Very important agents

Well, Vim was backwards. You can’t have that.

Oh, my goodness…

Gotta represent.

[unintelligible 00:02:34.25]

It was Miv.

[laughs] You know, my daughter’s friend apparently was telling her class that my license plate stands for Very Important Man… Which I felt super-embarrassed about. [laughter]

How lame would that be if that was actually what you… “My dad’s a very important man, and he thinks he is, therefore he got himself a license plate that tells you that.”

Oh, that would be the worst.

Well, that’s hilarious. Well, that’s when you leave the kids to figure stuff out on their own. They’re going to just… They’re going to figure out what that acronym stands for.

I weep for the youth…

Isn’t that the case of every older generation, that at some point they weep for the youth?

Yes.

Right? I never thought I would be there, but I concur.

Just a lot of crying. We’re just doing a lot of crying.

So much crying…

And complaining. Where was I last week? I had to get my complaints out, and I just like “Hold on guys, let me complain about something and then we can move on.” I forget what it was, but… I don’t know. It was the way of the world. And it’s just like “Why? Why are we like this? Why do we have to complain about the way things are? Just accept, embrace and extinguish”, or something like that.

Something like that, yeah. Enjoy.

Get extinguished.

Enjoy. Accept, embrace, enjoy.

Yeah, you might as well, because…

That’s where I’m at. Like, “Well, what choice do you have?”

Just hem and haw, that’s all we can do. Can’t change anything, you know?

I’m more concerned about this new look Nick is rocking. Not just the shirt, and being a very important man, but…

Do you like that?

…slightly more fluffy on top there.

Instagram. Instagram is how I get my style.

Instagram sold you that T-shirt?

It did. I mean, some ad on Instagram… It keeps zooming in on me, but let’s see if it’ll zoom in on Pierce. It’s him holding a –

Oh, he’s holding an N64 controller.

While playing GoldenEye.

Ah, that’s sick.

That’s dope, man.

They pegged you demographically and got you to buy that.

That was one of the best games of all times. Modern for us in our era, back in the day for many… Or not in the day at all for most…

[laughs] It was back in the day for us, not back in the day for many. Yeah.

Speaking of, since we’re just like picking apart my appearance… Does my face look extra flushed?

Were you Santa recently, Nick?

I was not.

Because your parents is very Santa-like, and it is December.

What is this [unintelligible 00:05:00.10] you’ve got going?

Oh, well, that is from my new favorite thing in the world, which you’re not going to believe… All it cost me was my dignity, and that’s…

I’m excited. What?

I, before coming home to record this fantastic show with y’all, I was at a coffee shop… Wearing my Vision Pro, working…

At a coffee shop?!

At a coffee shop.

You’re that guy.

I’m that guy, and proud to be it.

You’re the VIM. You’re the very important man, with his very important Vision Pro on his face.

Now, Jerod, had I known this information prior to the invitation, I would have considered rescinding.

Just rescind that – I mean, we could do it right now and [unintelligible 00:05:40.18] a five-minute episode…

Alright, y’all, this is the show. That’s it. Nick dropped the ball.

Sorry, guys. We can’t hang out with this guy. So who gave you this idea, and why did you follow it?

I’ve been doing a lot of travel, which - I’ve been spending a lot of time on airplanes. And trying to get work done – I’ve been flying mostly to San Francisco, and I’ve been flying United… And for some reason, the Omaha to San Francisco direct flight, for some reason, has free Starlink, which is amazing. So I can literally like stream TV shows.

Oh… That is cool.

And have fast internet. I could take Zoom calls, but I’m not that guy. Not yet.

You’re not? I don’t know, dude… [laughs] We’re gonna have to reconsider.

Might as well…

Right.

Might as well.

Is there Zoom in the Vision Pro? Maybe…

There is. There is. And when you connect with that, you connect with your avatar. So they just see like a weird 3D representation of me, which is amazing.

Is that what we’re looking at right now, or…?

Could be. No, this is really me.

This is really you.

Did you get the Ray-Ban glasses yet?

I have a pair. I used to work [unintelligible 00:06:39.18] Not the ones with the glasses…

Were you a glasshole? I can’t remember if you were a glasshole or not.

I was this close…

Oh, okay. Now we know where he draws the line… Or at least you used to draw it.

He’s an edger, man. He’s on the edge.

He is. You have all the cool new toys. So when did you get this Vision Pro? This is news to us.

Yeah. I got it pretty much the day it came out… The day it came out I was in San Francisco, and I walked over to the Union Square Apple Store, and they didn’t have one –

Oh, the new one. This is the new one.

Yes. I mean, the new one as in it has an M5 and literally nothing else new.

Right. Like, they re-released the same thing with an updated chip.

I know. I know I’m a sucker.

Did they reduce the price, too?

Sure didn’t… [laughter]

This is Apple we’re talking about. They never reduce prices.

They bumped it a little bit, too.

They probably did. Did they?

I mean, I shouldn’t say this, but when you’re spending that much, and they didn’t have it in stock, the one that I wanted, but they had the terabyte model, which was only like a small percentage of the total cost more to upgrade… I just got that.

How much of the small percentage was it? Can you be specific?

I don’t know exactly… I got the one terabyte model.

[00:07:54.26] You didn’t wait in line, did you? You weren’t waiting in line outside the…

Oh, no.

Okay. Because I’ve just got a great visual of you downtown San Francisco, waiting in line with someone else… They’re waiting for like a crack hit or something, and you’re waiting for your Vision Pro…

They had their Rat Pack jackets on. [laughter]

Nick and some miscreants out there… Okay, so you didn’t have to wait in line.

Drop a ding there, Jason. Drop a ding there. That was a Silicon Valley reference. Nobody gets it.

I didn’t hear what you said.

I actually missed it.

They had the Rat Pack jackets on.

[unintelligible 00:08:24.09]

In the line, when Dinesh walking around with his Rat Pack jacket… It’s very colorful. Jerod Dunn from the show made them, and they were just a version of hideous. Flamboyant… I don’t know if I would call it flamboyant. Definitely like a version of a peacock, but like a poor version of it. It’s like a varsity jacket gone wrong.

Oh, cool. Yeah.

Yeah, it’s kind of cool, actually.

Something that you’d imagine them wearing.

I’m telling you, if I had one, I would wear it right now. It’s cool.

Well, I see you have it playing in the background right next to your Cloudflare memorabilia…

Yeah, it’s a little bit back there… Where they at? Oh, there’s –

You must’ve fixed your Arch, by the way. Last show, Nick, Adam couldn’t run his television, because it had Arch as its base OS, and he couldn’t even get it to boot last week.

I could get it to boot… It just had issues, and I didn’t feel like dealing with it. It had one too many DIMMs. Now, I do have a friend who works at AMD, and he said “Hey, share with me your build specs and I will see what I can do.” And I said “Well, this isn’t customer support. I just want to know why the AM5 controller has such issues with four DIMMs?.”

Wait, so you’re running Linux right now?

I can’t talk about that… Yeah, back there I am. Always, man. It is officially the year of Linux desktop for me, man.

Are you running Linux, or is Linux running you? That’s the question.

You know…

Well, if I would have known this, I would have rescinded my acceptance… [laughter]

[unintelligible 00:09:48.14] I am the very important man here, okay?!

That’s right.

I’m the Vim.

Well, Nick, I thought maybe your face was all flush because of this news that just came out this afternoon…

Oh, gosh… What’s the news?

Well, I’ve got some news… I’m not sure if my news – Nick, you’ve heard some other news maybe.

Are you gonna – what is it called? Paper rocks scissors it?

No, I think we should count down from three and say the news at the same time.

Alright.

Okay. Three, two, one – Bun is being bought by Anthropic.

Yes…!

Oh, you didn’t say it. You were waiting for me.

I said Bun. I didn’t know if you were going to say Anthropic or Bun, so I was trying to match.

I know… That was good. So Anthropic, the corporation behind such products as Claude and Claude Code… I’m not sure what else they’ve got going for him.

Claude for Chrome…

Okay, which we’ll –

We might talk about that later…

That’ll come up later, for sure. I think they used Bun. I think Claude is like written in Bun style JavaScript stuff. I guess, is there a Bun style? I’m far enough away from Bun at this point. I’ve interviewed Jerod a couple of times, but it’s been a few years… That I can’t remember how different it is from Node. Is it Node compatible?

