
in slower time :-)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Meanwhile Snoopy's boat10 remains ready for the next Atlantic
Attempt, probably in early 2016. It has a new AS-17 servo.</p>
</b><br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 28/04/2017 21:03, Paul Miller wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAD...@ma..."
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
Just a small bit of data to answer the question about rudder
servo reliability. We have been using the HiTec HS5646WP on our
MaxiMOOPs and in roughly 1500 NM of sailing have had one failure
over four boats. The longest one sailed was about three weeks
and 500 NM before it was hijacked by a fishing boat. The rudder
servo (and everything else) worked fine but we swapped them out
for the next try just to be safe and they are reasonably cheap.
The one that failed may have been because it was a keel attached
rudder, which has a lot more torque on it compared to a spade
rudder, and the rudder showed signs of damage.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 1:44 AM, Robin
Lovelock <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gp...@co..." target="_blank">gp...@co...</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Hi Folks. I'm up
early, just having added a significant update to the
"Snoopy" page Latest News on <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_243208222073569957moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm" target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm</a>
<br>
<br>
I saw the discussion about servos, discussed in emails
with Andy and others, and have used some below ....<br>
<br>
... I should have said earlier that the rudder servo is
the weak link in Snoopy's total boat systems.<br>
<br>
I did 24/7 testing of Acoms AS-17 servos at home, for
periods lasting typically up to 4 months.<br>
The MTBF ( Mean Time Between Failure ) was less than 3
months, so the MTBF of a Snoopy boat will be less.<br>
I did not need to draw a reliability diagram to see that.
<br>
<br>
If the servo fails, the boat will drift, but hopefully we
can track it.<br>
If you look at the tracks on all attempts on Microtransat,
very few had their autopilot working for more than a day
or two.<br>
This is easy to see with Snoopy's SPOT tracking: no 24
hour (Microtransat) delay, when the autopilot steering
fails<br>
- by comparing the track with the known drift near there
due to wind and tide.<br>
<br>
BUT, my poor build quality over the years, even using good
products and materials, is the cause of almost all our
Team-Joker failures.<br>
Roy knows better than anyone how I have often had poorly
soldered joints in the power wiring.<br>
Over the years, particularly during 24/7 testing on Bray
Lake, everything has failed at some time.<br>
e.g. I now use a Z-bend of steel* wire as the push rod
from servo to rudder linkage.<br>
We have even had standard servo welded cleats fail after
many weeks of use.<br>
* I must now find stainless steel wire so it is not
magnetic, but any resulting compass error seems small in
Boat11.<br>
<br>
In my career I have always favoured "BUY over BUILD".<br>
Few hobbyists who choose to BUILD ( sometimes re-invent
the wheel ) bring testing of reliability into their plans.
It takes time !<br>
<br>
I have all the servos ( mostly that AS-17 ) that have
failed, in case anyone wants to strip them down and
examine them. Nobody has :-)<br>
<br>
One of my Snoopy blogs (somewhere) has the detail of one
that looked - from it's spec - as if it would be better -
it was not, but worse.<br>
<br>
It's the old story in engineering: having to prioritise
what you do, if you want to meet a timeframe. e.g. Boat11
ready in late summer.<br>
Great if I had a large team of engineers, working 40 hours
/ week on various project tasks - but I don't. Those were
the days :-)<br>
<br>
Robin<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_243208222073569957moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.gpss.co.uk" target="_blank">www.gpss.co.uk</a><br>
<br>
<div class="m_243208222073569957moz-cite-prefix">On
28/04/2017 01:13, Chris Diacov wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_243208222073569957WordSection1">
<p class="m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText">Hello
Duncan,</p>
<p class="m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText">I’d be
interested to hear more about the dual servo idea–
how do you plan to engage / disengage the idle
(back-up) servo? Clutch? Other mechanism?</p>
<p class="m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText">On the
original question: here are a couple more options
for unloading / protecting the rudder servos:</p>
<p class="m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:.5in"> <span>1.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span>Elastic double-side linkage. Dampens
shocks from accidental impacts, provides gradual
ramp up of counter-torque. On the other hand,
difficult to calibrate, can add a significant amount
of error / deviation and potentially flutter;</p>
<p class="m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:.5in"> <span>2.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span>Eccentric pulleys that push a
tiller. The benefit comes from translating a portion
the back force to normal (compression) force on the
edge of the pulley, thus decreasing the amount of
counter-torque the servo has to fight (at the cost
of increased radial load on the bushings/bearings).</p>
<p class="m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText">At the end
of the day, I think the added complexity and
potential for failure outweighed any benefits.
Balanced rudder and an oversized metal gear servo
would still be your best bet. Maybe add a simple
in-line damper in your linkage to prevent impact
damage (assuming the rudder and shaft survived).
Having 2 independent rudders each with their own
servo may give you extra chance of survival. Until
both of them fail and get stuck at Right Full :) </p>
<p class="m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText">--</p>
<p class="m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText">Chris,
Project Pilotfish</p>
<p class="m_243208222073569957MsoPlainText"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.projectpilotfish.com"
target="_blank">http://www.projectpilotfish.<wbr>com</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="m_243208222073569957__MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Duncan Thomas [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_243208222073569957moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:dun...@gm..."
target="_blank">mailto:duncan.thomas@gmail.<wbr>com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 27, 2017 12:45 PM<br>
<br>
</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 27 Apr 2017 7:40 pm,
"Andrej Osusky" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:and...@gm..."
target="_blank">and...@gm...</a>>
wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black;background:white">What</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;background:white">
limits the life expectancy? (Gearbox?
Brushless motor? Bearings? Encoder? ...)</span></p>
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</blockquote>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">While I've no evidence for it
yet, I suspect that the rudder servo experiences
far more back force than most servo
applications, and so most basic commercial
servos won't last well. I plan on looking at
some of the open source servo controllers, so
that I can add code to detect when the servo is
trying to fight too much load, and just let it
flap for a while under that circumstance (while
logging the event). Basically, if it is driving
the motor hard but losing, then stop trying for
a while, but let the rest of the system know.
The same eventing system can also detect servo
failure, so you could potentially fit two
servos, with the backup servo free rotating
until needed. That wouldn't help if the first
servo stuffed a mechanical failure that caused
it to jamb, but I've not yet seen that as a
failure mode in practice.</p>
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Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_243208222073569957moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sdm.link/slashdot" target="_blank">http://sdm.link/slashdot</a></pre>
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Microtransat-general mailing list
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_243208222073569957moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general" target="_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/<wbr>lists/listinfo/microtransat-<wbr>general</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://sdm.link/slashdot" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://sdm.link/slashdot</a>
______________________________<wbr>_________________
Microtransat-general mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Mic...@li...">Microtransat-general@lists.<wbr>sourceforge.net</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/<wbr>lists/listinfo/microtransat-<wbr>general</a>
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Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sdm.link/slashdot">http://sdm.link/slashdot</a></pre>
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Microtransat-general mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Mic...@li...">Mic...@li...</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general</a>
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From: Paul M. <phm...@gm...> - 2017-04-28 20:03:59
|
Just a small bit of data to answer the question about rudder servo reliability. We have been using the HiTec HS5646WP on our MaxiMOOPs and in roughly 1500 NM of sailing have had one failure over four boats. The longest one sailed was about three weeks and 500 NM before it was hijacked by a fishing boat. The rudder servo (and everything else) worked fine but we swapped them out for the next try just to be safe and they are reasonably cheap. The one that failed may have been because it was a keel attached rudder, which has a lot more torque on it compared to a spade rudder, and the rudder showed signs of damage. On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 1:44 AM, Robin Lovelock <gp...@co...