State of the "log" 2025

Here we are, the eighth annual State of the ’log. Can you believe? …eight times this has happened.

Eight time’s a charm?

Hopefully.

Seven times was a charm.

This eighth one is going to be a charm, too.

Oh, my gosh… Don’t say the word charm, Jerod…

Oh, my goodness.

Oh, my gosh… Hey, you know what I’m saying, right? Y’all out there…

Welcome, everyone. Welcome back, hopefully, or welcome for the first time… If this is your first time listening, this is not how it normally goes, but…

It normally goes like this once a year.

This is how it always goes eight times.

That’s right.

And we have eight voicemails to listen to, from some of our longtime listeners, and some newer listeners… So that is cool.

Maybe a little recap on what this is. What do you think? A little recap on what this is.

Go ahead, recap it.

I was just thinking about that, because you mentioned the new listener potential, and I was thinking, like, a tiny little recap. So State of the ‘log - we’re called The Changelog, so this is State of the ’log… And all year we worked tirelessly, Jerod, to log, I would say the developer journey, from the new project, to the sale of a company, to a new side project, to an acquisition… You name it. The latest platform that may be out there, the newest framework in the JavaScript world, which is like on the daily… Bun acquisitions, just to name specifically, you know… And as we talk to these humans - not just these machines; these humans in this world - we get to podcast, and share, and all that good stuff. And this is a sort of an examination of that. But first, we invite our listenership, those folks that are listening to this show, to submit a voicemail. And then we hand that voicemail. Am I stealing some of your thunder here? I know you do a good job of like doing this. Am I stealing some of this?

No, man. Go for it.

Okay, cool. Breakmaster Cylinder behind the scenes produces our music… I won’t share the real name, because he’s still anonymous… But Breakmaster Cylinder is beloved by us; he produces all of our music, we love that. And Jerod collects his voicemails… I stay out of it because I want to be surprised in this moment… I’ve listened to none of these yet. And so each year we do this State of the ‘log. We kind of go back through, we invite folks to send voicemails, what they love about this show, what they don’t love about this show, and then Breakmaster makes these cool remixes, which are super-cool. And we have fun listening to those, and just kind of like diving in… And for those who may be new and don’t know me, I don’t like watching movie trailers. So these are like movie trailers. These are like little voicemail movie trailers that I can’t watch, because it ruins the movie. And so I’ve heard none of these, this is fresh for me… And I’ll hand it back to you, Jerod. Hopefully, I did a pretty decent job of describing State of ’log.

That’s right. So this is the movie, and we’re about to watch it together, or listen to it, as is the case, with voicemail. So thank you to all of you who wrote in, and to everybody who listened throughout the year. We’ve put out a lot of pods, almost 150, if you count News. If you take News out, that’s almost a hundred… As each of our three legs of our table did about 50 episodes, as we tend to do per year. And so that’s a lot… It is tough to pick faves, but we’ve done the work, and our listeners have done the work… And let’s kick off with our first voicemail.

Now, I know what you’re thinking… In what order do these voicemails come? Do we do it chronologically, by reception? No. Do we do it alphabetically, by last name? No. Do we do it alphabetically by first name? Yes.

How do we do it?! How do we do it?!?

[laughs] Alphabetically by first name, because that’s the way Finder arranged them…

Okay…

The files came in, and they’re just “Put your first name first”, and so I guess Andrew Patton, with first name Andrew, gets to go first. So let’s listen to Andrew’s voicemail.

[00:07:47.02]

Hello, Changelog family. First time leaving a voicemail, which is very exciting… Though I’ve been listening for many years. I checked, and Changelog takes home the gold for my most listened to podcast in 2025, at 105 hours… Which would have been 111 and a half hours at 1X, because I only use smart speed, so as not to ruin those banging beats…

This year I really enjoyed Friends #75, with Mat Ryer as a pianist. It was a joy hearing him switch from guitar to piano for that episode… And the Weird and Wonderful Mat World episode, which was episode #90, was also great. The entire Pipe Dream saga in the Kaizen episodes this year was very fun, including that dramatic onstage live launch…

The Changelog interview 635 about TigerBeetle was fascinating. Changelog Friends #96 with Steve Yegge is always entertaining, and certainly interesting… The interview #664 with Adam Jacob was another really interesting and enlightening episode…

All the Changelog Beats releases and everything that Breakmaster Cylinder provides… I really missed JS Party this year. I was open for a few more dysfunctional developer episodes, but I love the multiple three-way conversations between Jerod, Adam, and Nick Nisi, including Friends #89, #102 and the most recent. They are always very funny, they’re always very relevant to the issues of the day, and I find it somewhat mind-blowing when I get a peek into the habits and methods of Nick Nisi.

Thank you all for all you do, and looking forward to a great 2026.

Hm… The habits and methods.

Yeah, that’s a good show title.

That’s cool. That’s cool, man.

[laughs] Next time Nick’s on, we should have one called “The Habits and Methods of Nick Nisi.”

I do enjoy Nick as well. I concur with everything – what was his name again, I’m sorry?

Andrew.

With everything Andrew said. I was too busy listening to catch the first name, I’m sorry, Andrew. But yeah, I concur. Adam Jacob, Nick Nisi, Mat Ryer playing the guitar… I mean, that’s just podcast gold there.

So I have collated the list… I’ll put that in the show notes. We’ll have all these favorite episodes listed. Andrew listed 11. So… That’s a lot. Not the most. There is somebody who’s going to list more than 11. It’s probably going to be you, Adam… But in addition to Adam, there’s somebody else - to set up a teaser there; not a spoiler, but a teaser - who’s going to outdo Andrew… But still, that’s a good list. And for our lists, we try not to overlap listener lists, and so you and I have both created our own lists, but however, we’re kind of crossing off the ones that they mentioned as they go, so that we don’t have too much overlap… Because that’s just repetition, and we don’t at all want to keep dry around here.

He took a lot of my favorites though, I’m not going to lie. A lot of his favorites were my favorites… And speaking of JS Party and Nick Nisi, and Amal Hussein, who was on the show last year, but didn’t quite hit the three-timer pace that Nick hit and that Mat Ryer hit… She’s coming back on the show in January. So Amal actually did reach out recently and say “Hey, how come Nick’s on the show more than I am?” And I just said “I can’t get rid of this guy. He’s always hanging around. Whereas you disappear for a while and then come back. So you’re always welcome, Amal…” And she’s coming soon, so a little more JS Party sprinkled in upcoming episodes.

Yeah.

Alright, do you want the Andrew Patton remix?

Hit it!

Here we go.

[00:11:44.23]

Hello, Changelog family. I’ve been a pianist for many years, which is very exciting… I was hoping for a few more banging piano beats from Breakmaster Cylinder… They are always very dramatic, and certainly interesting. Looking forward to a weird and wonderful 2026.

There you go.

Those are special moments right there, man… Listening to those banging beats, a sweet voicemail remix like that… And a nice little crazy outro. If you knew Breakmaster like we know Breakmaster - very fitting. It’s a very fitting outro to the banging beats.

100 percent. Alright. Up next, because - hey, his name starts with a B… It’s our old friend, and I think every year caller inner, hopefully…

Come on now…

It’s Brett Cannon.

Brett Cannon…!

Here we go!

[00:12:44.17]

Hello, Adam and Jerod. It’s Brett Cannon, calling for that annual tradition to see whether I can read dates appropriately while I tell you about my favorite episodes that I got to listen to this year. So I’m going to start off with The Power of the Button, which you actually recorded in 2024, but didn’t publish until 2025, so I’m safe… I found that episode kind of fun just to have that twist on it of talking about the physicality of the world, and just how that kind of ties into technology, and just kind of the different approach of just seeing how things tie in on both sides of both the physical and the software for all of us.

The next episode I liked a lot was the “1,000 Times Faster Financial Database” with Joran from TigerBeetle. I just thought that was a really cool chat to show that sometimes - you know what? You don’t have to take the general solution. Sometimes it’s okay to actually build something from scratch if it leads to a simple solution that really gets you what you’re after.

I also really enjoyed the chat with Bert Hubert, Build Software That Lasts. It’s just a lot of good advice that I think a lot of us could stand to listen to consistently.

And then finally, the wsl.exe – cat hello.cs episode I liked a lot, for two reasons. One, Adam’s total infatuation with WSL was rather infectious and great to hear… And also, I wanted to give a letter of recommendation for Mads. He is an awesome person. And with that, to give Breakmaster Cylinder something to work with - Andrea, did not listen to any of these episodes, so she loves them, as does our kiddo. Thanks.

So to bring everybody else in on that reference of Andrea at the end - go back to previous states of the ‘log in which BMC created a hilarious remix of Brett’s previous message, where the whole thing is centered around his wife Andrea… Which was one of my favorites from previous years.

I’m not gonna lie, BMC’s remix of this one - also one of my favorites. But first, do you want to address Brett’s actual content of what he had to say, or should we…?

Let’s see…

Power of the Button.

Power of the Button was definitely powerful… And that was a – I think I mentioned the Good for Nothing Button book in that show… And that just brings like the titling of our shows, which I think we may introduce a new category, which is Best Title… That was a fun title for me, obviously for the content, but then also the Good for Nothing Button book that I’ve read with my kids. You know, I don’t know where the infectious feelings I had towards WSL went…

Yeah, I was gonna say…

…but I think they went with Windows, out the door, to some degree… I’m such a wishy-washy operating system person. I can’t help it. I’m a literal – I would say an OS hopper, not even a distro hopper.

You are a hopper. You want to call it a sampler, but it’s more of a hopper, I think.