I think so…

Okay. So it’s like, take your Node code and run it faster, with some other stuff they had over there. Anyways, I’m flaunting my ignorance here… But I’m pretty sure that Claude Code is written in Bun, and then Anthropic, because they’re flush with all this investor money, I assume… Like, raising billions and billions of dollars… And they’re like “Yeah, we’re going to buy Bun.” And Bun said yes, which I think is what I would say if I was running Bun. Wouldn’t you, guys?

I mean, they’re probably getting a bun-ch of money…

That’s a bun-ch of baloney… I’m just kidding. That sounds buntastic.

I don’t know what to think.

Oh. Why not?

I mean, it’s exciting, right? But what do they need to do to Bun that they couldn’t do as like this more open thing, or like independent thing?

[00:12:04.27] What does Anthropic need Bun to do, or to do to Bun, as you said?

If I was a diehard bunner, is this good news for me or is this bad news? Because Anthropic’s preference on whatever direction they need to take Bun into is now where it’s going. And so does that mean I left out because maybe it’s not the direction that I’m also hoping my product will go with Bun? Or do I now have like special treatment, because now Anthropic or Claude will inherently know everything about Bun, and know how to perfectly write code for Bun applications? …as just a side effect.

Or was Bun Inc. - or whatever they call it. Oven? I can’t remember what they call it. They’ve got good puns over there. Were they on their last a couple of months of payroll, and they didn’t find a way of monetizing, and Anthropic is like “We want this thing to continue”? It’s open source and MIT licensed, so the project would continue to exist, but not at the pace of progress that a full-time team can put behind it… And maybe it’s one of these bailout situations where it’s like “Let’s acquihire”, because Jarred Sumner and his team, obviously, very talented engineers, built something that’s quite useful and good, and has helped push the industry forward in the JavaScript server side world… “Let’s use some of this extra cash that we’re sitting on”, because they’ve raised so much money. Now, that being said, they’re also burning through a lot of it with GPU purchases, with rentals, with data center buildouts… They’re doing all kinds of stuff, Anthropic, and we don’t know if they’re actually making money per token at this point. Somebody probably knows, but I don’t know. Are they still losing money every time somebody does an inference? I know they’re losing it on you, Nick. I know they’re subsidizing your account…

Oh, I don’t know… I think I’m subsidizing everyone else’s. [laughter]

Or not. I don’t know. That’s something that’s – Anthropic is private, so they and their investors know that answer at this point. But if they are flush with cash, they certainly have cash on hand, and they’re probably looking for ways to spend it. It seems like a non-expensive, in their – I mean, expensive for us to buy, but not expensive for Anthropic to buy, proposition. But I definitely get your hesitation, like “Where might it go from here?” You never know. If the AI industry is a bubble, and the bubble bursts, is Anthropic more sustainable than Bun is? I don’t know. They seem like they are… They certainly seem like they’re on stable ground. But time will tell.

Yeah. It’s exciting, I think. It’s a win for JavaScript overall. I think that Bun and Deno are serving their purpose of moving Node forward, and maybe this is just like giving the torch back to Node a little bit on that… Because they’ve made a lot of great progress, I think in the more recent versions. There’s not a feature of Bun that I feel like I don’t get in Node. Maybe I just don’t know. I don’t pay attention to Bun too much, but… You can run TypeScript without compiling, which is great. You can compile binaries… ESM still sucks, but everything else seems good. There’s like an SQLite library like built in now? Or coming, at least? That’s cool.

Gotta have it built in, man… Does it get it to a single binary? Is it always a full flush, full feature web app? Is there binaries? Can you compile to a binary?

You can. I think it’s like bundling up the JS runtime and all of the Node modules into some kind of binary that can run, without you having to have Node installed. But…

In that case you’d want that SQLite built in, because you don’t want to have to have reliance on anything else in the system so you can ship a binary. But if you have to rely on SQLite being installed, then that’s not cool.

[00:16:15.27] Yeah.

Sure. Yeah, I don’t think their all-in-one binaries are anywhere near as efficient as like Go’s, for instance. They’re going to be quite large, and I think Deno’s is the same way, where it’s like, it’s a large binary, even if it’s a small program. Now, if it’s a large program, who cares? But if you want to roll out a three megabyte compiled thing, you’re not going to get that without some fancy footwork from Bun. And I don’t think from Deno either. But the convenience is certainly there, which is really most of it at this point. I mean, we’re all very rich when it comes to hard drive space and bandwidth.

For sure. You know, earlier this year I was at SquiggleConf, that our friends Josh Goldberg and Dimitri Mitropoulos run… And there was a speaker there, Oliver Medhurst. I think he was there at Firefox before what they’re doing now, which is building a version of JavaScript that can compile to a straight binary, without having to have that wrapper.

Really?

When they were telling me about it, I was really excited. I’m like “Oh, this is where–” Imagine that being built into Claude. Like Claude Desktop, or like ChatGPT, and like you just being able to have that runtime that just can immediately and super-quickly run whatever it’s thinking. And like it can validate the code that it’s giving back to you on the fly, because it did it all right there in the browser. This feels like it may be a move towards that. To be honest, I didn’t read the blog post. I saw the tweet. That’s all I –

Sure. Well, the blog post, at least from Bun’s side, is very straightforward, well written. Jarred Sumner penned it. And he does say what doesn’t change is that Bun stays open source and MIT-licensed, so that’s great. It continues to be extremely actively maintained. The same team still works on Bun. Bun is still built in the public, on GitHub. And then it says “Bun’s roadmap will continue to focus on high performance JavaScript tooling, Node compatibility, and replacing Node as a default server side runtime for JavaScript.” What does change is we will help make coding tools like Claude Code and Claude Agent SDK faster and smaller.” So there you go. “We get a closer first look at what’s around the corner for AI coding tools, and make Bun better for it, and Bun will ship faster.”

Okay.

So that’s from his perspective today. Now, we’ve read a lot of these acquisition posts where the first thing they say is “Nothing is changing.” And it’s like, nothing was going to change for GitHub either when Microsoft acquired GitHub… But here we are, five years later, and it has changed quite a bit, hasn’t it?

Wait, GitHub still exists? It’s not just Copilot?

Dang…

Well, there’s another story going on today, which – not today, but it’s started a little while back and continues, which is that people are starting to move off GitHub now.

Where are they going?

Codeberg. Codeberg, which is a GitHub-alike, run by a nonprofit in the European Union. And I’m not sure all the intricacies there, except that they are seemingly – and I don’t want to make this sound bad, but maybe it will… They’re seemingly only interesting insofar as they’re a GitHub-alike that’s a nonprofit, and run from the European Union. I don’t see anything with their technology that looks like it’s new or attractive. Like, they’re not going to disrupt because of that, because of technology. They’re going to disrupt because GitHub is a broken windows situation over there at Microsoft, and getting more and more bloated, and shoving Copilot in our face everywhere we turn, and people are getting sick of it… And so here’s a different place to land.

[00:20:11.24] And so Zig has moved off GitHub to Codeberg, and there’s a few other that are doing that as well. Some of it is ideological, social concerns, and then the others is just like JavaScript bloat and GitHub Actions not working as it’s supposed to, and just complaints about the platform. As a platform, basically, Microsoft has been ignoring the core product, which we’ve all felt in various ways.

This looks exactly like GitHub, in a lot of ways…

It does. It’s basically like “Let’s do GitHub, but somewhere else.”

The UX of username, repo is locked in… There’s so much that’s locked in. I was just telling you this too, Jerod, recently… I can’t imagine a world where Git isn’t it, the thing we use… Although JJ is really coming for Git’s good stuff, I suppose… And I guess GitHub - it’s stamped itself as the gold standard of the UX; not so much the platform itself, but the UX of username, repo, even pull requests, even releases… All these things that are sort of nailed down, even down to Actions, and stuff like that. It’s cemented itself as the primary user experience to follow. It doesn’t surprise me. Where do you go? You go here, you’ve got code, you’ve got issues, you’ve got releases, you’ve got activity.

Pull requests, not merge requests, or whatever…

GitLab calls them merge requests?

Yeah.

To this day, merge requests. Like, “No, you lost that bet.”

“We’re not going to call it that, GitLab. You can work as hard as you want.”

I can’t believe they’ve gone this far with merge requests.

You know how far Leo Laporte went calling podcasts netcasts? I mean, it took him a decade to finally give up on it.

He’s still doing it.

No, he doesn’t do it anymore.

No, he’s not doing it…?

I actually listened to MacBreak Weekly last week, and I remember distinctly hearing “Podcasts you love, from people you trust”, and I’m like “He finally gave it up. He finally gave up netcasts.” He just wasn’t going to call it podcast.

“This is Twit.”