> wrote: > Hi Folks. I'm up early, just having added a significant update to the > "Snoopy" page Latest News on www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm > > I saw the discussion about servos, discussed in emails with Andy and > others, and have used some below .... > > ... I should have said earlier that the rudder servo is the weak link in > Snoopy's total boat systems. > > I did 24/7 testing of Acoms AS-17 servos at home, for periods lasting > typically up to 4 months. > The MTBF ( Mean Time Between Failure ) was less than 3 months, so the MTBF > of a Snoopy boat will be less. > I did not need to draw a reliability diagram to see that. > > If the servo fails, the boat will drift, but hopefully we can track it. > If you look at the tracks on all attempts on Microtransat, very few had > their autopilot working for more than a day or two. > This is easy to see with Snoopy's SPOT tracking: no 24 hour (Microtransat) > delay, when the autopilot steering fails > - by comparing the track with the known drift near there due to wind and > tide. > > BUT, my poor build quality over the years, even using good products and > materials, is the cause of almost all our Team-Joker failures. > Roy knows better than anyone how I have often had poorly soldered joints > in the power wiring. > Over the years, particularly during 24/7 testing on Bray Lake, everything > has failed at some time. > e.g. I now use a Z-bend of steel* wire as the push rod from servo to > rudder linkage. > We have even had standard servo welded cleats fail after many weeks of use. > * I must now find stainless steel wire so it is not magnetic, but any > resulting compass error seems small in Boat11. > > In my career I have always favoured "BUY over BUILD". > Few hobbyists who choose to BUILD ( sometimes re-invent the wheel ) bring > testing of reliability into their plans. It takes time ! > > I have all the servos ( mostly that AS-17 ) that have failed, in case > anyone wants to strip them down and examine them. Nobody has :-) > > One of my Snoopy blogs (somewhere) has the detail of one that looked - > from it's spec - as if it would be better - it was not, but worse. > > It's the old story in engineering: having to prioritise what you do, if > you want to meet a timeframe. e.g. Boat11 ready in late summer. > Great if I had a large team of engineers, working 40 hours / week on > various project tasks - but I don't. Those were the days :-) > > Robin > www.gpss.co.uk > > On 28/04/2017 01:13, Chris Diacov wrote: > > Hello Duncan, > > > > I’d be interested to hear more about the dual servo idea– how do you plan > to engage / disengage the idle (back-up) servo? Clutch? Other mechanism? > > > > On the original question: here are a couple more options for unloading / > protecting the rudder servos: > > > > 1. Elastic double-side linkage. Dampens shocks from accidental > impacts, provides gradual ramp up of counter-torque. On the other hand, > difficult to calibrate, can add a significant amount of error / deviation > and potentially flutter; > > 2. Eccentric pulleys that push a tiller. The benefit comes from > translating a portion the back force to normal (compression) force on the > edge of the pulley, thus decreasing the amount of counter-torque the servo > has to fight (at the cost of increased radial load on the > bushings/bearings). > > > > At the end of the day, I think the added complexity and potential for > failure outweighed any benefits. Balanced rudder and an oversized metal > gear servo would still be your best bet. Maybe add a simple in-line damper > in your linkage to prevent impact damage (assuming the rudder and shaft > survived). Having 2 independent rudders each with their own servo may give > you extra chance of survival. Until both of them fail and get stuck at > Right Full :) > > > > -- > > Chris, Project Pilotfish > > http://www.projectpilotfish.com > > > > > > *From:* Duncan Thomas [mailto:dun...@gm... > <dun...@gm...>] > *Sent:* Thursday, April 27, 2017 12:45 PM > > > > On 27 Apr 2017 7:40 pm, "Andrej Osusky" <and...@gm...> wrote: > > What limits the life expectancy? (Gearbox? Brushless motor? Bearings? > Encoder? ...) > > > > While I've no evidence for it yet, I suspect that the rudder servo > experiences far more back force than most servo applications, and so most > basic commercial servos won't last well. I plan on looking at some of the > open source servo controllers, so that I can add code to detect when the > servo is trying to fight too much load, and just let it flap for a while > under that circumstance (while logging the event). Basically, if it is > driving the motor hard but losing, then stop trying for a while, but let > the rest of the system know. The same eventing system can also detect servo > failure, so you could potentially fit two servos, with the backup servo > free rotating until needed. That wouldn't help if the first servo stuffed a > mechanical failure that caused it to jamb, but I've not yet seen that as a > failure mode in practice. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing lis...@li...://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > |
|
From: Colin S. <co...@ab...> - 2017-04-28 19:16:53
|
On 28/04/17 19:32, John Lamport wrote: My intent is to have an open forum on autonomous control of both boats and rovers, not limited to MicroTransat or Sailbot. There are plenty of people out there working on these kinds of projects. Some just for the fun of it. I have done lots of searches, autonomous sailing, autonomous vehicles, autonomous control, robotic sailing and many others and have never found a single group that I can participate in. I did find the MircoTransat site and months ago added my name to the general mailing list, other than regular updates from Robin, I've never gotten another email. The other day I responded to one of Robins and now I have gotten several from several different people in the last 3 days. Was I not on the right list until I replied? No, its just been quiet the last few months. It often happens that we get several months of near silence followed by a sudden burst of activity. Also during the last 3 days all most all of the replies have been to Robins original email, with the same subject line, but we have talked about Robins test, I asked about the Pixhawk controller, overheating of a motor, rudder stabilization, and forums. Change the subject line if you change the subject! With a forum that could have been 5 separate threads with those who wanted to only responding to the subject they wanted to. Only if you don't reply to a thread on an unrelated subject. See previous point! I'm not trying to change the world or how the Microtransat group communicates, if your happy with the email list fine. The google groups migration is something i've been intending to do for a while. If for no other reason than the random delays and fairly poor spam filtering that sourceforge suffers from. Hopefully it will also satisfy more people on both sides of the forum vs mailing list debate. I've been looking for a group of like minded people who want to share what they are working on, or what their interest are, I have yet to find it, Have you looked at hackaday? Its pretty broad, but certainly encompasses your interests and is full of knowledgeable people. So I thought I could open a forum for that discussion. John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu...<mailto:joh...@mu...>, Web: http://www.munters.com FACEBOOK<http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal> | TWITTER<http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp> | YOUTUBE<http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN<http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> [cid:par...@ab...]<http://www.munters.com> From: Colin Sauze <co...@ab...><mailto:co...@ab...> To: <mic...@li...><mailto:mic...@li...> Date: 04/28/2017 02:14 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. ________________________________ On 28/04/17 18:56, John Lamport wrote: I would like it open to all, not just MicroTransat or Sailbot. As you say there are plenty of others doing similar project just for the fun of it, land rovers as well. I don't mind people using the Microtransat list for anything vaguely related to sea based robotics. Although i'm sure there are other places specialising more in land based rovers if that's what you are intending to do. If we we do the Google groups is there a way for someone, outside of the group, to search the web and find the group? Can they then join? Or does someone in the group have to add them? I've just started setting up a group. You can vary these things, but for now i've set it to anyone can join and non-members can see the posts. But you have to become a member to post to it. I'll try and do a mass export/import of users this weekend, but if you want to join it now the address is https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/microtransat<https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21forum/microtransat> Colin. John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu...<mailto:joh...@mu...>, Web: http://www.munters.com<http://www.munters.com/> FACEBOOK<http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal> | TWITTER<http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp> | YOUTUBE<http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN<http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> [cid:par...@ab...]<http://www.munters.com/> From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...><mailto:ncr...@gm...> To: mic...@li...<mailto:mic...@li...> Date: 04/28/2017 01:42 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. ________________________________ Google Groups might be a good compromise between email-type communication and forum-type. I just played around with it. You can designate the group as a "web forum" (instead of "email list") and it will act a bit more forum-ish. But for those who don't want to interact that way, you can receive and respond via email. It looks like you can invite people by email address, so if you can export the email list from sourceforge, you might be able to do a mass invite in one go. Perhaps categories could be created that mimic the sourceforge lists (general, rules, tracking). And, will this be only Microtransat or could we open it a bit? Would it make sense to do something like a "Robotic Sailing" group? To include Sailbot discussions? And there are lots of germane projects out there that don't compete in the microtransat that deserve attention (Seacharger, etc.) If that's out of scope, okay. But it's more of what a couple of us were interested in. Craig On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 11:53 AM, Colin Sauze <co...@ab...<mailto:co...@ab...>> wrote: On 28/04/17 16:39, John Lamport wrote: Well there does seem to be some interest in a forum of some kind. Craig Gorton and myself are looking into the different forum host that are out there. Some of them are for free, but they do put ads on the page, others charge a monthly fee. I'm OK with the ads as long as they don't get to annoying. We'll update everyone as we narrow down the options. This topic has come up many times before on here and opinion always seems to be divided roughly 50:50. The obvious solution seems to be something that can work both like a forum and a mailing list. A few years ago as an experiment the rules discussion was moved off to a Yahoo group, but Yahoo groups turned out to be terrible. The following year we tried google groups and that worked much better and seemed to satisfy the requirements. I the rules group has run for long enough to show google groups is good enough and that we should switch over. It also solves a long running issue with sourceforge where messages can sometimes take hours to appear for some people and some recipients see them much faster than others. The problem now is finding an easy way to move ~250 people from the mailing list to google groups. I'll see if I can find a way to do this at the weekend. Colin. Thanks John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu...<mailto:joh...@mu...>, Web: http://www.munters.com<http://www.munters.com/> FACEBOOK<http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal> | TWITTER<http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp> | YOUTUBE<http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN<http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> [cid:par...@ab...]<http://www.munters.com/> From: "BREEN, AIDAN" <A.B...@nu...><mailto:A.B...@nu...> To: "mic...@li..."<mailto:mic...@li...> <mic...@li...><mailto:mic...@li...> Date: 04/27/2017 06:25 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. ________________________________ I'd like to throw in my 2 cents in favour of a forum. Email lists are incredibly difficult to deal with and actively prevent new people getting involved. I'm a huge fan of reddit's discussion format - it's really useful for handling the various tangents without polluting the main topic. ________________________________ From: John Lamport <joh...@mu...><mailto:joh...