Yeah, it kind of is, honestly… You know, I just want to love Windows, and I just wish they would get it together. there’s so much good stuff in there, and just too much AI getting slapped around. Anyways… WSL is really cool though, for Windows. I think if for some reason you’ve got to be in that world, where you have no choice because that’s where your platform is, your applications are, your company’s at, then – you know, it is what it is, and that’s what you’ve got to do. I think WSL is the next best thing, and super-cool for that to be embedded in Windows. That to me is a technological feat that I love… So if I had to be in Windows, I could only be there happily because of WSL.

[00:16:09.04] Right. Which didn’t exist back when I switched away…

No.

…and I think it’s very cool that it does exist… But I just don’t have that problem anymore.

Can we address this title, though? wsl.exe – cat hello.cs. That was your title, Jerod.

That’s right.

You came up with that, all on your own.

I did.

And when you said it to me, I was like “Ship it, man. Just ship it.”

Well, I had a hard time naming that one, because it was two interviews. And so it was the one about WSL and then the other one with Mads - is it Torgersen? I can’t remember his last name, the current lead design on C#. And it’s like “Well, it’s two different things, and…” I don’t know, you have this and that… What do you do? And then I was like – I don’t even know where I came up with that, but I just thought “Let’s just send a command up there and say hello to C#”, you know… “Let’s just have WSL tell us hello.”

It’s also been too long since we’ve talked to Brett, and I feel like we’ve done ourselves a disservice with Changelog & Friends missing that friend.

Well said. Come back, Brett. Anytime… We will invite you personally soon, unless you email us first, and [unintelligible 00:17:18.21]

Sure.

Come on.

Yeah, let’s do it.

We did some Python coverage this year, but we were talking with other folks, you know… We’re just kind of mixing it up a little bit.

Yeah.

And not that we have to talk to Brett about Python, but – of course, he moved on from the steering committee, but there’s lots to say there. And I haven’t watched John Wick 4, so maybe I’ve been avoiding him, just ashamed of myself for not having done that…

Or Dune. We talked about Dune 2, and John Wick 4…

That’s right.

Those were the things we were supposed to do to get back together.

And I did not watch Dune 2, because I’m still kind of mad at Dune 1.

Dune 2 was so good, man. It was so good. It is so good. It’s a rewatch for me. I have a hard time going and watching Dune 1 again, because it was sort of a slow burn to the storyline…

It was a slow burn. It never ended, too.

But Dune 2 takes all that to the next level… And it’s worth it. I mean, it’s good. It’s good.

Now, I know I told you this, but I’m not sure if I said this on the show. When I went and saw Dune 1, they didn’t call it Dune 1.

No, they didn’t.

And I didn’t do trailers or anything, because I’m like “It’s Dune. I want to watch it.”

That’s right.

And I don’t get out to movies very often… And so I got out to a movie, and I went to Dune 1, and I was enjoying the heck out of it, even though it was a slow burn… I’m patient. I like slow movies. And then I realized it’s only half of a movie. And I just got very angry, because they didn’t say Dune 1. At least then I would have known what I was getting myself into.

Yeah.

But I remember being like two hours in, thinking “How are they going to get through all this? There’s so much more that happens.” And then I’m like “Oh, they aren’t.” And then it was - what, three years later for Dune 2? I was just too mad. I’m like “I’m not going to see it. I’m just over it.”

Yeah. Well…

Now, it’s been long enough that maybe I can just change that attitude, my bad attitude… But that was my stance prior. And that’s why I haven’t seen Dune 2 yet, even though I hear it’s pretty good.

It’s pretty good. Yeah, I would recommend it.

Speaking of pretty good, do you want to hear this BMC remix of Brett Cannon?

I cannot wait.

Oh, there’s power – if you think there’s power in the button, just wait for this one.

[00:19:18.05]

Hello, Adam and Jerod. It’s Brett Cannon calling, for that annual tradition to tell you about my favorite episodes. So I’m going to start off with the Power of the Button, talking about the physicality of the button, and just how that kind of ties into technology. The next episode I liked a lot was the 1,000 butt infections… I just thought that was a really cool chat to show that sometimes - you know what? You don’t have to take the journal solution. Sometimes it’s okay to actually scratch your butt if it really gets you what you’re after… So I’m safe.

And then finally, the kind of fun cat butt episode… Just a lot of good cat butt advice that I think a lot of us can stand to listen to consistently… Andrea did not love any of these episodes, but you know what? It’s okay… She still is an awesome person.

[laughs]

I hope you like that, Brett…

Oh, man…

That’s edgy. That’s edgy. Do we have to bleep that one at all? Are there any bleeps there?

I just think – I think ‘butt’ is pretty pedestrian at this point.

It was good. That was good. Oh my gosh, the cat… Oh, gosh. The cat…

[00:20:19.17] I’m still 12 years old at heart… You know, a good butt joke just still hits me.

Yeah. I’m just past a chest cold, and that made me want to cough some stuff up, let’s just say…

Brought it out of you…?

Yeah, it’s kind of like… It’s percolating. It’s percolating.

Alright. Next up, another long-time listener and first-time guest this year… It’s Don McKinnon.

[00:20:46.27]

Greetings, friends. My favorite episode of 2025 was an early one… Terso is Rewriting SQLite in Rust. One reason is I’m a sucker for people building in Rust - big surprise - but more importantly, I enjoyed it because I got to learn about the concept of deterministic simulation testing, which I found to be pretty fascinating. I always love the episodes where I get to learn about a concept that I haven’t run up against before.

Anywho, thank you guys for the podcast, and looking forward to what you have lined up in 2026.

Pretty cool stuff… Of course, we did talk about that as well on the TigerBeetle episode… But Glauber Costa from Turso certainly introduced it to both of us, and apparently a lot of other people, on that episode. So yeah, that’s part of what we do here, is just kind of uncover techniques that other people are doing, that you may not have heard of, and maybe they’ll help you on your path… Maybe they won’t, but just being more well-rounded, while not having to work too hard. You know, just listen to a couple of doofs ask silly questions, and you learn a thing or two.

That’s a good way to summarize it. I like that. Doofs.

A couple of doofs… I don’t know, I’ve never done any deterministic simulation testing. Have you?

No, that was actually really, really revealing, because I had never heard of that concept, and it seemed to be… I’m trying to recall exactly how they were leveraging it. It was like being able to have confidence in the future because it tested it, and it went kind of like an AI might even do to figure things out that you wouldn’t normally figure out, like non-written tests that get tested. It’s kind of the unknown unknowns kind of thing.

Yeah, it’s like a fuzzer, to a certain extent. It’s like a fuzzer for tests, but it was deterministic, and so it could be completely reproducible… Whereas fuzzers generally will produce pseudo-random stuff. It’s reproducible, and therefore you get regression type of assurances as well. Obviously, I don’t know exactly how it works. That’s why we invite the experts on and tell us.

You know, I should look into this more now that this is brought up, because as you may know, I’m working on this thing called DNS Hole. And one thing I actually introduced was this thing called DNS Chaos. DNS Hole Chaos. And it was essentially throwing chaos at this DNS server to attack it, and make it push its boundaries. And so pushing different RFCs, different things around it that it is supposed to support, and should support. And it’s kind of like deterministic testing, or this DST… It’s like, how can you push a system in a certain way and test its boundaries? That’s kind of wild stuff. I should look more into DSTs.

You should. DNS Hole - do we have to bleep that? I don’t know.

Oof… I don’t think so.

Alright, here’s Don McKinnon’s remix.

[00:23:40.28]

Greetings, friends. I always love the episodes where I get to learn about a concept that I haven’t run up against before. My favorite episode - I enjoyed it because I got to learn I’m in a simulation… Which I found to be pretty fascinating. And my friends and the people have always been in this simulation. Big surprise, but… Anyhow, thank you guys for the podcast.

Into the Matrix. I love that.

Great Matrix sound at the end there.

Yeah.

And then the – it’s still going, yes…

A little trail-off…

Trail-off in the crowd noise there.

I was thinking, was that crowd noise crowdsourced from the meetup in Denver?

Oh, wow.

Because that’s where BMC was with us, and I wonder if he maybe pulled out his phone and captured some sound, and reused it later on for us.

We should go ask. That would be a deep cut if that was the case.

That would be a deep cut. Like a well-planned deep cut, like “I’m going to need this one day.”

“Someday I’m going to mix this into something they asked me for.”

Yeah.

That would be really cool. And it turned out to be Don McKinnon’s simulation crowd. Alright… Next up we have Fernando - and his last name is tough, because he’s from Brazil. Bevilacqua? Bevilacqua… I don’t know.

He’ll say it, so… He’ll get it right. Here we go.

[00:25:11.08]

Hey, Adam and Jerod. This is Fernando Bevilacqua, speaking all the way from Brazil. I’ve been a longtime listener of the pod, since 2015. My favorite episodes of this year were Flowing with Agents, episode #658, and Reaching Industrial Economies of Scale, episode #632, both with Beyang Liu. They were very insightful, about the usage of agents in everyday activities we have with software development… And I think they give us a glimpse into the future of how software development and how technology in the field will evolve.

Last but not least, episode Solving the AI Energy Crisis, #652, with Greg Osuri. That was a very interesting talk about politics, about infrastructure, about how to grow AI in a more practical way; not about just technology, but how to build the real world, the physical things we need to sustain this kind of advancement. And I just want to say that it took me 10 years, but 2026 will not only be the year of the Linux desktop, but it will be the year that I will become a Changelog++ subscriber. Hard-earned money will be shared with you guys. I’ve been following you and really admire your work, and I want to support the creators… Especially in this sea of AI slop, I really want to see people with critical thinking, and making the good questions, and intriguing thoughts, and making us reflect on the path we have to follow.

That’s it, guys… Keep on rocking, and thanks for all the pods.