I mean, he’s been highly successful, but he did not have enough clout to change people to call it netcasts. And GitLab did not have enough clout to get us to call them merge request. It’s just not going to happen.

It was an uphill battle the whole way. The whole way.

Do y’all call them pods? Are you onto that?

Sometimes, yeah. Well, not usually plurally, but individually. Like, “the pod”, or “Let’s do a pod.”

Okay.

I was in a meeting before this and said “I’ve gotta go. I’ve gotta pod.”

Nice.

Do you hate that term? [laughs]

I did. I’ve come around to it.

“I did… Until I realized you guys say it. Now I’m going to back off.” No.

No, no, no, no. I’ve come around to it, but… I can’t remember where I first started hearing it…

Yeah. I definitely resisted at first. I resist lots of stuff, and eventually I’m like “Meh, it is shorter…”

I did, too. I was like “Pod? It’s a podcast. Come on.”

Is the pod the important part, or the cast? I guess we’ve all decided the pod is what it is.

Nobody even realizes probably anymore that that’s from like iPod, right?

Probably not.

The connection is lost.

Yeah.

Wow. Right, though? I mean, that’s the thing, too - you have to appreciate the small beginnings… And the iPod was not a necessarily a small beginning, but the idea that podcasts began in a place that didn’t exist when Steve jobs was saying “A thousand songs in your pocket.” What was the number? Like 10,000?

I think a thousand was the one that he started with.

Was it a thousand?

That was the first one, yeah.

In your pocket. And that’s what started off the opportunity for a podcast to be a thing, which was independent distributed audio via an mp3, on a device that became super-popular. That’s the –

Oh, and it was painful back in the day, because I was an early, early adopter, and it was not easy to get your actual mp3 files onto your iPod… Because you had to go into iTunes. You subscribed in iTunes…

What’s iTunes? I’m just kidding.

[00:24:01.12] Exactly. Doesn’t exist anymore. Apple Podcasts now. But it was called iTunes back then. Also Apple Music…

Yeah.

And then you had to actually sync it to your iPod before you leave the house, and then you’d take them with you.

And there was no third-party podcast players. And Apple didn’t really have one, it was just built into iTunes. It was awful.

Yeah, it was just the basic audio player.

That’s how bad we needed information back then. There was no TikTok, there was no – there was LinkedIn probably, but it wasn’t the LinkedIn it is today.

I don’t think so.

There was certainly no Twitter/X, there was certainly no Mastodon…

We’re talking like 2005… What year was this?

2004, I want to say, was the beginning of podcasts. Around 2003, 2004.

It probably wasn’t until 2008, 2009 that I started becoming a heavy podcast listener.

Yeah. I could be wrong on the numbers. I’d say 2004, is my…

I’m phoning a friend right now, so we’ll get some facts here.

Phoning a friend… But yeah, humble beginnings, man. An iPod started off podcasting, which we call pods now. We’re on a pod. There you go.

Oh, wow. I’m going to go ahead and do a mea culpa on this one. LinkedIn is longer than I thought it was. Holy cow. You were right, Adam. LinkedIn actually started in May of 2003. LinkedIn.

Yeah. Wow. It’s been around for a while.

When did Facebook start?

I’m like user number 23, Jerod on LinkedIn, okay?

You should have like 6 million followers over there.

Facebook was 2004, 2005. Because I graduated high school in 2005, and I was touring my college, and they brought us to a computer lab and had us sign up for Facebook…

They’re like “We have Facebook here.”

Yeah. I thought it was just part of like what the school did. I didn’t know that it was this thing…

That it was like the blackboard software? “We also have Facebook. You’re going to sign up right here.”

That’s how it was. Everybody signed up.

February, 2004 was Facebook, and podcasting was 2003 for the tech, and 2004 for the term. The term was coined in 2004 by journalist Ben Hammersley, who combined iPod with broadcast.

Good job, man.

So what I just learned is LinkedIn is ancient, man. That thing is ancient.

It is ancient. It’s gone through some iterations, too. I mean, it’s largely been a version of what it is, but now they have the timeline, and a lot of things happening there…

Their timeline is the worst one there is, isn’t it?

Yeah… There’s a setting, if you didn’t know this, that you can do chronological. So you don’t have to worry about them shoving it down your throat, with like –

I think it reverts, though. I’ve tried to set it before and a couple of weeks later it’s back to whatever it’s called. Algorithmically…

Yeah… The For You style.

You know what’s funny, is almost every time I log into LinkedIn, the first post that it shows me is somebody - it might be the same person, but it’s somebody posting the AOC “tax the rich” dress. Remember she wore that dress, that white dress to some red carpet, and it said “Tax the rich” on the back? And somebody is using that to make some sort of business point… Like, I don’t even have to click into it. I don’t care. But for some reason, at least once or twice a week when I log in LinkedIn, I see AOC and her “Tax the rich.” And it’s been like that for months.

Really?

So it’s either stuck in a loop, or that thing is super-popular. I think it’s like maybe a key to go viral over there.

Clear your cookies, man…

Yeah, I should log out…

Break: [00:27:23.06]

I’m surprised by Codeberg, honestly. I’ve heard of this, I didn’t give it much attention… And so you’re saying that Git recently moved?

No, I’m saying Zig. The Zig programming language.

Zig program. Okay, my bad.

Not Git itself, but Zig.

Yeah, my bad. Zig then. So Zig moved from GitHub to Codeberg.

And what they said - Andrew Kelly, who’s the founder – or sorry, the creator of the programming language… I guess he’s also founded it, but… Different communities there. What he said is that the only thing – or what I read out of his post as like the main thing that he’s going to experience pain moving away from is GitHub Sponsors. Because that’s how they have received a lot of the recurring donations, and have allowed the programming language to flourish over the years. And so now they’re moving off that, and they’re trying to find out how to get their donators to move with them, without losing a bunch of money. And so that’s their main concern. So there’s your moat, GitHub; it’s apparently Sponsors. Which also, they just completely ignore, right?

Yeah… That’s all I could do on that one, man.

[laughs] Long sigh…

You know, we’ve just – I just don’t even know, I guess. They need a head of product on it that just cares deeply, and won’t stop, or leave… And they just don’t have that, I think. Devin, she had different ideas… Who else was that we knew that worked there? Jessica, but I can’t remember her last name. Lord… She was there for a bit. She came on the pod when she first joined GitHub with that role. I did say pod… And then since then, I’m not sure who’s been in charge of it.

I don’t think anyone’s in charge of it.

I mean, yeah, they don’t even have a CEO, right?

No, they don’t.

What’s going on over there?

They’re just – they’re part of the AI-something. AI core.

How can you be the epicenter of open source, and it’s won, and not command the ship? I don’t get it. I don’t get it.

How can you be the epicenter of JavaScript. Like with GitHub, but also with TypeScript…?

Npm, yes.

With Npm, and - that was the one I was going to call out. How are they not completely embarrassed by how much they’ve let Npm languish? It’s terrible.

Is Isaac still there, or did he leave already? I’m not sure if Isaac’s still there or not.

I don’t think he’s there.

No.

Isn’t he doing Vault, or whatever…?

He was doing Vault, but he might have actually moved on from there. I don’t know, he moves a lot.

So he was going to come on the podcast. Yes, I said podcast… Just because I went that far back in history with Isaac’s. He was going to come on the podcast just before the acquisition, and he wanted to talk… But couldn’t, because why do that when you’ve got the save-me money coming in, right? And then maybe even the fun job for a bit. I wonder if he’s ready. Isaac, are you ready? Let’s do it.

[00:32:17.19] So when you say Isaac, you’re referring to the creator of Npm.

Yes.

Just for everybody who’s not been around as long as the rest of us have.

I have an old brain, and I’ve forgotten his full name in this moment… So I’m also just trying to use his known in my brain connection… What is his full name?

Isaac Schleuter.

Isaac Schleuter. There you go. Thank you. I knew I’d have it. I’m an old man who needs a dot connected. Isaac Schleuter. If you’re ready, Isaac, we have microphones. We have a pod. Come back to us.

Yeah, how do you do that? How do you be GitHub and be in that position…? I wonder if it’s just the fact that you’ve got so many engineers. Does that become a problem? Probably not, right? You can move fast with more engineers. I think it comes down to leadership, right? You’ve got to have leadership.

You’d think they’d have some kind of release to show that Npm was still alive, but… Their lunch is being eaten all around them, which is crazy. I think Socket’s doing a great job of having almost a better UI for Npm than Npm… Plus all of the security stuff. Really excited about that. And then I’m really excited about the JSR project from the Deno folks. That’s an exciting place to go.