@mu...> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 8:10:55 PM To: mic...@li...<mailto:mic...@li...> Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. Good point about the Arduino forum, I've used that a lot and have found what I was looking for by searching a subject and finding a thread a few years old. Someone else has already invented the wheel why not see what he did. That's what I'm looking for now, I'm sure there has been many discussions about autonomous sailing but I'm not finding any of it. John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu...<mailto:joh...@mu...>, Web: http://www.munters.com<http://www.munters.com/> FACEBOOK<http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal> | TWITTER<http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp> | YOUTUBE<http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN<http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> [cid:par...@ab...]<http://www.munters.com/> This e-mail is solely intended for the addressee(s) and may be of a confidential nature. If received in error, kindly notify the sender and delete the e-mail. E-mail is susceptible to data corruption, interception, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof. Any opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Munters. From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...><mailto:ncr...@gm...> To: mic...@li...<mailto:mic...@li...> Date: 04/27/2017 04:04 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum? ________________________________ I hear what you're saying, and I think there might be alternatives out there that allow you to interact with it through your inbox, maybe seamlessly. One issue I have with pure email is that someone just joining does not have the history. When I need some info on Arduino, the forums are often excellent, even though I'm looking at posts from a few years ago. Stackoverflow is like that, too, but not subject-based like I'm thinking. On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Duncan Thomas <dun...@gm...<mailto:dun...@gm...>> wrote: On 27 Apr 2017 8:30 pm, "Craig Gorton" <ncr...@gm...<mailto:ncr...@gm...>> wrote: The recent chatter on this email list is great, but all this good info is now buried in my inbox archive. ... Is there any interest in a forum? You can subscribe and get notifications of new posts, just like a mailing list, but the threads are better preserved and searchable, and also can be organized into categories. Personally I'd find that a massive decrease in usability, given my previous experience with forums. I can search my email archives much more easily and usefully than any forum search, I can read offline, I've a permanent copy of everything under my control, and I can use all of the tools I use for other mailing lists on this one too. Forums on the other hand I'd have to go to a website to read/reply, I'd lose the useful archive and the workflow is different for each different forum. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general -- Dr. Colin Sauze Data Manager The National Plant Phenomics Centre Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences Gogerddan Campus Aberystwyth University Ceredigion SY23 3EB Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general -- Dr. Colin Sauze Data Manager Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences Aberystwyth University, Gogerddan, Aberystwyth Ceredigion, UK, SY23 3EB Tel: +44 (0)1970 628687 Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos -------------------------------------------------------------------- Un o’r 4 prifysgol uchaf yn y DU a’r orau yng Nghymru am fodlonrwydd myfyrwyr. (Arolwg Cenedlaethol y Myfyrwyr 2016) www.aber.ac.uk Top 4 UK university and best in Wales for student satisfaction (National Student Survey 2016) www.aber.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general -- Dr. Colin Sauze Data Manager Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences Aberystwyth University, Gogerddan, Aberystwyth Ceredigion, UK, SY23 3EB Tel: +44 (0)1970 628687 Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos -------------------------------------------------------------------- Un o’r 4 prifysgol uchaf yn y DU a’r orau yng Nghymru am fodlonrwydd myfyrwyr. (Arolwg Cenedlaethol y Myfyrwyr 2016) www.aber.ac.uk Top 4 UK university and best in Wales for student satisfaction (National Student Survey 2016) www.aber.ac.uk |
|
From: John L. <joh...@mu...> - 2017-04-28 18:32:21
|
My intent is to have an open forum on autonomous control of both boats and rovers, not limited to MicroTransat or Sailbot. There are plenty of people out there working on these kinds of projects. Some just for the fun of it. I have done lots of searches, autonomous sailing, autonomous vehicles, autonomous control, robotic sailing and many others and have never found a single group that I can participate in. I did find the MircoTransat site and months ago added my name to the general mailing list, other than regular updates from Robin, I've never gotten another email. The other day I responded to one of Robins and now I have gotten several from several different people in the last 3 days. Was I not on the right list until I replied? Also during the last 3 days all most all of the replies have been to Robins original email, with the same subject line, but we have talked about Robins test, I asked about the Pixhawk controller, overheating of a motor, rudder stabilization, and forums. With a forum that could have been 5 separate threads with those who wanted to only responding to the subject they wanted to. I'm not trying to change the world or how the Microtransat group communicates, if your happy with the email list fine. I've been looking for a group of like minded people who want to share what they are working on, or what their interest are, I have yet to find it, So I thought I could open a forum for that discussion. John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, Fax: , E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com From: Colin Sauze <co...@ab...> To: <mic...@li...> Date: 04/28/2017 02:14 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. On 28/04/17 18:56, John Lamport wrote: I would like it open to all, not just MicroTransat or Sailbot. As you say there are plenty of others doing similar project just for the fun of it, land rovers as well. I don't mind people using the Microtransat list for anything vaguely related to sea based robotics. Although i'm sure there are other places specialising more in land based rovers if that's what you are intending to do. If we we do the Google groups is there a way for someone, outside of the group, to search the web and find the group? Can they then join? Or does someone in the group have to add them? I've just started setting up a group. You can vary these things, but for now i've set it to anyone can join and non-members can see the posts. But you have to become a member to post to it. I'll try and do a mass export/import of users this weekend, but if you want to join it now the address is https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/microtransat Colin. John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com FACEBOOK | TWITTER | YOUTUBE | LINKEDIN From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...> To: mic...@li... Date: 04/28/2017 01:42 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. Google Groups might be a good compromise between email-type communication and forum-type. I just played around with it. You can designate the group as a "web forum" (instead of "email list") and it will act a bit more forum-ish. But for those who don't want to interact that way, you can receive and respond via email. It looks like you can invite people by email address, so if you can export the email list from sourceforge, you might be able to do a mass invite in one go. Perhaps categories could be created that mimic the sourceforge lists (general, rules, tracking). And, will this be only Microtransat or could we open it a bit? Would it make sense to do something like a "Robotic Sailing" group? To include Sailbot discussions? And there are lots of germane projects out there that don't compete in the microtransat that deserve attention (Seacharger, etc.) If that's out of scope, okay. But it's more of what a couple of us were interested in. Craig On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 11:53 AM, Colin Sauze <co...@ab...> wrote: On 28/04/17 16:39, John Lamport wrote: Well there does seem to be some interest in a forum of some kind. Craig Gorton and myself are looking into the different forum host that are out there. Some of them are for free, but they do put ads on the page, others charge a monthly fee. I'm OK with the ads as long as they don't get to annoying. We'll update everyone as we narrow down the options. This topic has come up many times before on here and opinion always seems to be divided roughly 50:50. The obvious solution seems to be something that can work both like a forum and a mailing list. A few years ago as an experiment the rules discussion was moved off to a Yahoo group, but Yahoo groups turned out to be terrible. The following year we tried google groups and that worked much better and seemed to satisfy the requirements. I the rules group has run for long enough to show google groups is good enough and that we should switch over. It also solves a long running issue with sourceforge where messages can sometimes take hours to appear for some people and some recipients see them much faster than others. The problem now is finding an easy way to move ~250 people from the mailing list to google groups. I'll see if I can find a way to do this at the weekend. Colin. Thanks John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com FACEBOOK | TWITTER | YOUTUBE | LINKEDIN From: "BREEN, AIDAN" <A.B...@nu...> To: "mic...@li..." <mic...@li...> Date: 04/27/2017 06:25 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. I'd like to throw in my 2 cents in favour of a forum. Email lists are incredibly difficult to deal with and actively prevent new people getting involved. I'm a huge fan of reddit's discussion format - it's really useful for handling the various tangents without polluting the main topic. From: John Lamport <joh...@mu...> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 8:10:55 PM To: mic...@li... Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. Good point about the Arduino forum, I've used that a lot and have found what I was looking for by searching a subject and finding a thread a few years old. Someone else has already invented the wheel why not see what he did. That's what I'm looking for now, I'm sure there has been many discussions about autonomous sailing but I'm not finding any of it. John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com FACEBOOK | TWITTER | YOUTUBE | LINKEDIN This e-mail is solely intended for the addressee(s) and may be of a confidential nature. If received in error, kindly notify the sender and delete the e-mail. E-mail is susceptible to data corruption, interception, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof. Any opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Munters. From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...> To: mic...@li... Date: 04/27/2017 04:04 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum? I hear what you're saying, and I think there might be alternatives out there that allow you to interact with it through your inbox, maybe seamlessly. One issue I have with pure email is that someone just joining does not have the history. When I need some info on Arduino, the forums are often excellent, even though I'm looking at posts from a few years ago. Stackoverflow is like that, too, but not subject-based like I'm thinking. On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Duncan Thomas <dun...