I don’t know about you, Jerod, but that’s why we do it, man… Right there.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, who could have said it better? In an age of AI slop, we are the critical thinkers…? Maybe not me and you necessarily, but by proxy, of course…

Right. We talk to the critical thinkers.

That’s right. That’s cool, man… All the way from Brazil, too. I mean, that just shows you how big the world is, and how big the reach is for an mp3 on the internet, dude. That’s…

Yeah.

That’s wild.

Yeah… Super, super-cool. Thank you, Fernando, for writing it in. Digging the Beyang Liu episodes, of course. There’s one of your critical thinkers there… Always worth talking to Beyang about what he thinks where the world is going, and some of where he’s making the world go by the efforts they’re doing there at Sourcegraph and Amp.

And of course, Solving the AI Energy Crisis - that was, I think, one of our more controversial episodes of the year. It probably created one of the longest threads in our Zulip channel, because people began to debate and discuss the merits of AI and energy, and politics… And it gets a little bit drawn down some political lines, because of people’s approaches to these things, but… I liked the Greg Osuri episode because he cracked me up a couple times… Like when he put on the glasses - that was funny. He’s doing some really cool, weird stuff with his house he’s building… Just a very interesting human, with interesting takes…

[00:28:20.11] And these centralized AI training and inference - I don’t know. Now they’re trying to talk about space-based stuff, too. Not they [meaning] Greg, but they [meaning] the AI hyperscalers are both Google and xAI. And I believe Bezos has to be talking about it, because he’s in the space as well.

Yeah.

We’re talking about training models in space… And I don’t know, that’s beyond my pay grade. To me it doesn’t seem like a very smart idea, but they seem to think it’s going to be better… Maybe you’re closer to the sun, so you get better solar power or something… But anyways, we can talk about that some other time, but…

I’ve got some ideas there.

Do you want to talk about them?

Just briefly… I mean, it would make total sense. One, it’s cold…

Well, it’s a vacuum. You don’t have any air movement.

That’s true…

So getting the heat away from the source would be difficult, I would think.

I guess you have some sort of out into space… I don’t know that part, but definitely, unfettered access to the number one energy source nearest to us…

Yeah, closer to the sun makes sense, but you have to move the data up and down as well.

Well, that’s true. Well, maybe you can –

And maintenance seems tough. Like, you get a bad GPU and it’s like “Dang, we’ve got to send another rocket up.” Anyways…

Robots, I bet. Robots and automated hard drive delivery, or data delivery from up and down… There’s no pipe, I bet. That’s going to be like taking the data literally from something, and down to the Earth. Or just chucking it out. Right? It’ll make it… Right…?

[laughs] “It’ll make it…”

It’s going to make it…

There’s your DNS request there, right? UDP. It’ll make it. If not, who cares? Somebody else will catch it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don’t know… Smarter people than me say it’s smart, but… I’m a bit skeptical, because it seems like a whole lot of work to get the stuff up there, and doing stuff, and then a whole lot of work to get it back down. And then you have latency… I guess you could do training, but maybe not inference, because – I mean…

Yeah, that’s true?

…what’s the latency even from Starlink? It’s not great. It’s better than anything else there’s been, but… Anyways. Maybe a topic we can dig into in 2026.

It’s a caching problem, Jerod. Varnish.

It is.

Varnish will solve this, too.

That’s right. Varnish in space. Now we’re talking. Alright, Fernando remixed.

[00:30:46.16]

Hey, Adam and Jerod. This is Fernando Bevilacqua speaking. It took me years, but 2026 will be the year that I will become a secret agent in the field. I really want to see the world, and I really admire Batman… I want to see everyday criminals in politics face justice, and solve real crises in a world of intrigue. That’s it, guys… Keep on rocking, and thanks for all the plots.

That’s a proper remix right there… I thought it was like Darth Vader entering for a bit there, you know…

Batman.

Then he got like heroic, secret agent…

Fernando Batman Bevilacqua.

That’s what I’m talking about, yeah.

“That’s what I’m talking about…” [laughs]

That’s what I’m talking about right there, man… That’s a nickname for you.

The Dark Knight, yes.

Oh, yes… From the South. The deep, deep South.

That’s right. Deeper than the South.

Oh, my gosh… That’s cool. I like that one. That was epic.

That was epic.

Up next we have the – my previous tease was somebody will outnumber Andrew Patton… And that’s Jamie Tanna. Jamie - safe to say Jamie likes the pod. Let’s hear from Jamie.

[00:35:11.01]

Hey, Adam and Jerod. Happy State of the ‘log again. It’s Jamie Tanna. I think this may be one of the most on-time voicemails I’ve sent you all… But yeah, thanks again for another great year. I ran the numbers, and this year I’ve listened to a whopping 74 episodes, which is about five days of listening time… And I’ve managed to whittle down an amazing year to a shortlist of around 15 episodes… But I’ll try and keep it even shorter than that.

With the strife in the open source ecosystem this year there were some really good discussions about some of the drama and the threats… And some of the really good episodes around this were Feross in Changlog & Friends #111, Mike McQuaid and Justin Searls in Changelog & Friends #113, and a related discussion with Andrew Nesbitt and the excellent work he is doing with ecosystems in Interviews #665.

I’ve also really enjoyed what feels like an increase in levity this year, and especially some of the conversations with your friends like Amal in Friends #86, Dan Moore in Friends #78, Mat Ryer in #75 and #90, and a whole lot of other Friends episodes.

As ever, things like #define and Friendly Feud game shows have been really great, and I’ve really enjoyed them, especially even being in my own this year and participating myself was really cool. I also really enjoyed some of the deep dives you’ll have done into things like different folks’ blog posts… So for instance Friends #81 and the interview you had with Sean in Interviews #666.

As a little bit of an AI skeptic, it has been really interesting digging into some of the interesting cases of AI without a lot of the hype you’ll have done… So in particular things like the interview with David Crawshaw in Interviews #629, Nick Nisi in Friends #88, #102 and #120, and Adam Jacob in Interviews #664, and Stevie Yegge in Friends #96. And also Thorsten Ball in Interviews #648.

Finally, I want to again repeat that it’s been really nice just having a few episodes of just the two of you just chat about stuff; not necessarily even about the tech, just about life, and movies, and stuff… It has been really interesting, and - yeah, a really nice balance between different things. So thanks for a great year, and here’s to another. Thanks!

Cheers, Jamie. That was awesome.

Yeah. Thanks, Jamie.

That’s very touching. I mean, just to think about that… He’s not only a listener to that level - five days of listening - but he took the time to go through, to retrospect…

[00:37:59.14] He did.

…what mattered, and made a comprehensive, well-articulated list, and then shared it via voice to us… And then it’s gonna get remixed. I mean, that’s –

That’s spectacular.

That’s spectacular.

Yeah. I mean, honestly, Jamie’s list pretty much could have just been my list… Like, he hit on a lot of the ones that I would have done, and he hit on – we were talking about doing eight to ten… He got – I think he got 15 or 16 in there. But to add a little bit – because he was just going through like Friends #111, Interviews #665… To add a little bit of color to those - so he talked about the ones where we do blog posts. So Interviews #666 - that was “Do Repeat Yourself” with Sean Goedecke. That was recently, in which we had him on. And then there was another one, Friends #81, that he mentioned, called “Change My Mind.” And this is where we used Chris Kiehl’s post about development topics that he’s changed his mind on over the last 10 years, as a bit of a launching pad into a discussion that you and I had.

Yeah.

And about things we have and have not changed our minds on over the years… And so that’s a little bit of what Jamie was talking about. Of course, there’s many other references there, but… What are your thoughts, Adam?

Man, I could probably go on, but… I agree, I think even that show in particular, Change My Mind - I recall coming to that episode thinking “Did I prepare well enough for this?” I felt underprepared, because I was thinking “How much have I changed my mind on?” And I think – did we have something happen before that show, that kind of made it a little uniquely recorded?

I don’t know.

I thought something happened…

Probably a cancellation of a guest, is my guess.

Maybe… Something – I don’t recall exactly in the moment, but that was a fun one to record. I agree. I like some of the pods we get to do… One of the ones on my list - I guess I can just briefly share it (no one’s said it yet) was “Turn Him Into a Walrus.” That’s on my faves list.

That was fun.

But those are the fun episodes, where you just get together and just get in a groove on whatever it is. And I think Change My Mind, that was a really fun pod.

Probably the best pod that we recorded all year was the Dev Null one, that we didn’t get to ship. We were on fire, man. Remember that?

Oh, that was pure gold, honestly…

[laughs] It might have been like the best 45 minutes we’ve ever done together. That’s why we were so mad afterwards, because… I mean, the show that actually went out - I listened back to it and I was like “Oh, you know, it’s fine…”

It was good, yeah.

You know, we covered a lot of topics, and we had fun, and stuff…

Yeah, we did.

But man, that 45 minutes was pure gold.

It was…

At least we get to say that and no one can refute that, ever. [laughs]

No one can challenge the fact, or the opinion [unintelligible 00:40:44.19]

More of a fact than opinion… But okay.

A lot of good episodes here, though. #629 I think was in this list, #666…

David Krashaw… So we had – yes, we had Sean Goedecke, of course, “Agentic Infra Changes Everything”, the most recent Adam Jacob episode, which was really good…

Yeah.

And then, of course, the Steve Yegge episode, I think, probably the most referenced as we go through our list here.

I mean, it’s Steve Yegge…

Adventures in Babysitting Coding Agents - that one was very interesting to a lot of people.

Another stellar title. Like, look at that title.

That was one of my – that’s on my list of best titles, for sure.

Oh, man… That’s a good one.