Which is a new registry, right?

Yes. JS registry, I assume.

So you have JSR, then you have Bun, which is Npm-compatible… Who is the winner here? Who is the one on top that everybody’s feeding off of? Who’s the leech and who’s the leechers?

Node’s the winner.

I don’t know, Anthropic might be the winner at this point. They’ve got Claude Code. Claude Code’s winning.

Yes.

[laughs] Yes.

If you don’t think that, you’re wrong.

Well, they’ve got the UX. I mean – alright, I mean, Gemini 3 is really good.

For the weekend before Claude Opus 4.5 came out…

That’s right. Then again, it’s like “Back in your place there, Google.”

It’s a lot of leapfrog when it comes to the frontier models, for sure.

It wasn’t just that. I was a dedicated Sonnet 4.5 user before that. And specifically, when you’re paying the API rates, you can have the option for a million token context window… Absolutely amazing. I could work all day, on the same project, without ever clearing context, and I just never ran out. It was so good. And then…

I’ve never had that experience. I just – I reboot a lot.

But I was spending a lot of money. You can customize the status line in Claude Code, and one of the things you can put on there is just a running dollar amount of how much this conversation is currently costing you, or costing your company.

I don’t want to know that.

I do… It’s a leaderboard, man. [laughter]

You’re trying to be in the trillion token club, aren’t you?

I one time posted a picture of it where I ran /cost, and it was at $420.17 cents. And I just posted that screenshot in Slack and said “Am I in trouble?” [laughs]

Is that fixed on a $200 a month plan? Or are you actually paying that amount because you’ve got API tokens?

API tokens. So there is no limit. We never get – I mean, there is a limit, and we hit it once.

What is it?

I don’t know… [laughs]

Okay.

But it’s – I don’t know, they have different tiers of whatever. I don’t luckily have to think about that. But I will say that Opus 4.5 is not only better than all the other models I’ve used, it’s so much cheaper. So much. It’s crazy. I think Opus before that was like – it was $25 per million input tokens, and $75 per million output tokens… Now it’s $15 and $25, I think, respectively.

[00:36:06.28] Yeah, I guess I haven’t paid as close attention as you have on that front, Nick. You’re definitely the bleeding edge on this. You’re edging.

I mean, that’s – whatever. But I also think – I don’t know, my controversial take is like… OpenAI is over here, making cool things, don’t get me wrong… Their voice mode, having conversations with it - that’s the biggest competitor to podcast time in the car for me, is just like talking to ChatGPT, with a voice conversation…

Really?

Because I can lead the conversation wherever I want, and I can stop it, and I can interrupt, and go in a different direction completely. We can be talking about code one time, and then I can be asking it about the fourth dimension in the same conversation, and just like… It’s really fun.

So I’ve done a little bit of that, and honestly, I just run out of stuff to talk about.

Yeah.

Do you not run out of stuff to talk about?

Sometimes… And I don’t know, you catch yourself – you know that if you pause for too long, it’s just going to start talking, so you have to know what you’re saying… It’s a different dynamic.

It’s just smarter than I am. It’s commanding this relationship too much.

[laughs] That’s cool. And I think Sora is cool. Have you guys played with Sora?

The original, not Sora 2.

Like the TikTok…?

No, not the social network. You’re on there though, right?

I am, and I’m having fun just making –

Does that integrate with your Vision Pro at all?

I haven’t tried it.

Okay… Go ahead, tell us what you’re up to over there.

I just make – I put myself into classic movie scenes… Which you have to be careful about, because you can’t, like –

Like risky business?

Yeah. We just did a company onsite in San Francisco, and as part of that – I was part of a group that went to Alcatraz. So of course, before I went, I watched The Rock, so that I know what I’m looking at… And then I thought, “What’s the classic scene from The Rock?”, and it’s where Nick Cage has like the green smoke above him, on the roof…

That’s right. He’s on his knees…

Yeah. So I did that… And during that, my company, WorkOS - we had done this Enterprise Ready Conf. And so I just have me holding the green smoke on top of Alcatraz, going “Enterprise readiness achieved…!”, and it’s like stupid stuff. Right now I have a draft that I haven’t posted, which is me as an elf on the shelf, and I’m mischievously running around the house, adding “as any” to your types… Like, just doing silly stuff like that.

That’s pretty good, actually. Oh, gosh… I feel like you’re like the slop master. This guy’s just – you know, we’re all concerned about too much slop, and he’s just out there, slopping stuff all over the place, Adam…

Embrace the slop.

He’s embracing the slop.

He’s not just embracing it, he’s spitting it out.

He’s wearing it. [laughter]

Yes. Well, I do expect to see you on Tom Cruise’s body with the risky business slide in move by the end of the day…

Done.

Okay. [laughs]

[unintelligible 00:38:52.22]

Put that in the show notes. Yeah, totally.

That was really good stuff.

Wow. So Sora – this is Sora too, right? Because it’s not just a thing, it’s like a social thing, too. Is the social network like actually a thing?

It is, sort of… I don’t know, I don’t look at it. But –

What do you do with your videos? Just show them to your kids?

I download them… No, I do not show them to my kids. I made that mistake…

Okay… Specifically do not show them to your kids.

I have a six-year-old, and I made a video of me crashing a motorcycle. And I was going to send it to my mom, as like a “Could I trick her into thinking I got a motorcycle”, or something? …which is really dumb, because it has like professional camera angles of me falling off of this motorcycle, which is – anybody would know that, right? But I showed it to my six-year-old, and he started crying, because he didn’t like to see me get hurt. And I’m like “Oh, he can’t tell that this isn’t real.” So I don’t know… That’s done.

[00:39:53.01] His slop detector is not advanced yet.

Yes.

That’s sad.

Which – it got me thinking… That was a blind spot to me before, but now - gotta be careful raising kids in this AI…

Right. That’s why they think you’re a very important man. They’re like “My dad’s in all these movies.” [laughter] That’s rich.

But I do like the idea of that. It’s like what you’re saying - this is a battle you can’t win. Trying to say “Oh, we shouldn’t have this…” The toothpaste is out of the tube now. So it’s there. So I do think that it’s a good idea that Sora exists as this TikTok-like slider, where you’re not critiquing every video and being like “Is this AI?” Yes, every video on there is AI. So you just get to have fun with it.

Yeah.

As opposed to bringing those over to other ones, like TikTok or reels…

That was my take last week, telling Adam that it’s cool that at least they’re not trying to hide it. When I get offended is when they’re trying to pass it off as real, and then I find out it’s not; that’s when I get offended. But over there, it’s like “This is all AI.

You see that on reels. There’s people who actually try – it puts like a Sora watermark that bounces around on there…

People try to remove that, and you can catch it pretty easily.

Lame…

Yeah. Like, come on… I saw some tweet that was like “That thing is holding the fabric of society together”, that little watermark.

Oh, sure.

And I believe that. [laughter]

Yeah, to a certain extent… The question is when will the other models catch up? The ones that you can run on your commodity hardware, and build these things akin to what Open AI can do, without the Sora watermark. At that point, the fabric of society won’t be held together quite so well. Right? Yeah. It’s getting close.

But the point I was trying to make with Sora and their conversation thing and all of that is – and then there’s… I don’t actually look at the news, but I saw some headline about Sam Altman pausing their ads push to focus more on making ChatGPT better, because their lunch is being eaten…

Red alert, he called it. Red alert.

Yeah. I’ll believe that, for sure. But that’s my point. They market themselves as a $6 trillion company or whatever, and they’re chasing ads. They’re chasing Google and Meta into ads… They’re making a social network… Like, that’s where AGI is going? That’s where they’re focusing their time?

Meanwhile, Anthropic is just eating the enterprise, because Claude Code is just amazing. And then – I don’t know what Google’s doing, but they’re doing something… Nano Banana is really nice. And Gemini 3… But that was good for a weekend. They’re just being eaten. And I think that Anthropic is the one to watch right now, because of Claude Code. It’s just so good. It’s a good interface…

Yeah.

I’m coming here to shill Clauded Code, I guess…

Well, I think you can’t help it. It has earned its right to be schlepped in this way - to not be negative about it - because it is, it’s the winner. It’s the daily driver for most people. Now, I do dabble… We have friends over at Augment Code. I like Auggie… We have friends over at Sourcegraph, I like AMP… But those are consumers of Anthropic, so they’re just derivatives, really… But they do some cool stuff.

Did you guys see the news?

No.

Sourcegraph and AMP have parted ways.