@gm...> wrote: On 27 Apr 2017 8:30 pm, "Craig Gorton" <ncr...@gm...> wrote: The recent chatter on this email list is great, but all this good info is now buried in my inbox archive. ... Is there any interest in a forum? You can subscribe and get notifications of new posts, just like a mailing list, but the threads are better preserved and searchable, and also can be organized into categories. Personally I'd find that a massive decrease in usability, given my previous experience with forums. I can search my email archives much more easily and usefully than any forum search, I can read offline, I've a permanent copy of everything under my control, and I can use all of the tools I use for other mailing lists on this one too. Forums on the other hand I'd have to go to a website to read/reply, I'd lose the useful archive and the workflow is different for each different forum. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general -- Dr. Colin Sauze Data Manager The National Plant Phenomics Centre Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences Gogerddan Campus Aberystwyth University Ceredigion SY23 3EB Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general -- Dr. Colin Sauze Data Manager Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences Aberystwyth University, Gogerddan, Aberystwyth Ceredigion, UK, SY23 3EB Tel: +44 (0)1970 628687 Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos -------------------------------------------------------------------- Un o’r 4 prifysgol uchaf yn y DU a’r orau yng Nghymru am fodlonrwydd myfyrwyr. (Arolwg Cenedlaethol y Myfyrwyr 2016) www.aber.ac.uk Top 4 UK university and best in Wales for student satisfaction (National Student Survey 2016) www.aber.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general |
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From: Colin S. <co...@ab...> - 2017-04-28 18:12:31
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On 28/04/17 18:56, John Lamport wrote: I would like it open to all, not just MicroTransat or Sailbot. As you say there are plenty of others doing similar project just for the fun of it, land rovers as well. I don't mind people using the Microtransat list for anything vaguely related to sea based robotics. Although i'm sure there are other places specialising more in land based rovers if that's what you are intending to do. If we we do the Google groups is there a way for someone, outside of the group, to search the web and find the group? Can they then join? Or does someone in the group have to add them? I've just started setting up a group. You can vary these things, but for now i've set it to anyone can join and non-members can see the posts. But you have to become a member to post to it. I'll try and do a mass export/import of users this weekend, but if you want to join it now the address is https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/microtransat Colin. John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu...<mailto:joh...@mu...>, Web: http://www.munters.com FACEBOOK<http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal> | TWITTER<http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp> | YOUTUBE<http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN<http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> [cid:par...@ab...]<http://www.munters.com> From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...><mailto:ncr...@gm...> To: mic...@li...<mailto:mic...@li...> Date: 04/28/2017 01:42 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. ________________________________ Google Groups might be a good compromise between email-type communication and forum-type. I just played around with it. You can designate the group as a "web forum" (instead of "email list") and it will act a bit more forum-ish. But for those who don't want to interact that way, you can receive and respond via email. It looks like you can invite people by email address, so if you can export the email list from sourceforge, you might be able to do a mass invite in one go. Perhaps categories could be created that mimic the sourceforge lists (general, rules, tracking). And, will this be only Microtransat or could we open it a bit? Would it make sense to do something like a "Robotic Sailing" group? To include Sailbot discussions? And there are lots of germane projects out there that don't compete in the microtransat that deserve attention (Seacharger, etc.) If that's out of scope, okay. But it's more of what a couple of us were interested in. Craig On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 11:53 AM, Colin Sauze <co...@ab...<mailto:co...@ab...>> wrote: On 28/04/17 16:39, John Lamport wrote: Well there does seem to be some interest in a forum of some kind. Craig Gorton and myself are looking into the different forum host that are out there. Some of them are for free, but they do put ads on the page, others charge a monthly fee. I'm OK with the ads as long as they don't get to annoying. We'll update everyone as we narrow down the options. This topic has come up many times before on here and opinion always seems to be divided roughly 50:50. The obvious solution seems to be something that can work both like a forum and a mailing list. A few years ago as an experiment the rules discussion was moved off to a Yahoo group, but Yahoo groups turned out to be terrible. The following year we tried google groups and that worked much better and seemed to satisfy the requirements. I the rules group has run for long enough to show google groups is good enough and that we should switch over. It also solves a long running issue with sourceforge where messages can sometimes take hours to appear for some people and some recipients see them much faster than others. The problem now is finding an easy way to move ~250 people from the mailing list to google groups. I'll see if I can find a way to do this at the weekend. Colin. Thanks John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu...<mailto:joh...@mu...>, Web: http://www.munters.com<http://www.munters.com/> FACEBOOK<http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal> | TWITTER<http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp> | YOUTUBE<http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN<http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> [cid:par...@ab...]<http://www.munters.com/> From: "BREEN, AIDAN" <A.B...@nu...><mailto:A.B...@nu...> To: "mic...@li..."<mailto:mic...@li...> <mic...@li...><mailto:mic...@li...> Date: 04/27/2017 06:25 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. ________________________________ I'd like to throw in my 2 cents in favour of a forum. Email lists are incredibly difficult to deal with and actively prevent new people getting involved. I'm a huge fan of reddit's discussion format - it's really useful for handling the various tangents without polluting the main topic. ________________________________ From: John Lamport <joh...@mu...><mailto:joh...@mu...> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 8:10:55 PM To: mic...@li...<mailto:mic...@li...> Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. Good point about the Arduino forum, I've used that a lot and have found what I was looking for by searching a subject and finding a thread a few years old. Someone else has already invented the wheel why not see what he did. That's what I'm looking for now, I'm sure there has been many discussions about autonomous sailing but I'm not finding any of it. John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu...<mailto:joh...@mu...>, Web: http://www.munters.com<http://www.munters.com/> FACEBOOK<http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal> | TWITTER<http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp> | YOUTUBE<http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN<http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> [cid:par...@ab...]<http://www.munters.com/> This e-mail is solely intended for the addressee(s) and may be of a confidential nature. If received in error, kindly notify the sender and delete the e-mail. E-mail is susceptible to data corruption, interception, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof. Any opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Munters. From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...><mailto:ncr...@gm...> To: mic...@li...<mailto:mic...@li...> Date: 04/27/2017 04:04 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum? ________________________________ I hear what you're saying, and I think there might be alternatives out there that allow you to interact with it through your inbox, maybe seamlessly. One issue I have with pure email is that someone just joining does not have the history. When I need some info on Arduino, the forums are often excellent, even though I'm looking at posts from a few years ago. Stackoverflow is like that, too, but not subject-based like I'm thinking. On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Duncan Thomas <dun...@gm...<mailto:dun...@gm...>> wrote: On 27 Apr 2017 8:30 pm, "Craig Gorton" <ncr...@gm...<mailto:ncr...@gm...>> wrote: The recent chatter on this email list is great, but all this good info is now buried in my inbox archive. ... Is there any interest in a forum? You can subscribe and get notifications of new posts, just like a mailing list, but the threads are better preserved and searchable, and also can be organized into categories. Personally I'd find that a massive decrease in usability, given my previous experience with forums. I can search my email archives much more easily and usefully than any forum search, I can read offline, I've a permanent copy of everything under my control, and I can use all of the tools I use for other mailing lists on this one too. Forums on the other hand I'd have to go to a website to read/reply, I'd lose the useful archive and the workflow is different for each different forum. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general -- Dr. Colin Sauze Data Manager The National Plant Phenomics Centre Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences Gogerddan Campus Aberystwyth University Ceredigion SY23 3EB Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li...<mailto:Mic...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general -- Dr. Colin Sauze Data Manager Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences Aberystwyth University, Gogerddan, Aberystwyth Ceredigion, UK, SY23 3EB Tel: +44 (0)1970 628687 Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos -------------------------------------------------------------------- Un o’r 4 prifysgol uchaf yn y DU a’r orau yng Nghymru am fodlonrwydd myfyrwyr. (Arolwg Cenedlaethol y Myfyrwyr 2016) www.aber.ac.uk Top 4 UK university and best in Wales for student satisfaction (National Student Survey 2016) www.aber.ac.uk |
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From: John L. <joh...@mu...> - 2017-04-28 17:56:39