Anytime you get an ‘80s movie reference into a title… And it’s on point? It’s like, come on.

It couldn’t be a better title. There’s no other way to title that.

It’s like taking candy from a baby, you know?

Yeah.

Which is a really weird figure of speech… Which I would never do. Okay… Jamie Tanna Remix?

Let’s do it.

[00:41:45.22]

Hey, Adam and Jerod. Happy State of the ‘log again. It’s Jamie Tanna. It’s been really nice just having a few episodes of just the two of you just chatting about stuff. Not necessarily even about the tech, just about life. Movies… And friends… And game shows… And hype… And deep dive…

Oh, my gosh… You give Breakmaster a reason to go – just to lose his mind a little. Oh, gosh… That’s a throwback. I love that. That’s cool.

Up next, another longtime listener and community member - it’s Jarvis Yang.

[00:42:44.18]

Hello, Changelog & Friends. This is Jarvis, checking in once more. Great to see the Changelog.news website has finally landed in the right hands. 2025 has been quite the year, and I was happy to help keep an eye on that vanity domain, and inform Jerod of its availability. And I really appreciate you, Jerod, keeping me updated on all the major news.

Things get hectic, but I always make sure to carve out time for a listen and a look through the newsletter.

My final shout-out is for Minnebar 20. That’s the 20th unconference for the Minnestar organization here in Minnesota. For those who don’t know, Minnebar is the nation’s largest and longest-running technology unconference, first held in 2006. It’s a user-generated, participant-led event, meaning there are no keynotes, and all the sessions are run by the local tech and business communities. Best of all, it’s free. Mark your calendars, Minnebar 20 is on Saturday, May 2nd, 2026.

Also, a very happy early birthday to Jerod’s daughter, whose birthday conveniently aligns with the event weekend. See you all next year.

Hm…

Conveniently aligns… Do you hear a little bit of a troll in there? We were invited to Minnebar. He thought it’d be a good place for our next live show, and I told him that we have a conflict that week, and so that’s what he’s referring to. [laughs]

Okay.

But for those who don’t know Jarvis, he calls in every year and he gives us shout outs, and then he always gives something else a shout out, most of the time some Minnesota-based organization… Such as Minibar, which looks like a really cool event, actually. 20 years to throw an unconference. That’s pretty impressive.

Is it called MinuteBar?

Minnebar. M-I-N-N-E bar. Like Minnesota, I think…

Oh, yeah. That makes sense.

Yeah.

Okay, Minnesota bar, Minnebar.

Yeah, exactly. Minnebar. May 2nd.

Bar camps are still a thing? Is this really –

They must be, at least in Minnesota. I know that in Nebraska, the Omaha bar camp I think has gone by the wayside. I think someone tried to bring it back… We had it going for five, six, seven years, maybe 10 years, and then eventually it stopped, and then someone tried to bring it back, and I’m not sure if it’s still going… But I don’t hear much about bar camps anymore.

I miss that idea, you know?

Mm-hm. Yeah, it’s cool.

I wonder what makes them – I guess just getting people together is hard, you know? It really is.

It’s just a lot of work.

Expensive, hard… Yeah, it is a lot of work. It takes some dedication.

There’s risk involved, that is oftentimes undue, you know? You’re like “Why am I risking this in my personal life, to put on an event?” Usually with regards to insurance etc. Or fronting a bunch of money to rent a space out that maybe no one’s going to show up to, and eventually you’re like “Why am I doing this?”

You almost need like a non-profit established for it, which is a whole other problem, right?

Yeah, now you’re like basically taking on a second job.

Yeah… Pain in a butt that, though.

Not easy… Not easy. So thank an organizer out there, y’all, when you go to your events…

Yeah, for sure.

[00:45:56.03] Definitely thank an organizer… Because no one’s getting rich off these things, so they’re doing it for the love, lots of times. They have ulterior motives, but they’re usually straightforward… And it’s still worth thanking them, as long as they’re doing it on the up and up.

Just as maybe a slight mention to that - I was in the GopherCon channel in the Gopher Slack… And I guess there was some concern around timing, you know? Because people wanted a certain time of year, and it’s kind of hard to do that…

Yeah, I know it’s moved… It’s like August now, or…? It used to be in the winter?

Right. They’ve had to move it to different locations, and move it to different timing… And I just saw - just a drive-by look - Heather Sullivan, who runs that conference, along with, I believe, Brian and Erik… I don’t know what the exact structure is anymore, but she was saying it loses money. It lost 200 grand last year. So even a conference that’s well-established like that, if that – I don’t doubt it’s not a true statement, but like how true is the detail of that, that I’m not aware of… Like, what’s left under the covers I haven’t mentioned here… But I saw her mention in there, in GopherCon’s Slack, in the channel there in the Gopher Slack, that it lost money. So even if you run a well-done conference like that, with great organization, every year great production…

Yeah, I mean, that’s like 12 years running maybe? Like, a long time.

Yeah… Yeah. So you’re not immune to the risk, even if you’ve been in a groove for years.

Well, even when the – who runs Strange Loop? I can’t remember his name now. But at the last Strange Loop, one of the last talks was the organizer, whose name I’m forgetting - forgive me - who put it on thanklessly, except for the small group of people that thanked him… For years. Six, seven years. And he shared all the financials for Strange Loop, which was a very successful conference; small, regional, not huge like a KubeCon, but certainly well-respected and well-run. And the financials just didn’t make any sense. You could just tell by the end of it he was only doing it because he loved doing it. There was no reason why anybody in their right mind would do it otherwise… And that’s for like a well-regarded, successful conference. So…

I mean, that’s why unconferences do make some sense, because there’s less to do. Your job is to get people to show up, and hopefully there’s some catering, or whatever… But it’s just less, and then you’re also less guaranteed that you’re going to have quality talks, etc.

I’m feverishly trying to get the name of our dear friend, who I’m sad I’ve forgotten the name as well…

Same.

Alex. Alex Miller.

There you go.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean – and we were there, thankfully… It was their first and last. It was the last Strange Loop, it was our first…

2023 in St. Louis.

And [unintelligible 00:48:44.25] that call in there. That was kind of cool… Long-time listener, Slack and Zulu participant, and then met in the flesh, fellow Pennsylvanian… That’s where I’m originally from, is Pittsburgh area. But man, that’s a great conference. And then Alan – or sorry, Alex, obviously was emotional delivering his final rollout finale of the conference.

Sure.

And if you listen to the episode we delivered from there, I was smart enough to not only be there in the moment, but also capture a voice memo, and put that on the pod. So at the tail end, the closer of that episode includes some of those final moments from that conference. So if you didn’t make it, or you did make it, and you want to kind of go back with some nostalgia, we tried to capture some of that for you. It was a good conference.

And if you’re wondering about that episode, it’s called “Vibes from Strange Loop”, and it also featured the moment we met Taylor Troesh, who we haven’t forgotten ever since.

“Take my small hand…”

[laughs] That’s episode 559. So Changelog.fm/559, if you want to go back and hear what Adam is talking about.

Lots of – that was a grab bag, an anthology of conversations.

[00:50:03.03] Ah… One of the best.

Yeah, man. That was awesome.

One of the best. Remix it.

Let’s remix it.

[00:50:09.22]

Hello, friends. Jarvis has finally landed. Check, check, checking in once more… Friends, things get hectic. Always make sure to carve out time for Minnebar 20, the nation’s largest technology conference. It’s free. Best of all, there is a minibar. And I really appreciate you, Jerod, informing me of the minibar’s availability. I’m happy to help keep an eye on it. See you all next year. Jarvis out.

Jarvis out… Yeah, that’s good stuff.

Celebrate the minibar…

Yeah, that’s a solid remix, Breakmaster Cylinder.

Yeah. So far, so good on these remixes. I don’t think there’s been a miss yet.

No.

Alright. Now, speaking of longtime friends, here’s our very old friend, from way back, probably at the beginning of the show - Justin Dorfman. How long have we known Justin, Adam?

Oh, my gosh…

Forever.

Over a decade.

[00:51:18.10]

Hey, Jerod, Adam. Justin Dorfman here. A longtime listener, 10+ years, and I’m really looking forward to 2026, and the guests that you will be having on, and maybe even see you in North Carolina. Maybe. Anyway, have a great one, and thanks for always entertaining, at least me. Yeah, take care.

Yeah, I’m a big fan of Justin. MaxCDN days…

Oh, yeah.

Really involved in the community. Always trying to love on people. That’s what I love about Justin. And I’m loving the work he’s doing for Sourcegraph, and I think by proxy maybe AMP, too. I’m not sure, because of the divide now. But I’m loving his role, and what he’s doing for them, and just kind of keeping people informed with what Sourcegraph is doing, what Amp is doing… Yeah, super-awesome, dude.

Mm-hm. Always love to hear from you, Justin… Don’t be a stranger. Hopefully, we’ll see you in North Carolina. Here’s your remix…

[00:52:19.24]

Hey, Jerod, Adam. Justin Dorfman here. Long time listener, 10+ years, and I’m really looking forward to 2026 and the guests that you will be having on, and maybe even see you in North Carolina. Maybe? Anyway, have a great one, and thanks for always entertaining me. Yeah.

Alright…

Wow.

Very musical. Rhythmic, even.

Very rappy. It was like a little rap.

Yes. “Justin-Dorfman-here…” Yup.

Yeah, very rap-like. Took you back to the ‘80s, man; that’s like a late ’80s, early ’90s rap.

That was. That was very much like Funkmaster Flex, and stuff like that. Alright. Our final caller - Nabil Suleiman.