What?!

They have split into two companies.

Yeah, it makes sense.

AMP is its own company now…

Wow…!

…led by Quinn and Beyang. And Sourcegraph is its own company now, led by somebody who - I don’t know their name, but they are now the CEO. And so it’s two separate entities, two boards, but the same investors… So there’s some – there’s obviously crossover, but they’ve just decided to… Probably for investment reasons and stuff like that, I don’t know.

[00:43:53.09] You know, I was at an AI conference last week in New York, and the AMP booth was two away from our booth… And it was just AMP. But I think it did say “by Sourcegraph.” But it had this cool AMP logo. I just held up the book, because I met Steve Yegge and Gene Kim and got the vibe coding book…

Oh, you got the vibe coding book.

I got it signed by them, which is awesome…

Nice.

Yeah.

Have they kept it up to date? Because when they wrote that, it was like six months ago. Is it still true?

I know, right? [laughter] I was excited to tell Steve Yegge that I was – I was on this podcast shortly after him, and I was just singing his praises on that.

Oh, you were. You listened to it twice, or something.

Yeah, yeah. Very exciting. And then I honestly didn’t know that Gene Kim also co-wrote this book, and I didn’t know at the time that he wrote the Phoenix Project, which is an amazing book… So that’s cool. Everyone should read The Phoenix Project, for sure.

But I’ve been going to a lot of AI events in San Francisco and other places, and one thing that I had noticed that I thought AMP was just like following the trend on was that they were AMP, not Sourcegraph. That’s how they’re marketing. And at an event a couple of months ago, it was VS Code. It wasn’t Microsoft. VS Code was the sponsor. That was the logo, that was everything. No Microsoft naming at all. And I thought that was just the way that they’re going. But that’s interesting. I didn’t know that they parted ways.

Yeah, they just announced it today.

So that’s bleeding news, man. Bleeding edge news.

That’s right.

December 2nd, 2025, you heard it here first. At least I did. I didn’t catch that news yet. Yeah, man… Wow. Good for them. I think that’s smart. I mean, I think that AMP was really pushing – I mean, it’s my favorite… I just can’t afford it. It’s my favorite to use. It seems to be expensive no matter how I hold it, so… And yeah, I just wish I was a little bit more richer. I wish I was a little bit taller. I wish I was a baller.

There you go.

Because then I can hold my AMP all day long, and I would love it. So I think AMP is phenomenal – even though it’s using the same models, it’s phenomenal at planning. It’s also phenomenal execution, but it’s phenomenal planning. I trust its plan so much… Consulting that oracle is just a delight. I just like saying “This is great, we’ve been planning this thing… But can you talk to the oracle about this?” Because that’s who really is going to bless this, right? They stamp it, “The oracle has blessed it.” But anyways, the oracle’s cool. Their thoughtfulness around the language they use around it is just cool… The handoff, for those of us who have to live under the context window, is just phenomenal… The handoff option - you push Ctrl+O, and you can hand off, once you get close to context completion, or I guess context filling, whatever you want to call that… And hand off the prompt, and it references the old thread for context, but it gets a new, fresh context window. I think that’s much better than Claude Code’s way, which is basically you’re mid something, and it’s like “No more for you. Just stop right there, and wait for the context window to come back.”

The pro move is like you come to a natural stopping point and compact before moving on. So you control that more.

Right. Yeah, I mean, you might have a bigger window than I’ve got, because it’s basically impossible to pro move that one. I think that’s like a chef’s kiss moment. A delight. It’s like finding a four-leaf clover, it just doesn’t happen too often.

You can run /context in Claude Code, and it will give you a little graph of how much context you’re using. And if I just spin up Claude and run /context without giving it anything, I’m at 112,000 tokens.

Oh, wow…

Dude… You need to trim up that Claude MD.

It’s that, it’s the MCP tools loading in…

How many tools are you using?

Not that many.

Apparently you are.

Well, MCP is hungry.

[00:47:52.22] It is. But that’s also an Anthropic thing, that is open… I think that skills are where it’s at, right now at least… I think that MCP is on its way out, and skills or something like it is on its way in… Because it’s just a better way. Or some kind of tool discovery.

Do you have any skills?

I do. I have a whole marketplace. You can get the Nick Nisi official marketplace.

What?! [laughter]

Now we know why he’s here… He’s going to shill his marketplace. Okay, let’s hear these marketplace skills.

Oh, they just have this – you can create a Git repo, and you put like a marketplace.json in it, and it can then… And then you can just say like “plugin add marketplace”, whatever, NickNisi/claudeplugins I think is mine. And then you can install all of these plugins from me, that are like agents, or commands, or whatever… And it’s just a way for me to like move them out of my dotfiles and into a way that you can pick and choose which ones that you actually want, and playing with it.

Yeah. What are some of the skills you may find there?

Yeah, do you have any nunchuck skills? Any bow hunting skills?

I’ve been talking a lot with Chris b0neskull Hiller. I almost said b0neskill, because he’s got b0neskills…

That’d be a good rebrand.

Yeah. We’ve been going back and forth on this, because he’s digging really into this as well.

Is he digging into this?

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

And one that’s really good is - I have a code simplifier one, that after we get something working, this just goes through and it tries to, in a way, deslopify the code. So it’s going to remove the comments that no human would actually write, it’s going to simplify things, it’s going to look for things… But it’s going to do it around the vision that it shouldn’t break the things that work right now. It should just clean the code up. And so that’s like a great thing to run…

Right. So I just told my Claude to do that at times. But does your skill have details about how you want that to happen? Is that what the skill is in there?

Yeah.

So you’re just saying like “Hey, do a pass and just clean everything up.” Like, it actually has details.

Yeah.

Okay. And how do you trigger that then?

It’s set up as an agent, a sub-agent. So it’ll like kick off its own context window and go. So I just say “Ask agent code simplifier to simplify this code”, or something like that.

Can’t you give it a cooler name than that? Like, why are you going to call it “Agent code simplifier”? Can’t you, like, “Agent X”, or something?

Well, because it’s in my marketplace now, it’s like @NickNisi:essentials/… I don’t know.

Oh, my gosh…

Yeah, it’s a whole thing now. But you could call it whatever you want. You could take it and copy it and call it whatever you want. That’s a cool one. I also made one that is a – it’s like a consultant, because I also want to experiment with these other models, and figure out what’s going on… And so I made a consultant that can do three different things, depending on how you ask it. The first one is you can be like “Ah, I don’t know –” If Claude is like spinning its wheels on something, or gets stuck, I can be like “Ah, that doesn’t sound right. Consult with Codex.” And it will go spin off a sub-agent call, open up Codex CLI as an MCP server, and talk to it, and ask it to weigh in. And it can do that with Codex, Perplexity, Grok, Gemini, and… Maybe it’s just Claude, as like a separate sub-agent. It can do that. It can also do a deep research, where it will ask all five of them to do deep research, and then it will collate the answers together, and give you a result. But then building on top of that, it can also deliberate, where it will ask them all to do the research or to answer a question, and it will get all five answers back, and then it will give all five answers to all five of them again and be like “Grok said this, Codex said that”, and have them like whittle down to an answer… And then it’s like “Oh, okay. Based on what you want, Gemini’s solution seems to be the best.”

Right. You need to get 12 of these set up, and then ask them what you should have for lunch, and just go scorched earth on your entire life. Just like, how much energy can I use on simple, mundane tasks? Ah, five is not enough. Can I get 12?

[00:52:12.18] “Lunch cost, $1,000.”

Yeah. [laughs] A million dollar question - what should I have for lunch?

Have we already talked about this? Because I’ve totally done that.

Have you really?

Oh, my gosh… [laughter] I’m what you might call a picky eater.

So is that part of your context window then? Like, Nick’s menu choices?

I was at a lunch, or a dinner, and it was at some weird fusion restaurant that nothing looked decent… And so discreetly, when nobody at the table was looking, I just kind of like snapped a picture of the whole menu and asked ChatGPT, I’m like “I’m pretty plain… What is the safest possible thing I could eat on this menu?” And he picked it out, and it was great.

That’s not a bad use, actually. I thought you were asking the whole quorum that question… But just ChatGPT, that’s just one.

Yeah.

That’s just fine. Go for it.

[laughs]

That’s what they’re there for… Those moments in life where you’re like “I could just use somebody else to scan this for me and give me some advice here.” Good use. Good use. Okay, so you’re just claude-coding it up, man…

Oh yeah.

I love it.

All day.

Now, how much of this is work?

All of it.

It’s all work?