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I would like it open to all, not just MicroTransat or Sailbot. As you say there are plenty of others doing similar project just for the fun of it, land rovers as well. If we we do the Google groups is there a way for someone, outside of the group, to search the web and find the group? Can they then join? Or does someone in the group have to add them? John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, Fax: , E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...> To: mic...@li... Date: 04/28/2017 01:42 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. Google Groups might be a good compromise between email-type communication and forum-type. I just played around with it. You can designate the group as a "web forum" (instead of "email list") and it will act a bit more forum-ish. But for those who don't want to interact that way, you can receive and respond via email. It looks like you can invite people by email address, so if you can export the email list from sourceforge, you might be able to do a mass invite in one go. Perhaps categories could be created that mimic the sourceforge lists (general, rules, tracking). And, will this be only Microtransat or could we open it a bit? Would it make sense to do something like a "Robotic Sailing" group? To include Sailbot discussions? And there are lots of germane projects out there that don't compete in the microtransat that deserve attention (Seacharger, etc.) If that's out of scope, okay. But it's more of what a couple of us were interested in. Craig On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 11:53 AM, Colin Sauze <co...@ab...> wrote: On 28/04/17 16:39, John Lamport wrote: Well there does seem to be some interest in a forum of some kind. Craig Gorton and myself are looking into the different forum host that are out there. Some of them are for free, but they do put ads on the page, others charge a monthly fee. I'm OK with the ads as long as they don't get to annoying. We'll update everyone as we narrow down the options. This topic has come up many times before on here and opinion always seems to be divided roughly 50:50. The obvious solution seems to be something that can work both like a forum and a mailing list. A few years ago as an experiment the rules discussion was moved off to a Yahoo group, but Yahoo groups turned out to be terrible. The following year we tried google groups and that worked much better and seemed to satisfy the requirements. I the rules group has run for long enough to show google groups is good enough and that we should switch over. It also solves a long running issue with sourceforge where messages can sometimes take hours to appear for some people and some recipients see them much faster than others. The problem now is finding an easy way to move ~250 people from the mailing list to google groups. I'll see if I can find a way to do this at the weekend. Colin. Thanks John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com FACEBOOK | TWITTER | YOUTUBE | LINKEDIN From: "BREEN, AIDAN" <A.B...@nu...> To: "mic...@li..." <mic...@li...> Date: 04/27/2017 06:25 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. I'd like to throw in my 2 cents in favour of a forum. Email lists are incredibly difficult to deal with and actively prevent new people getting involved. I'm a huge fan of reddit's discussion format - it's really useful for handling the various tangents without polluting the main topic. From: John Lamport <joh...@mu...> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 8:10:55 PM To: mic...@li... Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. Good point about the Arduino forum, I've used that a lot and have found what I was looking for by searching a subject and finding a thread a few years old. Someone else has already invented the wheel why not see what he did. That's what I'm looking for now, I'm sure there has been many discussions about autonomous sailing but I'm not finding any of it. John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com FACEBOOK | TWITTER | YOUTUBE | LINKEDIN This e-mail is solely intended for the addressee(s) and may be of a confidential nature. If received in error, kindly notify the sender and delete the e-mail. E-mail is susceptible to data corruption, interception, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof. Any opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Munters. From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...> To: mic...@li... Date: 04/27/2017 04:04 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum? I hear what you're saying, and I think there might be alternatives out there that allow you to interact with it through your inbox, maybe seamlessly. One issue I have with pure email is that someone just joining does not have the history. When I need some info on Arduino, the forums are often excellent, even though I'm looking at posts from a few years ago. Stackoverflow is like that, too, but not subject-based like I'm thinking. On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Duncan Thomas <dun...@gm...> wrote: On 27 Apr 2017 8:30 pm, "Craig Gorton" <ncr...@gm...> wrote: The recent chatter on this email list is great, but all this good info is now buried in my inbox archive. ... Is there any interest in a forum? You can subscribe and get notifications of new posts, just like a mailing list, but the threads are better preserved and searchable, and also can be organized into categories. Personally I'd find that a massive decrease in usability, given my previous experience with forums. I can search my email archives much more easily and usefully than any forum search, I can read offline, I've a permanent copy of everything under my control, and I can use all of the tools I use for other mailing lists on this one too. Forums on the other hand I'd have to go to a website to read/reply, I'd lose the useful archive and the workflow is different for each different forum. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general -- Dr. Colin Sauze Data Manager The National Plant Phenomics Centre Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences Gogerddan Campus Aberystwyth University Ceredigion SY23 3EB Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general |
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From: Craig G. <ncr...@gm...> - 2017-04-28 17:39:53
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Google Groups might be a good compromise between email-type communication and forum-type. I just played around with it. You can designate the group as a "web forum" (instead of "email list") and it will act a bit more forum-ish. But for those who don't want to interact that way, you can receive and respond via email. It looks like you can invite people by email address, so if you can export the email list from sourceforge, you might be able to do a mass invite in one go. Perhaps categories could be created that mimic the sourceforge lists (general, rules, tracking). And, will this be only Microtransat or could we open it a bit? Would it make sense to do something like a "Robotic Sailing" group? To include Sailbot discussions? And there are lots of germane projects out there that don't compete in the microtransat that deserve attention (Seacharger, etc.) If that's out of scope, okay. But it's more of what a couple of us were interested in. Craig On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 11:53 AM, Colin Sauze <co...@ab...> wrote: > On 28/04/17 16:39, John Lamport wrote: > > Well there does seem to be some interest in a forum of some kind. Craig > Gorton and myself are looking into the different forum host that are out > there. Some of them are for free, but they do put ads on the page, others > charge a monthly fee. I'm OK with the ads as long as they don't get to > annoying. > > We'll update everyone as we narrow down the options. > > > This topic has come up many times before on here and opinion always seems > to be divided roughly 50:50. The obvious solution seems to be something > that can work both like a forum and a mailing list. > > A few years ago as an experiment the rules discussion was moved off to a > Yahoo group, but Yahoo groups turned out to be terrible. The following year > we tried google groups and that worked much better and seemed to satisfy > the requirements. I the rules group has run for long enough to show google > groups is good enough and that we should switch over. It also solves a long > running issue with sourceforge where messages can sometimes take hours to > appear for some people and some recipients see them much faster than others. > > The problem now is finding an easy way to move ~250 people from the > mailing list to google groups. I'll see if I can find a way to do this at > the weekend. > > Colin. > > > > > > > Thanks > > *John Lamport* > Controls Engineer > Engineering > > *Munters Corporation * > 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA > Tel dir: 978-241-1196, > > > > E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com > > > *FACEBOOK <http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal>** | TWITTER > <http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp> | YOUTUBE > <http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN > <http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters>* > > * <http://www.munters.com>* > From: "BREEN, AIDAN" <A.B...@nu...> > <A.B...@nu...> > To: "mic...@li..." > <mic...@li...> <microtransat-general@lists. > sourceforge.net> <mic...@li...> > Date: 04/27/2017 06:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. > ------------------------------ > > > > I'd like to throw in my 2 cents in favour of a forum. > > Email lists are incredibly difficult to deal with and actively prevent new > people getting involved. > > I'm a huge fan of reddit's discussion format - it's really useful for > handling the various tangents without polluting the main topic. > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* John Lamport <joh...@mu...> <joh...@mu...> > * Sent:* Thursday, April 27, 2017 8:10:55 PM > * To:* mic...@li... > * Subject:* Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. > > Good point about the Arduino forum, I've used that a lot and have found > what I was looking for by searching a subject and finding a thread a few > years old. Someone else has already invented the wheel why not see what he > did. > > That's what I'm looking for now, I'm sure there has been many discussions > about autonomous sailing but I'm not finding any of it. > > * John Lamport* > Controls Engineer > Engineering > > * Munters Corporation * > 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA > Tel dir: 978-241-1196, > > > > E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com > > *FACEBOOK* <http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal>* | **TWITTER* > <http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp>* | **YOUTUBE* > <http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB>* | **LINKEDIN* > <http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> > > > <http://www.munters.com/> > This e-mail is solely intended for the addressee(s) and may be of a > confidential nature. If received in error, kindly notify the sender and > delete the e-mail. E-mail is susceptible to data corruption, interception, > unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive > e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, > interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof. > Any opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not > necessarily reflect the opinions of Munters. > From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...> > <ncr...@gm...> > To: mic...@li... > Date: 04/27/2017 04:04 PM > Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum? > ------------------------------ > > > > I hear what you're saying, and I think there might be alternatives out > there that allow you to interact with it through your inbox, maybe > seamlessly. > > One issue I have with pure email is that someone just joining does not > have the history. When I need some info on Arduino, the forums are often > excellent, even though I'm looking at posts from a few years ago. > Stackoverflow is like that, too, but not subject-based like I'm thinking. > > > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Duncan Thomas <*dun...