[00:53:12.06]

Hello, Adam and Jerod. What a year it’s been… This has definitely been the year of AI, and I do appreciate and count on your content to keep up to date with all of that. However, my favorite episodes personally are the ones around home lab, Kaizen, and Oxide. Those have all been great. But definitely, without a doubt, peak Changelog for me was the meetup in Denver. It was great meeting you all and making several new friends along the way… And - I mean, who would have imagined that we’d all go adventuring in the wilderness together with the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder and battle a whole bunch of rattlesnakes? It was definitely a trip to remember.

Anyways, kudos to you all for another great year of great content. Take care. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year’s, cheers… And I’ll see you on the other side of the year.

Cheers to you, Nabil. That was awesome.

Yeah. Cheers, man. Battling the rattlesnakes…

Not to – it’s one rattlesnake.

Well, he floralized it, so…

I like that.

That’s how stories go. They get better and better.

You’ve gotta embellish a little bit.

Yeah. They get better as you get further away.

[unintelligible 00:54:12.05] that story a little bit, you know? A little seasoning won’t hurt anybody.

[00:54:16.01] Remember that den of rattlesnakes we had stumbled upon…?

Gosh, so many.

[laughs]

Just – one almost got us.

Why’d it have to be snakes?

Yeah. Man, home lab for sure. You know homelab’s near and dear to my heart. Proxmox for life, Zfs for life, and…

Windows for life? Oh, wait…

Well…

Windows for a minute…

Well, not quite. But I did get support on getting my Windows license from Nabil, so that was very kind of him.

Oh, nice. Thanks, Nabil.

He lent me his support to get it for slightly less, which is very, very kind. Very kind.

Well, I do want to mention Nabil’s mention of our AI coverage… And I think it was Andrew as well, or somebody else earlier on. Maybe it was Jamie, who said he’s kind of a skeptic, but he appreciates our AI coverage because it’s not completely saturated in the hype that you can get out there… Because we’ve also been accused of that. Especially, yeah, it seems like people on Spotify in particular comment on our shows, and they’re very upset that we’re talking about AI… One guy says it’s all we talk about now, and blah, blah, blah.

Huh.

And you can’t keep everybody happy. But I want to bring it up, because it is something that we think about, and something that we want to both talk about, and recognize, and use, and ponder… But we also understand that it is oversold, and that it is over-discussed, and that we tend to lean into it at times when we have less interesting things on the docket… We’re like “Well, it’s always fodder for an interesting conversation”, because of all the questions, because we don’t have the answers. And so we’re doing our best to both talk about it, but not gush too much… But then when we’re excited, just go ahead and be excited. And I think you probably – as you guys have been listening over the years, you have gotten a taste of both our excitement, and then our skepticism, and then our disappointments, and then our realizations of what it can do, and how exciting that is, and what it can’t do, and how frustrating that is…

And so - yeah, we’re trying, and it’s not easy, because if we wanted to just chase audience, we would just lean hard into it, like so many people have. And I’ve never wanted the Changelog to become like yet another AI show. So I appreciate that you all appreciate the non-AI topics…

And when we hear the criticism, we take it very seriously. And then I look back at our most recent episodes, I go through our playlist and I’m like “Maybe we are just doing too much of this.” And I look at it, and I’m like “You know what? Nope. There’s plenty of stuff in there that’s not.” It’s just like confirmation bias, I guess, when people say it’s all we talk about.

I think it definitely is a recurring topic.

Oh, yeah.

But it’s not the isolated primary topic, obviously.

Of the show. Yeah. I mean, in some episodes it is.

Yeah, I think even the show I did recently with Alex Kretzschmar was that – we were talking about the Linux rabbit hole, essentially. Because I didn’t even plan that, really. We just started talking about the fun stuff, and that was kind of fun. And I think we were about 50 minutes in, and he mentioned something that he had done vibe coding, and we talked about it on the podcast as well. And I didn’t even plan to mention it, really… So it wasn’t like a topic on my mind, but obviously, he laid down the spades, and so we played spades.

[00:58:06.17] Well, I just wanted to mention that we do think about it, and we hope to bring somewhat level-headed, and yet also keeping to the edge of what things are going on, and not ignoring it just because it’s AI, because I feel like that’s also foolhardy. And of course, News talks about it all the time because it’s so much in the news… So if you want to keep up with it without having to actually follow the news yourself, of course; I feel like we’ve tried to be a good resource for that… But opinions vary, and mileage varies as well. Even my own mileage, with the same tool I was using yesterday varies today. It’s like “Oh, I was so excited yesterday, and then I hit a road block today and now I’m mad again.” It’s like doing two all over again. Because we’re emotional beings.

Well, let’s get to Nabil’s and our final Breakmaster Cylinder remix.

[00:59:01.21]

Peak Changelog for me was venturing in the wilderness, together with the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder, and battling a whole bunch of rattlesnakes.

There’s a little trail off there… I loved the footsteps.

Yeah, I hope that ending means that we survived, after whatever happened there happened. The climactic – there was lasers… A lot was going on there.

Yeah, somebody got carried away.

Yeah.

Like, carried away with their talent, and then carried away with their unfortunate event, maybe. There was no speaking at the end of the walkway, so we don’t know for sure. Could have been a park ranger getting us out of there.

It could have been.

We were down and out.

Alright. We’re done with BMC now… Thank you, BMC. Not forever, but just for this particular State of the ‘log. And thank you to everybody who took the time out of your day. I know y’all are busy… I know it’s asking a lot to record a voicemail and upload it through a form… None of that’s easy. If we were SaaS entrepreneurs, we’d be failing. There’s too much friction. Our conversion rates would be low.

Yeah. [unintelligible 01:00:47.09]

All that to say, we thank you for going through that for us, because it makes us feel good, and hopefully it makes you all feel good, too. Should we talk about our own faves now? Let’s get to our faves. I mean, come on, enough with these people’s faves… They don’t know the real faves…

The final chapter, the final segment. It’s like if it was a story arc, this is the final act of the pod, you know?

That’s right. How do you want to do it? Do you want to go first? Do you want me to go first? Do you want to go tit for tat?

Let’s go at the exact same time and talk over each other.

[laughs] We’ve been known to do that. I mean, Jason will tell you…

Yeah. You know, I don’t know. I don’t have a prescription. I’ll take your lead.

Alright. Well, I have a list that was longer than I was expecting… Ten. My list is ten-deep, and these are all 10 that have not been mentioned at all yet, which means I had a bunch of other ones that other people mentioned… And I’m just going to ten that were not mentioned. And I’ll start with the oldest… And that would be Interview #625, From Open Source to Acquired with Ashley Jeffs. This was back in January, in which Ash told us all about Benthos and his journey to finding an acquirer for Benthos in Red Panda… And an open source success story in many ways, and also just a guy who cracked me up with the way he was. I mean, his mannerisms, the way he talks, his random contradictions of himself… Like, he would say left, and then right, and he would stare at you. He’s just a funny person. I really enjoyed him. I tried to get him back onto a #define, because I’m like “You’re just funny, and fun to be around. Please come play games with us.” And he respectfully declined, to my chagrin… But I really just enjoyed that guy. And so that is my first fave, is “From Open Source to Acquired”, with Ashley Jeffs.

That was a fun episode. “Daddy pig.”

Yes… [laughs]

That was a good one. That was good. Should I go now?

Yeah, go ahead.

Should I comment a little bit? I liked that one a lot. That was a good story, too. That was a fun story “From Acquired to –” And he’s having fun doing what he’s doing, too. He’s taking care of his family, enjoying what he’s doing… He’s clearly pretty happy… Balanced, it seems…

Remember how he sat on that chair? He had that chair set up and he’s like “This makes me more powerful than you guys.” And I was like “It’s totally working.”

It is working.

He’s just a funny guy.

Okay. Well, I mentioned one during the pod, so I kind of went first, technically…

Right. Which was which one?

“Turn him into a walrus”, Friends #87.

Oh, yes. This is when ChatGPT just got good at – like, Dolly 2 or something happened…

Yes. Studio Ghibli was that…

Right.

And then it’s actually – I loved the short, or the clip, I’m not sure which one it was, out there on the socials… I had to share that with my brother. I was like “This is cool stuff.” And then… Because wasn’t it – it turned me and him into a walrus, right? We went golfing…

It was just you. You were exiting a golf –

It was just me, yeah.

You had golfed with your brother, but he wasn’t in the shot.

[01:05:50.25] Exactly. So in my mind, behind the scenes, I’ve got two pictures. One that’s a selfie of me and my brother, and then one that was just me. And that one that was just me I shared with you on the pod, and then you turned me into a walrus.

Right.

And then I shared that with him because he was there, and he would have thought it was really cool. And he’s not in tech, at all. And then so then he came back a few months later, we golfed again, same place… Took the same selfie… But this time it was me, him and my son. And so behind the scenes in our household, I had to make me a walrus again, or us a walrus.

All three of you.

And it was just – it’s cool. Yeah. So that one’s like a heartstring for me, not just a good show and a good title, but… It was a really good show, too. I thought that was one of those ones where it’s like – I think I said on there, “This is what the Internet was made for.” That’s the sauce, man. That’s the sauce.

Yes. And this was around the time that I began saying - and to this day I think - we should continue to use software to make things that bring joy to people.

Yeah.

And that’s the good stuff. Now, we can talk about all the downsides of AI generated images, and I’m aware of all these things, and I have all the feelings everybody else does… But that’s the joy of software, is “Take this person and turn them into a walrus.” It’s just fun, it’s funny – everybody wants to see what themselves look like. “Oh, that looks like me.

Oh, it doesn’t look like me.” Yeah, it gets old eventually, and there’s creepy things you can do etc, but let’s use it to have fun. And we did that on an episode, and I agree, that was a great one.