[laughs] He’s contractually obligated to say that… “All of it.”

I’m currently a team of one, and so I make up for that by having up to – I think I’ve had up to 14 Claude Code instances running simultaneously… And I use TMUX to manage it all. I built like a little TMUX floating window dashboard that I can pop up and it shows me “This project is waiting on a response from you. This project’s done.” It shows me the Claude status of each one.

That’s smart.

Do you ever feel like you’re babysitting?

Yes. Constantly.

Yes. Constantly. I bet.

It’s also the worst when I’m digging into a problem that I don’t really know a lot about… It might be in some weird language that I don’t have a lot of context about, and I’m working with someone else, and they also – I don’t know if you’ve been in the situation yet, but it’s like me and another human are having a conversation, but there’s a long pause between each one because we’re both checking with our AIs before responding to each other… [laughs] And then our AIs will contradict each other, but we’re the middle persons between it… It just makes me hate this profession when I’m doing that.

Yeah, I was gonna say, you should just connect the two AIs and get out of the way, you know?

Yes. [laughs]

Yeah. You’re the API between them. [laughter] What does a team of one do, like you do, for WorkOS? What kind of things are you working on?

I work on all of the SDKs, across all of the languages and frameworks. It’s all open source, which is great… I have no qualms about pasting any code whatsoever into any of these models, because it’s all in GitHub anyway.

Yeah, no privacy concerns there.

What’s your mission with the SDKs? Improve them? Growth?

Survive, is mostly it… No, no. It feels like that sometimes, because a lot of work comes in and I’m just jumping from – I’ll be like doing something in this project, and then jumping over to Go, and jumping back into TanStack Start is fun, but also not fun right now… Just because it’s new; it’s got bugs. And it’s the RC, so I’m trying to keep up with what they’re doing, and it’s a time sink. But yeah, just keeping things up to date, adding new features, supporting new frameworks, or even new integrations. We just did a thing with Convex… So you can spin up a new Convex project and use WorkOS Auth as the auth provider for it, and it’ll create a WorkOS account in the background. And then when you’re ready, you can take that over. But that’s like a cool integration that we just did.

That’s cool.

Break: [00:56:09.03]

So AI coding is a huge part of your life. What about AI browsing? …if we might just turn our sights now on the new browser wars.

Oh, gosh…

There’s a brand new browser war, according to people in the know, such as The Verge, writing about browser wars… And they’re trying to agent our browsers now. Nick, are you agentically browsing?

Uhh… No. Not for lack of trying. There’s just no good browser anymore. All of the browsers suck. Top to bottom.

Really?

Hot take.

Every single browser.

Even Safari.

I’m currently using Safari as my daily driver… But yes, it sucks, because nothing works in it. Everything’s like “You should install Chrome for this.”

Right.

Just a shame. Well, on Fedora, I’ve been using, oddly enough, Firefox. It’s the default install… And it’s super-fast there. And I had Claude write down a better user.js file to like lock it down, and keep me safe, and make it fast, and all the good stuff… And it’s just browsing. It’s not a lot of work anyway, so I feel like that’s pretty cool. I’ve been pretty impressed, I would say. I didn’t think I would keep using Firefox for the default browser, but I have. But then on Mac, obviously, it’s Safari. And I really haven’t dabbled into as much as I want to. I think it would be a letdown, really. I’m not sure I want to browse the web and constantly have agentic AI summarizing things for me. I get the summaries, but there’s a time and place for it, and I’m just not sure I need it in my browser on the daily. I don’t know.

When I thought about this conversation though, in the browser wars, it’s like “How will the web change?” Is the web changing around AI insofar as that we’re not really going to websites much anymore? And which kind of websites are we going to? We’re just going to like docs, and like library landing pages, or the latest framework landing page? What kind of websites are actually useful to us? Is it shopping? Is it only shopping? Is it Amazon? Is it only Amazon? I think about my own traffic, and it’s weird traffic. I’m not going to a lot of websites anymore, and it’s strange.

Okay, this is actually a perfect segue into an experiment I tried, knowing that we were going to talk about this. I opened up ChatGPT Atlas. I have all of them on my machine right now. I’ve got Atlas, I’ve got Perplexity’s Comet, I’ve got Dia, that piece of crap…

“That piece of crap…”

I’ve got Chrome with Gemini built in, and Claude for Chrome, and the whole thing. But I opened up ChatGPT Atlas, and it just so happened that the last time I used that, I had opened up my fathom analytics page for my website. So when I opened it up, it brought me right back to that… Which was interesting, because I hadn’t looked at that in a while… And I noticed that one of the referrers was claude.ai, and it was specifically to a blog post I have, about “You should try Claude skills.” And I was like “Oh, cool. Did they link to me?” And I was trying to figure out how to get there and see if I could find a page where I’m linked, or something… And I couldn’t. So then I just popped open the sidebar in Atlas, and said “Hey, I see that they’re a referrer here. Find the page where this came from.” And it popped in and it’s like “Yeah, we’ll help you with shopping.” It was just so stupid. And it, of course, did not find anything. So I think it might’ve come up in a Claude answer, or something like that, but… It totally failed, and it jumped right into their failing as an actual AI provider. They’re just a way to sell you ads, is the way that I felt as soon as it said “ChatGPT shopping.”

Yeah.

But to your question there, like “Where is this all going?”, I think that this is might be like a canary in the coal mine of where this is heading, in that everything sucks. All the browsers suck right now. And when I think about other tools that are out there, like ChatGPT’s - whatever they call MCP. You know, MCP tools, and there’s an MCP UI project; it’s a tool that will render a UI for you, in your window.

[01:04:14.02] So you can have a chat, and the perfect example I have is you’re talking to ChatGPT and you tell it to find you an apartment in San Francisco, with two bedrooms, within walking distance of wherever, and under this budget. And it like loads like a Zillow page in there, a Zillow map, and you can move around the map right in your chat window. You didn’t go to zillow.com. It’s like loading that and helping you find it right in the chat there… And then you can have a contextual conversation around that. I feel like that’s where things could be going, and like the browser’s just not figuring out where they belong in. This is indicative of that being the future. Maybe the future really is just like a chat-like interface for everything.

Yeah. What a shame.

Yeah, right?

Well, so the example was this morning, as we were on a call with our friends at Practical AI, and one of the questions we wanted to find out was just like “What other AI-specific podcasts are out there?”, just to see where this show comes up on the map. And I guess, am I okay with this just being a list? I didn’t go to any of the sites, I didn’t go and check them out… And I’m not doing research either, so I don’t feel bad about it, but I got my glimpse of what the web is… And now this is just like some weird artifact of what the web is. I didn’t go to the websites, I didn’t go to the podcast clients… Now, down at the bottom it does say - oddly, this is ChatGPT - “Make a playlist. Connect Spotify.” Like, why? Because I had to search about a podcast they want to make a playlist about pods? No. That’s just – I don’t know. It seems reaching. Just do what you’re trying to do. I don’t know. I am worried about the web, though. Like, what is the web these days? I don’t know.

I will say, I a hundred percent go… I use Raycast AI as my Google now.

Oh, really?

I just pop that up and just go to town, asking it questions… I’ve been getting into Minecraft a lot with my son, so I’m asking about obscure Minecraft things… And it’s so great, just like in the middle of the game I just pop up and be like “Hey, how do I summon this thing?” or “How do I do…” whatever. And it tells me right there. I don’t have to go to Google… I never go to Google.

So you’re doing Command+Space and then tab to get there?

Option+Space.

Oh, you don’t go Command+Space?

Command+Space opens [unintelligible 01:06:32.17] Raycast. Option+Space opens its AI chat window.

Oh, I see. I got that set to something else then. My bad. So you go to the Raycast chat app, versus the one that just pops up as part of the - whatever you call that; the launcher, I suppose.

Mm-hm. I guess I could do it right there, because you type in whatever and hit Tab…

Yeah. Well, when you said like a Google, I was thinking like a simple search interface, and that’s the launcher, right? Which - you would get there by going Command+Space and then Tab, which gets you right into the ask prompt. Interesting… Yeah. You know, I kind of want AI everywhere I’m at, at like an arm’s length. I don’t want to be in a world, I suppose, as a technologist and a worker and a doer… I guess in my life when I’m hanging out with friends, phone’s over there; AI is not in the conversation. I’m not saying that. But like in areas where I’m trying to be effective, and productive, and thinking, and researching, and those kinds of scenarios, I do want an AI pretty close to me, because I don’t think of it like an Adam replacer; it’s more like an Adam multiplier. How can I think bigger? How can I see more of the picture first, so that I can apply my taste to the path I’m trying to go towards? …not so I can be told what to do. It’s all about what is out there? What do I like? Where do my tastes align? And I’m doing my Trump thing here… Gosh, I just realized I’m doing my Trump hands… Sometimes I do a Trump impersonation… Anyways – hands down. I am just doing my thing, and I’ve got to have the AI near me… And I’m finding my stuff, and I’m making decisions, and going my way, and just having it nearby.