@gm...* > <dun...@gm...>> wrote: > > > On 27 Apr 2017 8:30 pm, "Craig Gorton" <*ncr...@gm...* > <ncr...@gm...>> wrote: > The recent chatter on this email list is great, but all this good info is > now buried in my inbox archive. > > ... > > Is there any interest in a forum? You can subscribe and get notifications > of new posts, just like a mailing list, but the threads are better > preserved and searchable, and also can be organized into categories. > > Personally I'd find that a massive decrease in usability, given my > previous experience with forums. I can search my email archives much more > easily and usefully than any forum search, I can read offline, I've a > permanent copy of everything under my control, and I can use all of the > tools I use for other mailing lists on this one too. Forums on the other > hand I'd have to go to a website to read/reply, I'd lose the useful archive > and the workflow is different for each different forum. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! *http://sdm.link/slashdot* > <http://sdm.link/slashdot> > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > *Mic...@li...* > <Mic...@li...> > *https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general* > <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! *http://sdm.link/slashdot* > <http://sdm.link/slashdot>_______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > *https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general* > <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot______ > _________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing lis...@li...://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > > > -- > Dr. Colin Sauze > Data Manager > The National Plant Phenomics Centre > Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences > Gogerddan Campus > Aberystwyth University > Ceredigion > SY23 3EB > > Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > |
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From: Colin S. <co...@ab...> - 2017-04-28 15:53:13
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On 28/04/17 16:39, John Lamport wrote: > Well there does seem to be some interest in a forum of some kind. > Craig Gorton and myself are looking into the different forum host that > are out there. Some of them are for free, but they do put ads on the > page, others charge a monthly fee. I'm OK with the ads as long as they > don't get to annoying. > > We'll update everyone as we narrow down the options. This topic has come up many times before on here and opinion always seems to be divided roughly 50:50. The obvious solution seems to be something that can work both like a forum and a mailing list. A few years ago as an experiment the rules discussion was moved off to a Yahoo group, but Yahoo groups turned out to be terrible. The following year we tried google groups and that worked much better and seemed to satisfy the requirements. I the rules group has run for long enough to show google groups is good enough and that we should switch over. It also solves a long running issue with sourceforge where messages can sometimes take hours to appear for some people and some recipients see them much faster than others. The problem now is finding an easy way to move ~250 people from the mailing list to google groups. I'll see if I can find a way to do this at the weekend. Colin. > > > Thanks > > *John Lamport* > Controls Engineer > Engineering > > *Munters Corporation * > 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA > Tel dir: 978-241-1196, > > > > E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com > > > *FACEBOOK <http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal>**| TWITTER > <http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp>| YOUTUBE > <http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN > <http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters>* > > > *<http://www.munters.com>* > From: "BREEN, AIDAN" <A.B...@nu...> > To: "mic...@li..." > <mic...@li...> > Date: 04/27/2017 06:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > I'd like to throw in my 2 cents in favour of a forum. > > Email lists are incredibly difficult to deal with and actively prevent > new people getting involved. > > I'm a huge fan of reddit's discussion format - it's really useful for > handling the various tangents without polluting the main topic. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* John Lamport <joh...@mu...>* > Sent:* Thursday, April 27, 2017 8:10:55 PM* > To:* mic...@li...* > Subject:* Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. > > Good point about the Arduino forum, I've used that a lot and have > found what I was looking for by searching a subject and finding a > thread a few years old. Someone else has already invented the wheel > why not see what he did. > > That's what I'm looking for now, I'm sure there has been many > discussions about autonomous sailing but I'm not finding any of it. > * > John Lamport* > Controls Engineer > Engineering > * > Munters Corporation * > 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA > Tel dir: 978-241-1196, > > > > E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com > <http://www.munters.com/> > > *FACEBOOK* <http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal>*| **TWITTER* > <http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp>*| **YOUTUBE* > <http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB>*| **LINKEDIN* > <http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> > > > <http://www.munters.com/> > This e-mail is solely intended for the addressee(s) and may be of a > confidential nature. If received in error, kindly notify the sender > and delete the e-mail. E-mail is susceptible to data corruption, > interception, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we > only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for > any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or > any consequences thereof. Any opinions expressed in this message are > those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of > Munters. > From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...> > To: mic...@li... > Date: 04/27/2017 04:04 PM > Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > I hear what you're saying, and I think there might be alternatives out > there that allow you to interact with it through your inbox, maybe > seamlessly. > > One issue I have with pure email is that someone just joining does not > have the history. When I need some info on Arduino, the forums are > often excellent, even though I'm looking at posts from a few years > ago. Stackoverflow is like that, too, but not subject-based like I'm > thinking. > > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Duncan Thomas > <_duncan.thomas@gmail.com_ <mailto:dun...@gm...>> wrote: > > > On 27 Apr 2017 8:30 pm, "Craig Gorton" <_ncraiggorton@gmail.com_ > <mailto:ncr...@gm...>> wrote: > The recent chatter on this email list is great, but all this good info > is now buried in my inbox archive. > > ... > > Is there any interest in a forum? You can subscribe and get > notifications of new posts, just like a mailing list, but the threads > are better preserved and searchable, and also can be organized into > categories. > > Personally I'd find that a massive decrease in usability, given my > previous experience with forums. I can search my email archives much > more easily and usefully than any forum search, I can read offline, > I've a permanent copy of everything under my control, and I can use > all of the tools I use for other mailing lists on this one too. Forums > on the other hand I'd have to go to a website to read/reply, I'd lose > the useful archive and the workflow is different for each different forum. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! _http://sdm.link/slashdot_ > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list_ > __M...@li....net_ > <mailto:Mic...@li...>_ > __https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general_ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! > _http://sdm.link/slashdot________________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li....net_ > __https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general_ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! > http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general -- Dr. Colin Sauze Data Manager The National Plant Phenomics Centre Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences Gogerddan Campus Aberystwyth University Ceredigion SY23 3EB Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos |
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From: Andy E. <co...@gm...> - 2017-04-28 15:43:15
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I am willing to host for free, shoot me an email if your interested. Also google groups are a good option as well. On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 11:39 AM, John Lamport <joh...@mu...> wrote: > Well there does seem to be some interest in a forum of some kind. Craig > Gorton and myself are looking into the different forum host that are out > there. Some of them are for free, but they do put ads on the page, others > charge a monthly fee. I'm OK with the ads as long as they don't get to > annoying. > > We'll update everyone as we narrow down the options. > > Thanks > > *John Lamport* > Controls Engineer > Engineering > > *Munters Corporation * > 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA > Tel dir: 978-241-1196 <(978)%20241-1196>, > > > > E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com > > > *FACEBOOK <http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal>** | TWITTER > <http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp> | YOUTUBE > <http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN > <http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters>* > > * <http://www.munters.com>* > From: "BREEN, AIDAN" <A.B...@nu...> > To: "mic...@li..." < > mic...@li...> > Date: 04/27/2017 06:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. > ------------------------------ > > > > I'd like to throw in my 2 cents in favour of a forum. > > Email lists are incredibly difficult to deal with and actively prevent new > people getting involved. > > I'm a huge fan of reddit's discussion format - it's really useful for > handling the various tangents without polluting the main topic. > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* John Lamport <joh...@mu...> > * Sent:* Thursday, April 27, 2017 8:10:55 PM > * To:* mic...@li... > * Subject:* Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. > > Good point about the Arduino forum, I've used that a lot and have found > what I was looking for by searching a subject and finding a thread a few > years old. Someone else has already invented the wheel why not see what he > did. > > That's what I'm looking for now, I'm sure there has been many discussions > about autonomous sailing but I'm not finding any of it. > > * John Lamport* > Controls Engineer > Engineering > > * Munters Corporation * > 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA > Tel dir: 978-241-1196 <(978)%20241-1196>, > > > > E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com > > *FACEBOOK* <http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal>* | **TWITTER* > <http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp>* | **YOUTUBE* > <http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB>* | **LINKEDIN* > <http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters> > > > <http://www.munters.com/> > This e-mail is solely intended for the addressee(s) and may be of a > confidential nature. If received in error, kindly notify the sender and > delete the e-mail. E-mail is susceptible to data corruption, interception, > unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive > e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, > interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof. > Any opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not > necessarily reflect the opinions of Munters. > From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...