Yeah. Yeah, I was just going to mention it and then move on, but we dug in deep, so I just… I rolled with it. But the one I wanted to mention first - and it’s because I haven’t talked to him in so long, and I couldn’t believe how long it was that I talked to him… Drew Wilson. So we had Drew Wilson on the pod, episode 639 of the Interviews show, “Chasing that next BIG thing”, with Drew Wilson. And I’m not a big fan of the “with” titled shows, but that’s what that was… Because Drew is always chasing something. He launched Plasso, I believe, which was a banking platform, sold it to GoDaddy, or I don’t know what he’s – he’s done some crazy stuff. The guy is always – he’s always on the fringe, on where it should be. Wherever the puck is going, he’s kind of already there, and he’s kind of examined it already, and you’re kind of coming to the puck, and he’s already been there. And that’s Drew. So I really appreciated getting back on the pod with him. And we produced a podcast together a long time ago… And so it was just wild getting to hang with him again, and talk about what he’s up to, and just… It was cool. It was like a reunion.

It was a reunion, after many years. Next up for me would be “Discovery Coding” with Jimmy Miller, episode #80 of Friends. And this is Jimmy Miller’s return to the show after an excellent episode last year; I think it was in both of our lists, was “The best/worst codebase.” We had him back on this year, talking about his new blog post about discovery coding… And I just love even this summary here: “Fire up a REPL, grab your favorite Stephen King novel, and hold on to the seat of your pants. Jimmy Miller returns to reveal why, at least for some of us, discovery coding is where it’s at.” And I’m just like “You know what? I hear that description and I’m like “I want to go to there. I want to listen to that.”

And that was a fun conversation, about his process of discovery coding, which I think honestly was probably different than both what you and I were thinking about and talking about, and relating to… Because his was kind of very specific. But fascinating, that guy, and the way he writes about what he does.

I wonder if there’s a mirror of that happening in the vibe code world; like if it’s a version of that, but not really.

Like we’re all doing discovery coding all the time?

[01:09:40.07] Well, I think that – yeah, because there’s… Like, when I putter – I call it puttering. I don’t have a target… I guess it is discovery coding. I don’t even know what I’m going to pick up, I’m just going to play with something. Like today, for example, at the end of our meeting, I’m like “I wonder if Safari has an API where you can easily pull back all the tabs, the URLs and [unintelligible 01:10:02.10] page titles and turn that into a markdown list.” And moments later, we had that script written. And that was a version of like almost discovery coding, where it’s like “I wonder what… I have no purpose here to write code.” Obviously, I didn’t write the code either. But the idea was like “Can I automate what would be a 10-minute task to take all the tabs that I have opened up–” But it was like 50 tabs of these shows, and probably about 30… And make a list. Why would I do that? Can’t I just query the Safari API and get that list?

Yeah.

I don’t know, it’s like discovery coding, in a way.

Yeah, to a certain extent.

Yeah.

I’m certainly doing way more of that than I ever have… Because I don’t have to go through the toil of finding the answer. I can go do the emails or whatever I’m up to, and let the computer do the toiling as I do the discovering. And I think that’s really fun, and probably a lot of what both of us are doing with these things.

Yeah…

Alright, what’s next on your list?

Let’s see here… I have a long list. Let me see… One, two, three, four, five, six… Seven, in my faves. And one, two, three, four, five, six in my must listen list. Two distinct lists…

Those are the same thing –

Kind of all favorites, but you know… I’m just cheating here, because I want to. You know, honestly, I want to say – I won’t say them all. I’ll spare everybody my verbosity… But I would say line number 14 here in this markdown file is “Inside Oxide”, with Bryan Cantrill and Steve Tuck. Very special moment to be on stage with them, recording in the IRL, as part of Oxcon 2025, which is their internal conference… It’s not really promoted or published much. If you are in the know with Oxide and what they’re doing, then you probably know about Oxcon. It’s their once per year annual internal conference. And this year they had some big news to share internally… We can’t share that news, because we’re under NDA… But if you were there, wow. I mean, there’s some cool stuff happening there. And we’ve said “Crossing the chasm…” Yeah, I’d say it’s probably safe to say they’ve crossed the chasm, honestly. They’re not crossing, they’ve crossed it.

And just to be there with, I would say internet legends… Like, wow, dude. I mean, such a fan of Bryan and Steve. But then also to be in their headquarters office, on their stage, podcasting about how they do materials, which is a crucial – like, it is the beginning of the DNA of their DNA for Oxide. It’s how they hire. It’s how they choose who to let in. And this process is so critical to their culture. And we got to just jam with them on their stage, and that was dope. It’s about as dope as you can get, man.

Yeah. That one’s on my list as well, so we teamed up on that one. And I agree with you, that was awesome. I thought it turned out really well… And it was quite an honor, you know? It’s like, we were their special guests… And it’s like “Why?” I’m not sure why, but here we are anyways, so let’s act like we belong here. You know, imposter syndrome… Go, go, go. And it was lots of fun.

Speaking of live on stage, let me bring up the other live show that we did. Now, we did have Nabil mentioning Kaizen/Pipely is live. That was Friends #105, and of course, we did that one live, on stage. We also had Andrew mentioning that as well… The one that wasn’t mentioned was the interview show that we did.

[01:13:56.22] So I wanted to give a shout out to that one, “Live from Denver” with Norah Jones. Interviews #653, you and I, Norah Jones on stage… Is it the best interview we’ve ever done in our lives? Probably not. Could it have gone better? Yeah, sure. Of course, it could have. Was it still a cool thing that I’m glad happened? …and that all in all turned out pretty well, and I’m super-thankful that Norah showed up for us in big ways? Yes. And so definitely a highlight for me was that particular episode, which is the other half of the show, which has already been previously mentioned as people’s favorites.

Yeah. Well, that’s on my list too, man, the Norah Jones episode.

Nice.

I mean it’s – yeah, I mean… The IRL stuff is fun, obviously. I mean, I love humans, and I’m a non-transactional person. If you know me in the reals, which I think you kind of proverbially, you all listening, know me through the airwaves, and the video waves to some degree… You get a pretty good snapshot of who I am. And who I am here is who I am in person. I’m not a different person, this isn’t an act. I can’t act that good, it’s just who I am. I’m a lover, not a fighter… I’ll walk away from a fight before I stand there and fight around… And I just love to go deep with people, and I love to serve people, and I love just to really relate, and have relationship, not transaction and “Bye, see ya.”

So being able to be there with Norah, and she accepted, and she was from Denver, and could easily do it… It was just like “Yeah. That was cool.” And to do it on stage, in front of a listening audience was cool… We got the stage lighting set really well… Some orange and teal, I think it was… It all worked out well. And that was a – I agree with you, it wasn’t our best interview… What could have made it better though? I think what could have made it better was just like better monitoring. For me, it was technical –

If she would hear us better… Yeah.

Yeah. It wasn’t the actual content. It was the execution of the process.

Right… And a lot of my little jabs that I do throughout the interviews, just like random one-off comments that are there to have a moment of levity and whatever… She just couldn’t hear them. And so the crowd even kind of laughed a little bit, you and I chuckled, and then she’s like “What?” And I’m like “Uh, it doesn’t even – it’s not worth even saying it again. I’m going to feel like an idiot having to say this back. I shouldn’t have said it the first time”, you know?

Right.

So those little things could have been better, but whatever, whatever.

Yeah. A lot of good stuff there, man… Is it me again?

Yes, it is.

Okay… Let me look at my list here and see which ones of the ones I’ve selected that I will share. I’m going to say two more, and I’m going to save the best for last, I think. And I’d say Charlie Marsh, Astral, Uv, what they’re doing for Python with Rust is super, super-cool. I’ve been looking at the design even of the Uv library, in terms of like the organization of all the workspaces inside of the way that Rust composes itself in a directory structure… So cool. I mean, just really – I mean, they have different teams doing different crates, and just like the autonom in each one of them… Just such a really – very verbose design. I think I even commented on that… But what they’ve done for Python on the speed front – I’m a Uv user, so whenever I install or mess with Python (which isn’t too frequently) I’m reaching for Uv over Pip, for those reasons. It’s just fast. A lot of things to learn… And they’re actually making a business around it. Like, it’s not just dev tooling for dev tooling’s sake. They’ve built a business around it, they’ve got a registry… They’re doing even more stuff. It’s really cool. It’s admirable.

[01:17:53.22] Heck yeah, man… I’m a fan as well, and I do think that was a good one. I want to give a specific shout-out to a specific #define game. Now, we play a lot of these games, and we’ve had our listeners mention them as a group… But if we were just to name one from this year – there’s been three #defines this year; one back in May, and then July, and then most recently, of course, we had our tournament of champions in November… But if I had to pick one that just cracked me up and I had a blast, I would say it was the one back in May, #define “I’m going pants”, with Angelica Hill, Matthew Sanabria, John Henry Muller, you and I, of course, and the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder himself, for a hilarious and crazy game of #define, that had me laughing out loud as I listened back later… And so if you haven’t listened to our game shows, and you’re wondering “How do I dip my toe in those waters?”, I would suggest Changelog & Friends #93, #define “I’m going pants”, because that is a good one.

What would that come from? What did the pants reference come from? Remind me.

It was – I think it was either BMC or John who would select pants as the – it was the autocomplete… I don’t know, it was an answer to a question… And I was like trying to get them to lock in, and they’re like “Pants.” I think it was BMC, because that’s just how he talks. He’s like “Pants.” And I’m like “Are you sure?” He’s like “I’m going pants.”

It was that, yeah.

Yeah.

I’m in the transcript now, spelunking, so…

Okay, cool. Yeah.