[01:08:15.07] How about voice? Have either of you tapped into – I suppose you talked about how you talked to it on your car rise, but in the case – I think we’re all still iPhone users. Nick, are you an iPhone user still yet?

Absolutely. I’ve got a Vision Pro. Of course I am.

Well, I just never know. I mean, you’re trading sides so much, dabbling and everything… You may have gone to the dark side to Android, who knows… But let’s all assume the three people in this proverbial podcast room here use an iPhone. The one thing I think missing from my life is where I can say “Hey, you know what?”, and in my case it’s Siri… No, not right now. I want to talk to Siri about what can happen here, or something like it, more so to maybe automate things around my life. I feel like that’s the next human frontier that is just like simple. We should have that. It should be a thing. We should have that, right?

We should.

And it’s not here yet. And I’m wondering if there’s a dark side to this. Is there a reason why these voice assistants aren’t doing it yet? Maybe we’ll break the world. I don’t know. What do you think?

There’s a podcast, I don’t remember which one, but they were talking about this, and about how… You know, somebody left iOS and went to Android. Or went to - not Android; went to the very special Alexa. Sorry, that triggers… But you know, the one that you can pay a bunch and then it can – it’s basically an agentic Alexa. And it would do things, and it would say that it was doing things correctly, but then it wouldn’t actually do them all the time, a hundred percent of the time… And it’s because the disconnect between understanding the conversation and translating that into actual actions around your house is still like a gap that is not quite solved.

That’s where I think a home assistant might be that frontier, though. A home assistant now is – I was just doing some research on this, because I was just – from the Nerves conversation we had, Jerod, with Lars Wikman, coming out soon… It was really just around embedded Linux. Obviously, I’m a Linux nerd, and I’m just dabbling as much as I can, and just for curiosity around Linux… And I think it’s just cool, what you can do with embedded Linux, and what you can do with Nerves. And it came up to – I was like “Okay, how can I do…” I think it’s called Root Project… What is it called – Root Build. Root Build, so you can do your own embedded Linux kernel kind of thing. And I was like “Well, what could you do around Root Build and home assistant?” Because that’s where I have just natural curiosity. And now, home assistant has their own flavor called Home Assistant OS, which is one of the preferred ways… And they actually sell an appliance now. So they’re this open source project behemoth, really, to automating home things - everything’s integrated into it - and now they have their own appliance, which just has Home Assistant OS on it. I think the frontier is like “Can you get something to talk to that well?” And I haven’t dabbled, so somebody else is probably like “Adam, it already exists. Shut up. Let me come on your pod and I’ll tell you.” But that’s where I’m at, is like, this Home Assistant - is that the tie? Is that the connection for this next wave?

It could be. I think that the pieces are there. And there’s the rumors, I guess… I forgot – the Apple guy that always breaks rumors. But Gemini is going to power the next version of Siri. It’s just super-interesting. And I hope so, because Siri is so bad. But the underpinnings are –

I feel bad for her, man. I asked her the day, I was like “Are you sad, Siri?” She’s like “Why?” “Because they’ve just not taken care of you.” She’s like “I’m cool with it.”

[01:12:01.26] The head of AI just stepped down yesterday, I think… John Giannandrea.

Well, he saw Google come in with Gemini, he’s like “Well, I’m out.”

[unintelligible 01:12:10.05] There you go.

There was rumor that they were going to buy Anthropic, or like integrate with Anthropic. I think integrating would be great. Buying - oh, that’d be the worst.

Don’t buy it. Gosh.

Yeah, please don’t. [laughs]

Let it do its own thing, okay? No acquisitions for that company. Be the leader, be the innovator, drive it… Drive it, go.

But you know, what’s there today, if you really look for it, is actually pretty powerful, as I’m slowly learning. Like, there’s the ChatGPT underpinnings, where you can – you can have it relay your query that you give to Siri, to ChatGPT, and it can sometimes do it… I literally asked it to play a song in my car, and it somehow sent that to ChatGPT, and then ChatGPT just came back and said “I can’t play music.” It was so bad. But the underpinnings are there. And if you’ve ever – have you ever played with the Shortcuts app?

Yeah.

Just a little bit, yeah. Just enough to know it exists.

There is a ton of power in there right now, because specifically, they have a bubble that you can drag in, that is “Send this input to ChatGPT. Here’s a prompt. Get some output and do stuff with it.” And you can have triggers. And the triggers can be like when a mail message comes in. And so I just set one up to where whenever a mail message comes in from GitHub, and it has a PR number or an issue number in the subject, it takes that message, sends it to ChatGPT, summarizes it, gets the link out of it, and then it creates a new to do, makes sure that the to do doesn’t exist already, and sends it to OmniFocus to put it in my inbox, so that I only have one inbox to check for those things.

I’m questioning if you actually do any work for WorkOS at this point, okay…?

I was over here thinking “This guys is a really sophisticated code monkey.” I mean, look at him; he’s just taking PRs right out of the email, “It goes right into my to do list. Just send them to me, I’m going to put it right in my to do list…”

I send them to Claude Code for web, and Claude makes the PR. That’s the next step of it. It’s like, it won’t even like put it in my to do list. The to do will be “Review the PR that Claude just put up for this issue.” That could be something that you could do.

And then you said “Omni –” Was it OmniFocus? Is that right?

Yeah.

I thought that was a relic. Are they not – I know they’re there, but I didn’t think people still used it.

I have tried so hard to leave. I have. [laughter]

Share your jail cell. What does it look like?

It sounds like you’ve got Stockholm syndrome.

I do. It’s so bad…

“I tried to leave…!”

Every single to do app, they don’t have this one feature that OmniFocus just has, and has had forever… And that’s this concept of deferred dates. So I can put something in and put all of the – like flag it, and do whatever, but say “I don’t care about this until next Monday.” And then it will not show up in any of my automated lists until it’s ready, until next Monday. So I can just like set it and forget it, and be assured that it’s going to resurface onto my radar when I can actually work on it. Because I’m not going to work on it today. And I do that with every single task. I defer everything.

He’s not working on anything today… [laughs] It’s a really sophisticated way of avoiding work, is what you’re doing.

MG, are you checking what he’s doing, dude? Are you checking [unintelligible 01:15:19.01] Michael Greenwich, by the way… That’s kind of wild. So I kind of want to like just have a separate session, not on this podcast, where you just show me how you do your OmniFocus stuff. Just like a Nick deep-dive into – could you do like an anonymized version, so you can like show us your world, but like not obviously show us your world? Is that possible?

I can try, for sure.

Or can you just show us your world and you’re cool with it?

Yeah, okay… [laughs]

Sanitize your world first.

Yeah.

Show it to us.

It’s like 90% GitHub issue stuff, which is all public anyway, so… Yeah, I can probably do that.

I’m really curious about that, because I’ve been a Things user, I’ve been a Todoist user, and more so recently, a Todoist user only because I’m multi-platform now, not just Mac… And Things is Mac-only.

[01:16:13.23] Yeah.

And obviously, I love Mac, but I can’t – there’s things to do on wherever I’m at. And so –

Don’t blame them for your mistakes… [laughs]

I don’t know. So I guess in that case then too OmniFocus would not be on Linux, because OmniFocus is not Linux native… Are they? They’re not Linux native.

No, you can’t leave the garden. You have to be inside the walled garden in order to enjoy the garden. You can’t take the garden with you.

They have OmniFocus for web, but you can’t even like reliably scrape that, because everything is like super-encrypted…

Well, anyways, okay… See, that’s the thing too, is like, Mac traps you, I guess… I’m not even going to say this – like, I love this machine. I can’t even count the amount of tabs I have open… And then there’s a whole separate Safari behind that, that’s got the same amount of tabs. And then I’ve got – too much open. QuickTime’s still open from something that I was just doing before this… And this thing is not crashing. I can leave this thing on for 75 years and it’s just a machine. It’s the bomb. I love it. But Linux is cool, and there’s a lot of things you can do on Linux… So I don’t know, I’m in this really weird world where I like Mac, but I also love Linux.

Are you doing the Omarchy thing with Linux?