> > To: mic...@li... > Date: 04/27/2017 04:04 PM > Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum? > ------------------------------ > > > > I hear what you're saying, and I think there might be alternatives out > there that allow you to interact with it through your inbox, maybe > seamlessly. > > One issue I have with pure email is that someone just joining does not > have the history. When I need some info on Arduino, the forums are often > excellent, even though I'm looking at posts from a few years ago. > Stackoverflow is like that, too, but not subject-based like I'm thinking. > > > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Duncan Thomas <*dun...@gm...* > <dun...@gm...>> wrote: > > > On 27 Apr 2017 8:30 pm, "Craig Gorton" <*ncr...@gm...* > <ncr...@gm...>> wrote: > The recent chatter on this email list is great, but all this good info is > now buried in my inbox archive. > > ... > > Is there any interest in a forum? You can subscribe and get notifications > of new posts, just like a mailing list, but the threads are better > preserved and searchable, and also can be organized into categories. > > Personally I'd find that a massive decrease in usability, given my > previous experience with forums. I can search my email archives much more > easily and usefully than any forum search, I can read offline, I've a > permanent copy of everything under my control, and I can use all of the > tools I use for other mailing lists on this one too. Forums on the other > hand I'd have to go to a website to read/reply, I'd lose the useful archive > and the workflow is different for each different forum. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! *http://sdm.link/slashdot* > <http://sdm.link/slashdot> > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > *Mic...@li...* > <Mic...@li...> > *https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general* > <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! *http://sdm.link/slashdot* > <http://sdm.link/slashdot>_______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > *https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general* > <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot______ > _________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > -- -Andy Evans |
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From: John L. <joh...@mu...> - 2017-04-28 15:39:08
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Well there does seem to be some interest in a forum of some kind. Craig Gorton and myself are looking into the different forum host that are out there. Some of them are for free, but they do put ads on the page, others charge a monthly fee. I'm OK with the ads as long as they don't get to annoying. We'll update everyone as we narrow down the options. Thanks John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, Fax: , E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com From: "BREEN, AIDAN" <A.B...@nu...> To: "mic...@li..." <mic...@li...> Date: 04/27/2017 06:25 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. I'd like to throw in my 2 cents in favour of a forum. Email lists are incredibly difficult to deal with and actively prevent new people getting involved. I'm a huge fan of reddit's discussion format - it's really useful for handling the various tangents without polluting the main topic. From: John Lamport <joh...@mu...> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 8:10:55 PM To: mic...@li... Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. Good point about the Arduino forum, I've used that a lot and have found what I was looking for by searching a subject and finding a thread a few years old. Someone else has already invented the wheel why not see what he did. That's what I'm looking for now, I'm sure there has been many discussions about autonomous sailing but I'm not finding any of it. John Lamport Controls Engineer Engineering Munters Corporation 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA Tel dir: 978-241-1196, E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com FACEBOOK | TWITTER | YOUTUBE | LINKEDIN This e-mail is solely intended for the addressee(s) and may be of a confidential nature. If received in error, kindly notify the sender and delete the e-mail. E-mail is susceptible to data corruption, interception, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof. Any opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Munters. From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...> To: mic...@li... Date: 04/27/2017 04:04 PM Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum? I hear what you're saying, and I think there might be alternatives out there that allow you to interact with it through your inbox, maybe seamlessly. One issue I have with pure email is that someone just joining does not have the history. When I need some info on Arduino, the forums are often excellent, even though I'm looking at posts from a few years ago. Stackoverflow is like that, too, but not subject-based like I'm thinking. On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Duncan Thomas <dun...@gm...> wrote: On 27 Apr 2017 8:30 pm, "Craig Gorton" <ncr...@gm...> wrote: The recent chatter on this email list is great, but all this good info is now buried in my inbox archive. ... Is there any interest in a forum? You can subscribe and get notifications of new posts, just like a mailing list, but the threads are better preserved and searchable, and also can be organized into categories. Personally I'd find that a massive decrease in usability, given my previous experience with forums. I can search my email archives much more easily and usefully than any forum search, I can read offline, I've a permanent copy of everything under my control, and I can use all of the tools I use for other mailing lists on this one too. Forums on the other hand I'd have to go to a website to read/reply, I'd lose the useful archive and the workflow is different for each different forum. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Microtransat-general mailing list Mic...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general |
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From: Anna F. <ann...@ha...> - 2017-04-28 06:58:26
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Dear all, I agree that this is a problem with the IRSC that we should attempt to fix. I regret that we did not look into it more in 2015 when we hosted. We should discuss this at the 2017 conference to have an open access solution for 2018. That said, you can often contact authors (or someone else that probably has the paper you have interest in) and get a copy of the paper you are interested in. Much more hassle, of course. Best wishes, Anna Anna Friebe, MSc PROJEKTLEDARE/ PROJECT MANAGER ÅLAND SAILING ROBOTS SJÖFARTSAKADEMIN HÖGSKOLAN PÅ ÅLAND ÅLAND UNIVERSITY OF APPLIED SCIENCES Neptunig 17 PB 1010, AX-22111 Mariehamn, Åland, Finland +358 (0)457 344 9922 www.ha.ax On 27 April 2017 at 19:09, Colin Sauze <co...@ab...> wrote: > On 27/04/17 11:54, Duncan Thomas wrote: > > On 26 Apr 2017 7:49 pm, "Colin Sauze" <co...@ab...> wrote: > > There's also been a scientific conference attached to WRSC since it > started in 2008. Every year there has been a published proceedings of all > the papers in the conference, unfortunately since 2011 these have been done > by Springer and are behind a paywall unless you're on a network who's owner > has paid Springer a small fortune. > > > Any plan to fix this? I'm extremely reluctant to ever contribute to the > conference since it is pouring money into the pockets of a private company > who aren't contributing to the work in any meaningful way, but are taking > away my rights to do anything useful with my work afterwards. > > > As other's have said already alternatives have been considered, but to > date they've been dismissed. > > My feeling is that they key thing Springer gains us something that's easy > to search for in future and unlikely to disappear from the internet. The > IRSC2010 proceedings were published on the event website, which has since > gone offline and I've not managed to find any digital copies of it yet (but > I do have a paper copy). At least with Springer this is unlikely to be > repeated. Saying that I didn't feel that Springer was great value for the > IRSC2012 which I ran and I've since recommended we find a better solution. > > There has been an recent trend of trying to make research publications > freely available (known as "Open Access"). In the UK all publicly funded > research is now supposed to be published in open access journals, but > little attention is given to conference papers. I just did a quick google > search for ways to publish open access conference proceedings. It looks > like Springer do now offer an open access option for conferences, but it > doesn't say how much they charge for this (journals typically charge $1k-3k > per article!). There is also Open Proceedings (http://openproceedings.org/ > html/pages/index.html) run by the University of Konstanz who will publish > your proceedings online for free. This looks like it might be good enough > to satisfy the "looks like proper research" and "free to access" criteria. > > Colin. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing lis...@li...://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > > > -- > Dr. Colin Sauze > Data Manager > The National Plant Phenomics Centre > Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences > Gogerddan Campus > Aberystwyth University > Ceredigion > SY23 3EB > > Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > |
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From: Andrej O. <and...@gm...> - 2017-04-28 05:47:25