Yeah, it was. It was actually one of the references – I think you said “Number three, comfortable pants for remote working.” I guess it was an option to select…

Yeah, exactly.

And he’s like “I’m going pants.”

Oh, yeah. And then I laughed and I said “I love your conviction. He’s going pants. Alright.” So that just became the show title. Those are hard ones to name, because how do you name a game show without being boring…? And so I just named the game and I just picked some sort of sentence that somebody said.

Of course, props to Astronomer, it was also a good addition. That was with Changelog++ members… And of course, the last one went crazy… “Sheer Resistance”, probably the most conservatively played game #define. A lot of piling on. We’re gonna have to change the rules a little bit to just stop the pile-ons all the time. You guys all picking the same answers, man.

That’s the easy button, you know? When in doubt, pile on.

That’s right.

That’s the closest I got to winning, too.

That’s true.

I won in Plus Plus somewhere, too. One of these, I think…

That’s right. Yeah, you did. You won in the after show.

And I didn’t even play my trump card here on this one either. I had the access to an LLM and I forgot to do it. The game ended before I can – I was like “When can I play my triple word score? Come on.” And I didn’t.

That’s when they have the coach coming in pitch for you, you know, and then you just stare down a strike, and he strikes you out. You get struck out by the coach, that’s what that is.

Ah… Yeah, I missed my spot there on that one. Yeah, I agree, those are fun, unique-styled shows. Not your typical podcast. We hadn’t any idea for a while, and then we was like “Coding shows, or coding –”

Dev game shows.

It was dev game shows, but a long time ago it was like code games, I believe was the –

Code games.

…original kind of idea. And I think it was in Slack. We were trying to do something in Slack, and I think you did it for a little bit, and it just didn’t really catch on.

Right.

So there’s been iterations to maybe where we’re at from just the idea of like playing games together…

Right.

So… That’s cool.

Yeah. Alright, your turn.

Is this a – how many more should I do? Like, how much more time should we spend doing this? I can probably throw one more out there, or two more at least.

Let’s go one more each… You can do two, I’ll do one.

Okay. I would say – well, I wanted to make this one the last one, but I’m not going to do it. Werner, man… Talking to the CTO of Amazon, Werner Vogels on the pod… That’s recent. It’s recency bias.

That is recent.

[01:22:07.21] Just really interesting to talk to a legend like that on a podcast, and to go through predictions, and to just talk about things that isn’t like “So how does Amazon work?” Or “How does AWS work?” I mean, that’d be kind of cool too, but at the same time, you get to zoom out and get theory. Like, I’d rather get theory from that level of a thinker, than prescription, like “Here’s what you go to do. A plus B gets you C.” I feel like theory, big picture, how he thinks… I got a snapshot of this legend… And I don’t want to call him an old guy necessarily, but he’s obviously – I’m old too, but he’s older than I am…

Right… [laughs]

I just mean it like you get to sit down with like an internet legend, and kind of a grandpa to software developers, and to platform makers. A visionary, a thinker, a discoverer… Like, he built it on his laptop… To me, that’s like “Wow.” You get to talk to somebody who’s made a dent in the world that big… That’s cool, man. I’ve kind of like got goosebumps now just thinking about it… It’s cool.

I agree… And I’m also going to go recent, because I had so much fun learning about Zipline, man… I felt like – cool guest, cool company, cool combo of questions from us… There was a good balance to that show… I feel like we all hit it off, and I honestly just think that it’s a seriously cool technology, that is right on the… You know, it’s before it changes the world in good ways, but I think it’s going to. And yeah, there’ll be unintended consequences, as there are with all new tech, but I just think it’s… I still just can’t wait for Zipline to be in Omaha, because I want to order a Chipotle burrito and have it delivered to my house while it’s still too hot and it’s going to burn my mouth. I want it to just come down out of the sky. I think that’s just a magical thing, and I think it’s going to just be a cool piece of our lives here in the future… And I like to be able to learn about it before it’s out there.

Much bigger and smaller than I expected.

Yeah.

Hundreds of drones –

400, he said… Which was less than I thought he was going to say.

Yeah, I thought it was going to be like a serious fleet. That’s still a serious fleet, but… Here in Texas, from what I can tell, Dallas-Fort Worth area makes sense. Texas is big, Dallas is one of the top cities in Texas…

Yeah, it makes total sense. And the weather is amenable to it.

Yeah, it is. It does get colder there than it does, I guess – I used to live in Houston, and I live in Austin… And so I guess it gets a little colder here than it does in Houston… But I had been in Texas for a decade, and I’m like, “It gets cold here.” It gets like briefly cold in Houston.

But not like cold “It’s going to take your drone out of the sky” cold.

Right. So I just – you know, Dallas still gets enough chill that you can actually maybe get the inclement weather testing ability, but you also get the extreme heat. So you kind of get a little bit of both, really. You get a brief moment of extreme cold… Maybe brief there is like a month, maybe a couple of weeks. It’s cold still yet, but not like super, super-cold. And then obviously, Texas - gosh, do not come here in July or August, please. If you’ve got somewhere else to be, go. Go there. Don’t come here.

No doubt.

Yeah… What a shame. Anyways.

Alright, back to you.

That’s Texas for you. Okay. Less ceremonious, but still quite fun… Bringing it back to homelab - State of the Homelab Tech 2025.

Techno Tim.

Techno Tim. That was the only pod I did with him this year. Kind of bummed about that. I like to just circle back with him. I think instead I opted for Alex, not necessarily as a either/or, but just more just timing kind of thing… And I’m a fan of Tim, I love his channel, I love his exploration… He’s always got something cool to share, he’s a big thinker… He’s a cool dude, he’s a fun friend, and I just get energized around him, because he’s always got something – he’s got something to say about something, and he’s got some opinion about something…

[01:26:16.07] He’s really into the community, he’s doing a lot of cool stuff. And he’s a software developer, still in the daily. I think he kind of does a little bit of both, where he’s not a full-time content creator… He’s got a side job, or a day job, and then also his platform he’s built out, Techno Tim. I think he’s more in that than he is in his day job though, but I like his perspective on things. And so I miss him, I had fun talking to him earlier this year, and maybe we’ll do that sometime in January. Get that beginning of the year. Like, “What’s going to happen to home lab this year?” That’d be cool.

There you go. Alright, do we do best titles? Do we wrap with best titles?

Yeah, let’s wrap. Best titles.

Alright. So we already mentioned “Adventures in babysitting coding agents.”

Yeah.

We both love that one.

Yeah.

We both liked wsl.exe – cat hello.cs…

Yes…

I really liked “Over the top auth strategies”, mostly because it directly – it was a hard one to name, and then we had the reference… We actually talked with Dan Moore about all these different OAuth stuff, and 2FA, and blah, blah, blah, and passkeys… And then we couldn’t name the show. It was like, there was all these terrible names. And then it’s like “Wait a second… We talked about over the top”, which is the awesome Sylvester Stallone arm wrestling movie, that I don’t think Dan had seen, or he wasn’t aware of it… And we actually – I can’t remember why, but we… I don’t really know why we related to the conversation, but we got it in there on point… And then “over the top auth strats” - I wanted to go “Over the top auth strats”, but I think it was probably too obscure… Anyways, I thought that was a good one.

What was the actual title again? “Over the top” what?

“Over the top auth strategies”, which is kind of a little bit less cool, but more approachable… Like, people know what we’re talking about.

Yeah, I don’t know… I would have gone either/or on that one, now that I know that…

Oh, okay.

Strats would have been maybe one notch above current title…

We can go back and rename it. Nothing can stop us. It’s our show.

That’s right. There’s no slug that says that too, so that’s [unintelligible 01:28:20.21] make it into the URLs.

That’s right. Just episode 78, so there you go.

ID only, man…

What else do you like, title-wise?

Man, it’s a tough one there… That’s a tough one. Let me see if I’ve prepared well enough for this. I mean, it’s gotta be a good title, right?

Isn’t that what we’re doing? [laughs] Good titles, yeah. Good ones. I thought you had a list of these. My bad.

I’ve got a list of a lot of them, I’m just trying to figure out which one is the best title of them.

Oh. Well, you don’t have to pick the best. Just pick one you like and we’ll do a couple of them.

That’s so hard…

How about Try Harder? Ultrathink… [laughs]

That was good. That was a good one. That was a good one. I mean, there’s a lot of good titles in here, man. It’s a fun process to name these shows. Let me see if I can – I don’t know, I kind of liked… You know, honestly, I liked “Flowing with agents” with Beyang. That was a fun one to name.

That’s because it’s your code flow. It’s your agent flow.

Agent flow, yeah.

Yeah.

But that’s not the one I’ll choose. Oh gosh, here we go… Here we go. Are you ready for this one? Are you sitting down? No, you’re standing up, aren’t you?

I’m standing up, yeah.

Line 44 from my Markdown file, “Refactored in prison.”

Oh, yeah. It’s a great title.

Yeah, I mean… Good show. It didn’t make my list – I just… It was a good show. It was a really good show. But the title - that’s a good title, man. Like, “Reformed in prison”, refactored in prison…

Yeah.

And then talk to somebody in prison?

[01:30:00.00] Yeah, good show.

I could probably come up with better ones. I probably – it’s more of like a sad letdown on best title from Adam, but… So many to choose from. I can be here all day, telling you titles.

Oh, for sure.

You know this.

One other one I will pick, because it’s another movie reference, was the episode with Justin Searls and Mike McQuaid. I had a hard time naming that one… It’s about Ruby, and drama, and “Open source is not a career”… But I already knew that was kind of Justin’s title he was going with, because it was a crossover episode on both podcasts… And I couldn’t think of anything. I think I sent you like seven different things, I can’t even remember… And then finally, I was just like – oh, actually, you know what? I was talking with Justin about it. It wasn’t you, it was Justin, because he asked me what I was going to call the episode, and I had sent him some stuff… And I just wasn’t happy with any of the titles, and then I thought “You know what? This is one there where Mike at the beginning said like “I’ve got to be able to cuss on the episode.” And I said “You can’t cuss– I mean, you can cuss on our episodes. Fine. But you’re going to get bleeped.”

Yeah.

And that’s why he’s like “Well, let’s put it on Breaking Change, it’ll be unbleeped over there, it’ll be bleeped on the Changelog…” And so the title, “There will be bleeps” I thought was a great… There Will Be Blood, of course, movie reference… Also tantalizing, like “Okay, I’m not sure what they’re talking about, but it’s going to get spicy…” I thought that was a pretty good title. It saved me from an otherwise terrible title. I had like six bad ones before, and then I thought, “You know what? Let’s go a different direction.”

Yeah. Sometimes you have to be a little out there in your thinking, but spot on just as well. What a good movie, though, There Will Be Blood…

Oh, man. One of the best.

Daniel-Day Lewis, man… The method actor of method actors…

He is so good.

His costar in there was really good, too.

Yes.

The kid in the end – he’s not a kid anymore, but at the time he was younger…

Right. Dana-something, or…

I don’t know his name off the top of my head, but fantastic actor. Just a phenomenal movie.

And I think I heard that he got swapped in like two weeks before filming started onto that, off of somebody else.

Yeah?

Fact-check me, or somebody else can afterwards, but I heard that… Which would be amazing, to know that he actually swapped in late, because his performance is top notch.

Spot on. Yeah. His name is Paul Dano. You were pretty close.

Dano, yeah. What did I say? Dave? Dan?

Dana-something.

Yeah. Dana is what I was saying, yeah. But yeah, Paul Dano. Yeah.

2007 this movie came out, so… Not recent.

It takes place right there in Texas, doesn’t it? I mean, it’s all about oil…

You know, I don’t know if it’s in Texas.

I don’t know that either.

It might be in Texas.

I assume it is, but it might not be.

I don’t know if it’s clear what the setting is. If it’s in Texas – it probably isn’t Texas.

I mean…

Where else would it be, when it comes to oil, you know?

Yeah. it’s like the Wild West oil trade. It’s got to be Texas.

Yeah. What a – “Ruthless silver miner turned oil prospector…”

Exactly.

That’s the way to open a movie right there, man. Go watch it, it’s in 4K… If you’ve got a theater, or if you’ve got yourself a Plex box… Go buy it on Amazon, or steal it, if that’s what you do… I don’t think you should do it, but you know…

That’s… That’s your advice?

No, I just heard that a lot of people are bypassing –

“…or steal it…” [laughs]

Well, it kind of goes to the fact that you can’t get physical media anymore, you know? And so if you can’t get access to the physical media, I mean…

What are you going to do?

Yeah. I mean, I guess the only option would be to…

Steal it, I guess.

Yeah, steal it.

[laughs]

I’m not suggesting you do that, though. My recommendation is go and buy it… Take yourself and get yourself Make MKV, pop that in there… And then rip it. It’s your Plex. And then keep it forever. And that’s what I shall do, because that is – I think I actually own that movie. I don’t own it in 4K, though. I think it’s in HD. Yeah.

Take that out there in the burn pile you know… HD - good for nothing.

[01:33:58.14] You know, honestly though, if you watch HD versus 4K HDR back to back, side by side, you’ll know what I’m talking about. The sound is different, the visuals are different… And in fact, one of the things I use is a way to gauge if I’ll buy the 4K Blu-ray or not, is I go to blu-ray.com, and they do phenomenal reviews for when a film makes it to 4K HDR. And they’ll talk about the picture, and the sound, and it scores it… They pull out stills, and frames from it… It’s really well done, really great site.

Nice.

And it’s what I track to know new releases, too. Because being as old as we are, there’s films back in our day, basically, that are now coming to 4K.

Right.

And one of the ones I just watched recently was Terminator 1. I mean, take a film that was never… I guess “Never intended for 4K” - I can’t say that really, but like… Who knew the future exists in the past? That’s just how it works. But this film is funnily CGI, like so bad. So bad. And it just screams through CGI even more when it’s crystal clear in 4K.

Like, what stuff is CGI? When he gets like his skin blown off, and you can see the metal underneath, and stuff?

Oh, yeah… You can tell it’s a puppet. It’s so nasty… When he’s looking at himself in the mirror, on one shot it’s clearly an animatronic… I mean, just like the whole thing is animatronic.

So it’s almost better in low res, because you can’t see all that.

Yeah, it kind of ruins it. It really does. I mean, if I’m being honest, if you don’t like going to an open casket funeral or something like that, man - that’s kind of what it is, okay?

[laughs]

That ruins the movie in a way for you… Don’t do that.

Right. Don’t do it. Get the 1080p, you know?

I mean, I guess in that regard –

…with the 720p; go back on DVD and just stretch that sucker. You’ll never know.

You know what I thought about doing though, Jerod, was this, man - I was like “I’m going to go buy…” I’ll reveal. I reveal the deep cut here.

Okay…

I was going to go on to our favorite place called eBay, and purchase a VHS player, and RCA that to my receiver; not optics, not nothing like that, no HDMI… RCA. The red, the yellow, and I think the white, I think, brings the audio… Mono audio… And the film I wanted to get, what was provoking me to do this was Cutting Edge.

Was that like a skiing movie?

Very close, yes.

Snowboarding, maybe?

Very, very close. It was ice skating.

Okay… [laughs] That makes sense.

With D.B. Sweeney…

That one sounds like a Will Ferrell comedy.

You know what? I think it inspired…

I think it probably did. [laughs]

…Blades of Glory, if that’s what you’re thinking of.

Blades of Glory, there you go. Yeah, I’ve never heard of that… Why…?

Because my wife and I both loved this film before we knew each other. It was released in ’92… And so this is one of those movies that as you learn more and more about your wife over the years… Like, it took probably 10 years for her to tell me that this was one of her favorite movies.

Oh, this is a rom-com. I was expecting it to be more of like an ‘80s chick flick… But it’s a rom-com.

Oh, yeah. Sports and romance, dude.

Wow.

I mean… It’s double-edged.

I mean, if you consider figure skating sports… Sorry, just offended some people there. Of course, the guy has a hockey stick. So he plays hockey, and she’s a figure skater… Is that the storyline?

[01:37:38.08] Yeah. Former olympic hockey player Doug Dorsey, played by D.B. Sweeney, pairs up with stuck-up figure skater Kate Mosley. Maurya Kelly is her name… And the way they come together… It’s a good love story. I’m a romantic at heart, and… But this is the one that was provoking me. I was like – and I haven’t done it yet. So now that I’m seeing this again, I kind of want to do it. And it’s mainly brought on by the letdown that was 4K Terminator. I kind of wish I didn’t do that.

You don’t wanna be let down by 4K cutting edge.

Yeah. Well, I was telling Heather, I’m like “Babe, it’d be so cool to have a theater like we have, a 120-inch screen, laser 4K projector, super-awesome sound system, and then put a VHS player in there, and watch old films from our back in the day.”

Old films from 1992…

I mean, it’s an old film.

Now it is, you’re right. What’s the worst that could happen, though? It’s not the kiss scene they cut to like a mannequin, or something… Like, there’s no CGI in this thing…

Not in that one. Yeah, that one there’s gonna be fun. Like, I thought for the nostalgia, because I know when I watched it originally it was probably VHS. Oh, yeah.

So I go back to the roots, you know? It wasn’t on DVD…

Then you should also go one step further and get one of those auto rewinders, so you can rewind all your VHS is, you know?

Oh, yeah. For sure.

Put it in there… Be kind. Rewind.

Be kind, rewind, man. Be kind, rewind. Yeah. So there you go… Yeah, I’d probably skip Terminator in 4K, unless you just have to have the nostalgia… It was laughable though, man… So I’m going to watch Terminator 2, and I’m hoping it’s not a ruin…

Yeah. I think that one will be better.

Some films though are just amazing. The Alien series - Alien, Aliens… Those are two distinct movies. Aliens was second, Alien was first…

Right. A rare example of a sequel being better than the original, perhaps?

Yeah, for sure. And like Aliens - there’s a lot of talk like don’t go and watch it because it’s so crystal clear now, it’s so good. Like, it almost ruins the original grunginess of it…

Weird.

But they kind of introduced it in the process. So it’s clear, but it’s also grungy… I think it’s good, personally. That one didn’t have a lot of ruin for me. But Terminator was kind of funny, man… It was kind of funny. That’s what you get. [unintelligible 01:39:57.09]

There you have it, a little bit of movie hour there at the end. Awesome. Well, there you have our list. Check the show notes if you want to click through to any particular episodes… Otherwise, have a great holiday, and New Year’s, and end of your year, and we’ll see you all on the other side.

You know what? Actually, one more – I’ll throw in one more thing here at the end. I think you’ll like this. There was a mention in Zulip to talk about the longest-running Zulip thread from an episode… And I think we should have the folks listen to this. Like, if you didn’t get a voicemail in, you can still get your word in edgewise. Go to Zulip. Changelog.com/community. Hang out with us there, comment on this episode… Some of your favorites. Start a conversation if you’ve got some downtime during this holiday, and maybe throw some notes in there and hop in on this episode in Zulip and comment on your favorite episodes if you want to chime in.

Or your favorite ’90s era rom-coms.

Or your cutting edge. Whatever your cutting edge is, share it.

Yeah, what’s the cutting edge to you? That’s a great question.

That’s right.

Alright. Bye, friends.

Bye, friends.