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I would recommend discourse. https://www.discourse.org/ It's a widely used relatively new forum. > > I'd like to throw in my 2 cents in favour of a forum. > > > Email lists are incredibly difficult to deal with and actively prevent > new people getting involved. > > > I'm a huge fan of reddit's discussion format - it's really useful for > handling the various tangents without polluting the main topic. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* John Lamport <joh...@mu...> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 27, 2017 8:10:55 PM > *To:* mic...@li... > *Subject:* Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum?. > Good point about the Arduino forum, I've used that a lot and have > found what I was looking for by searching a subject and finding a > thread a few years old. Someone else has already invented the wheel > why not see what he did. > > That's what I'm looking for now, I'm sure there has been many > discussions about autonomous sailing but I'm not finding any of it. > > *John Lamport* > Controls Engineer > Engineering > > *Munters Corporation * > 79 Monroe Street Amesbury MA 01913 USA > Tel dir: 978-241-1196, > > > > E-mail: joh...@mu..., Web: http://www.munters.com > > *FACEBOOK <http://www.facebook.com/muntersglobal>**| TWITTER > <http://www.twitter.com/MuntersCorp>| YOUTUBE > <http://www.youtube.com/user/MuntersAB> | LINKEDIN > <http://www.linkedin.com/company/munters>* > > *<http://www.munters.com>* > This e-mail is solely intended for the addressee(s) and may be of a > confidential nature. If received in error, kindly notify the sender > and delete the e-mail. E-mail is susceptible to data corruption, > interception, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we > only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for > any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or > any consequences thereof. Any opinions expressed in this message are > those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of > Munters. > From: Craig Gorton <ncr...@gm...> > To: mic...@li... > Date: 04/27/2017 04:04 PM > Subject: Re: [Microtransat] Any interest in a forum? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > I hear what you're saying, and I think there might be alternatives out > there that allow you to interact with it through your inbox, maybe > seamlessly. > > One issue I have with pure email is that someone just joining does not > have the history. When I need some info on Arduino, the forums are > often excellent, even though I'm looking at posts from a few years > ago. Stackoverflow is like that, too, but not subject-based like I'm > thinking. > > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Duncan Thomas > <_duncan.thomas@gmail.com_ <mailto:dun...@gm...>> wrote: > > > On 27 Apr 2017 8:30 pm, "Craig Gorton" <_ncraiggorton@gmail.com_ > <mailto:ncr...@gm...>> wrote: > The recent chatter on this email list is great, but all this good info > is now buried in my inbox archive. > > ... > > Is there any interest in a forum? You can subscribe and get > notifications of new posts, just like a mailing list, but the threads > are better preserved and searchable, and also can be organized into > categories. > > Personally I'd find that a massive decrease in usability, given my > previous experience with forums. I can search my email archives much > more easily and usefully than any forum search, I can read offline, > I've a permanent copy of everything under my control, and I can use > all of the tools I use for other mailing lists on this one too. Forums > on the other hand I'd have to go to a website to read/reply, I'd lose > the useful archive and the workflow is different for each different > forum. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! _http://sdm.link/slashdot_ > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list_ > __M...@li....net_ > <mailto:Mic...@li...>_ > __https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general_ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! > http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > _______________________________________________ > Microtransat-general mailing list > Mic...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general |
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From: Robin L. <gp...@co...> - 2017-04-28 05:44:43
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Hi Folks. I'm up early, just having added a significant update to
the "Snoopy" page Latest News on <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm">www.gpss.co.uk/autop.htm</a> <br>
<br>
I saw the discussion about servos, discussed in emails with Andy and
others, and have used some below ....<br>
<br>
... I should have said earlier that the rudder servo is the weak
link in Snoopy's total boat systems.<br>
<br>
I did 24/7 testing of Acoms AS-17 servos at home, for periods
lasting typically up to 4 months.<br>
The MTBF ( Mean Time Between Failure ) was less than 3 months, so
the MTBF of a Snoopy boat will be less.<br>
I did not need to draw a reliability diagram to see that. <br>
<br>
If the servo fails, the boat will drift, but hopefully we can track
it.<br>
If you look at the tracks on all attempts on Microtransat, very few
had their autopilot working for more than a day or two.<br>
This is easy to see with Snoopy's SPOT tracking: no 24 hour
(Microtransat) delay, when the autopilot steering fails<br>
- by comparing the track with the known drift near there due to wind
and tide.<br>
<br>
BUT, my poor build quality over the years, even using good products
and materials, is the cause of almost all our Team-Joker failures.<br>
Roy knows better than anyone how I have often had poorly soldered
joints in the power wiring.<br>
Over the years, particularly during 24/7 testing on Bray Lake,
everything has failed at some time.<br>
e.g. I now use a Z-bend of steel* wire as the push rod from servo to
rudder linkage.<br>
We have even had standard servo welded cleats fail after many weeks
of use.<br>
* I must now find stainless steel wire so it is not magnetic, but
any resulting compass error seems small in Boat11.<br>
<br>
In my career I have always favoured "BUY over BUILD".<br>
Few hobbyists who choose to BUILD ( sometimes re-invent the wheel )
bring testing of reliability into their plans. It takes time !<br>
<br>
I have all the servos ( mostly that AS-17 ) that have failed, in
case anyone wants to strip them down and examine them. Nobody has
:-)<br>
<br>
One of my Snoopy blogs (somewhere) has the detail of one that looked
- from it's spec - as if it would be better - it was not, but worse.<br>
<br>
It's the old story in engineering: having to prioritise what you do,
if you want to meet a timeframe. e.g. Boat11 ready in late summer.<br>
Great if I had a large team of engineers, working 40 hours / week on
various project tasks - but I don't. Those were the days :-)<br>
<br>
Robin<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.gpss.co.uk">www.gpss.co.uk</a><br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 28/04/2017 01:13, Chris Diacov
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoPlainText">Hello Duncan,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I’d be interested to hear more about the
dual servo idea– how do you plan to engage / disengage the
idle (back-up) servo? Clutch? Other mechanism?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">On the original question: here are a
couple more options for unloading / protecting the rudder
servos:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->Elastic double-side linkage.
Dampens shocks from accidental impacts, provides gradual ramp
up of counter-torque. On the other hand, difficult to
calibrate, can add a significant amount of error / deviation
and potentially flutter;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->Eccentric pulleys that push a
tiller. The benefit comes from translating a portion the back
force to normal (compression) force on the edge of the pulley,
thus decreasing the amount of counter-torque the servo has to
fight (at the cost of increased radial load on the
bushings/bearings).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">At the end of the day, I think the added
complexity and potential for failure outweighed any benefits.
Balanced rudder and an oversized metal gear servo would still
be your best bet. Maybe add a simple in-line damper in your
linkage to prevent impact damage (assuming the rudder and
shaft survived). Having 2 independent rudders each with their
own servo may give you extra chance of survival. Until both of
them fail and get stuck at Right Full :)
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">--<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Chris, Project Pilotfish<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.projectpilotfish.com">http://www.projectpilotfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="_MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Duncan Thomas [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dun...@gm...">mailto:dun...@gm...</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 27, 2017 12:45 PM<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 27 Apr 2017 7:40 pm, "Andrej
Osusky" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:and...@gm...">and...@gm...</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black;background:white">What</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;background:white">
limits the life expectancy? (Gearbox? Brushless
motor? Bearings? Encoder? ...)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">While I've no evidence for it yet, I
suspect that the rudder servo experiences far more back
force than most servo applications, and so most basic
commercial servos won't last well. I plan on looking at
some of the open source servo controllers, so that I can
add code to detect when the servo is trying to fight too
much load, and just let it flap for a while under that
circumstance (while logging the event). Basically, if it
is driving the motor hard but losing, then stop trying for
a while, but let the rest of the system know. The same
eventing system can also detect servo failure, so you
could potentially fit two servos, with the backup servo
free rotating until needed. That wouldn't help if the
first servo stuffed a mechanical failure that caused it to
jamb, but I've not yet seen that as a failure mode in
practice.<o:p></o:p></p>
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Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Microtransat-general mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Mic...@li...">Mic...@li...</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/microtransat-general</a>
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From: Chris D. <ch...@pr...> - 2017-04-28 00:28:47
|
Hello Duncan, I’d be interested to hear more about the dual servo idea– how do you plan to engage / disengage the idle (back-up) servo? Clutch? Other mechanism? On the original question: here are a couple more options for unloading / protecting the rudder servos: 1. Elastic double-side linkage. Dampens shocks from accidental impacts, provides gradual ramp up of counter-torque. On the other hand, difficult to calibrate, can add a significant amount of error / deviation and potentially flutter; 2. Eccentric pulleys that push a tiller. The benefit comes from translating a portion the back force to normal (compression) force on the edge of the pulley, thus decreasing the amount of counter-torque the servo has to fight (at the cost of increased radial load on the bushings/bearings). At the end of the day, I think the added complexity and potential for failure outweighed any benefits. Balanced rudder and an oversized metal gear servo would still be your best bet. Maybe add a simple in-line damper in your linkage to prevent impact damage (assuming the rudder and shaft survived). Having 2 independent rudders each with their own servo may give you extra chance of survival. Until both of them fail and get stuck at Right Full :) -- Chris, Project Pilotfish http://www.projectpilotfish.com From: Duncan Thomas [mailto:dun...@gm...] Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 12:45 PM On 27 Apr 2017 7:40 pm, "Andrej Osusky" <and...@gm...<mailto:and...@gm...>> wrote: What limits the life expectancy? (Gearbox? Brushless motor? Bearings? Encoder? ...) While I've no evidence for it yet, I suspect that the rudder servo experiences far more back force than most servo applications, and so most basic commercial servos won't last well. I plan on looking at some of the open source servo controllers, so that I can add code to detect when the servo is trying to fight too much load, and just let it flap for a while under that circumstance (while logging the event). Basically, if it is driving the motor hard but losing, then stop trying for a while, but let the rest of the system know. The same eventing system can also detect servo failure, so you could potentially fit two servos, with the backup servo free rotating until needed. That wouldn't help if the first servo stuffed a mechanical failure that caused it to jamb, but I've not yet seen that as a failure mode in practice. |
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