No.

Okay.

No, I think that’s dumb.

[laughs]

And if you’re using Omarchy, shame on you. And not for the reason you think. Just kidding. I don’t know, I’m just being silly. You do what you want out there, okay? I’m just joking around. You know, I think – I’d be surprised if Omarchy has this weird cult following. It just seems such a weird thing… Even using it, I’m like – I’m using DHH’s operating system, not an operating system for developers… Which - I guess you could say it’s a derivative of that… But it feels so much like [unintelligible 01:17:57.01] around with his stuff… I’m not necessarily negative about the guy, nor positive; I’m a centrist when it comes to him. I’m not for or against necessarily. And there’s a lot of people who feel it’s [unintelligible 01:18:07.04] but I’ll leave that aside. My choice to not use it is not because of a belief in him or not. I just feel like it’s super-opinionated and not my opinions, and I feel like I’m hanging out with somebody else’s toy box, and they’re not my toys. It’s not cool.

So that’s how I feel.

I haven’t looked into that specifically, but everything that I feel like everybody touts about that system, and the opinions that it makes - I just do it on my Mac, and it works. I use a tiling window manager, it’s amazing. I use NeoVim, obviously… It’s amazing. It’s a Markdown reader still for me, but it’s good at that.

How do you feel about Zed? Does Zed ever get a spot in your life as an editor?

There’s other editors… I’m a very important man. I can’t be wasting time.

It’s on his license plate. He can’t switch editors at this point. He’d have to go re-license his car, you know?

Well, you have to at least have an opinion about it…

Yeah, that it’s trash. [laughter]

Gosh, dang… I don’t think it’s trash at all, personally. I think it’s one of the best editors out there, in all honesty…

I have never looked at it. I’ve heard good things… I feel no reason to switch out of NeoVim. There is nothing I’m missing. With NeoVim, with a Claude Code instance and a Tmux split next to it, there is nothing. That’s the exact thing I want.

He’s also carrying around a large quantity of sunk cost fallacy, because Nick has spent hours and hours…

How dare you…?!

…or days getting his NeoVim set up… And he can’t just waste that time. That time was well spent, unless he switches off of Vim, in which case it was a complete waste.

I learned Lua…!

[01:19:44.21] [laughs] There you have it. That’s the smoking gun right there. This guy uses one indexed array languages, just for Vim. Hilarious… I’m just not feeling any of the wanderlust that you’re having, Adam… Or even the browser situation, or the web – I’m over here, looking at my web history as you guys talk, and I’m just like… I go to tons of websites, I don’t use very many apps… If you look at my history, I’m just like – everything’s pretty much the same as it was five years ago, except for less Google searches. I am going to turn to an AI-first. I still end up on DuckDuckGo a lot, just looking for a web page, or something, if I can just find it faster than they can… But I’m not feeling like the web is very much different. But then I’m like “Well, maybe I’m a dinosaur.” So that’s where I’m sitting right now.

Well, I’m with you on that. I mean, I just said how many tabs I have open… And they’re not the same website.

But before you were lamenting how we don’t go to websites anymore. I’m like, I’ve been to hundreds of websites this week, and it’s only Tuesday.

Well, I was lamenting in that scenario where you’re finding research, and I didn’t follow through from the research to go to those places… But yeah, in the meantime I’ve got - Fedora Linux 43 is here up, as a tab, I’ve got Home Assistant OS here… Or Home Assistant OS is – yeah, I guess there’s a tab open there. CapCut… GitHub, obviously…

Website?

Yeah. I’ve got – oh, gosh, I’ve got to do this; a parkour registration. My son is in parkour. I’ve got to complete that mission.

Parkour!

OmniFocus is now here in my tab.

Is it Hardcore Parkour?

It’s actually a – no. I don’t know what you mean by that.

[laughs]

Hardcore Parkour…

That’s off The Office. That’s a clip from The Office.

Oh, sorry. Oh, I see. Yes. I didn’t track your pickup.

12 of my 14 tabs are GitHub, and then I have one Codeberg tab, and I have one with the button blog post that I didn’t read.

See? We all browse differently. I still go to a lot of websites… It’s just I worry about the web if we’re trying to like AI it in the browser, and every website is just a summary of itself… Like, what does that do? How does that change the web? That’s what my real concern is; not that I don’t go to enough websites anymore. I still go to tons. But how does this shift change what the web will be? That’s my, I suppose, curiosity.

Yeah. Everyone has to start thinking – like, nobody goes to Google, right? Do we know that these LLMs are indexing in the same way that a search engine would? So a search engine optimization, the best thing, especially if you have like a product that you want to sell and you want people to notice it - if AI is not recommending you, you’re doomed. Like, how do you get around that? How do you start a new project? Like, Tanner Linsley can start TanStack Start, and he’s got enough clout that he can bypass that… But if I was going to start, I don’t know, Very Important Man…

Dot com?

[laughs]

Teacher business…

Yeah. Like, how would I do that? How do you know?

Well, you launch it on the Changelog podcast, like you are right now… [laughter] Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, would you start – this is the Nilay Patel question that he asks all the time on Decoder and other of his shows, which is like “Do you start a website today?” Like, if you’re starting a new business, do you even start a website? Or do you start with a TikTok? Or do you start with a Codeberg account? What do you do? And I don’t know the answer to that. I guess it depends on what kind of website you want to start – what kind of business do you want to start? It seems like, when it comes to e-commerce, the web still has a foothold, mostly through Shopify, and then also through Amazon.

But see, it would take – like, Shopify is in a perfect position, because they’re like effectively thousands of little stores, right?

Right.

One MCPUI-like tool and now you can shop any Shopify site, from any LLM that you’re talking to, and have like a rendered thing where you’re picking out your favorite shirt from there, and ordering it, all straight through this UI that is dynamically rendered at the time that you asked for it, and didn’t exist before that.

[01:23:49.08] That’s interesting as a thought experiment… Yeah, a lot of things happen just in time now, that you didn’t have to before… And I’m actually like “Throw that code away. Yeah, I don’t care.” You can generate it again. Who cares? …kind of thing. The things that were once coveted are kind of ephemeral, in a way.

Yeah.

And that’s a weird feeling, because it wasn’t that way before. It’s like “Oh, okay. I’ll just try it again.” New thought, new research, new thing, same output, similar venture… Now, if you’re knee-deep in a whole full-on product you built, or something like that, it’s different. But if it’s like one sliver of something - yeah, okay… Not the worst thing ever to have lost that, or to throw it away. Or to spike it and try again.

What if, for some reason, some LLM – like, Perplexity for some reason favored this one blog post that said “Changelog sucks”, and that’s what it repeats to people?

Don’t do that…

Yeah. That’d be terrible.

Then we’ll sue them for libel. [laughter]

But finish your thought, though… What was your thought? Was that it?

Just, I don’t know where to go from there, but… It’s what you’re thinking about now, right? How do you counteract that? It’s like just a mystery right now how to do all of this… And I feel like we’re just clinging to the vestiges of SEO as like the cornerstone of that building.

But even that was a mystery, that Google would come out once every six months and say “We’re changing the algorithm”, and then all of the SEO gurus would go into their little labs and they would test things, and they’d come out and they’d sell you something that said “Put this in your website and you’ll be rich.”

Yeah.

I don’t know if that necessarily changes materially from what has been. It’s just a different area. Different poops, same pile? No. Different pile, same poop… What’s that saying?

I don’t know… Same smell, different poo.

I think the saying technically is “Same *bleep*, different day”, but I misapplied it. [laughs] I misapplied it.

That stuff changes our behavior. And that’s something interesting to look into…

Sure.

Like, one thing that is freaking terrible is this whole trend of “I’m going to mention something, but I’m not going to link to it”, and then I’ll have like a follow on, or a comment… The first comment is the link to it. It’s the worst. And if you do that –

But if you’re going to play the game, are you going to play the game or not?

I know, that’s the problem. I’ve done it before…

So have I. It changes the way you live your life.

But then every time I see it, I’m like – I hate the person that did that, because they’re playing the game that I’ve also played.

I have an answer for us, Nick. I have an answer. It’s called Meshtastic. Here’s what we do. We set up a mesh network between your house and my house, and we just connect our lands together, and we just – we internet between the two houses, and maybe anybody else in the region that wants to join… And we start our own little splinter net, where we make the rules.

I like this.

Do you like this?

This can’t go wrong at all.

You can put your link right there in the – yeah. [laughs] This never goes wrong. We move out to a mountain somewhere and we start our own little commune. Like, that’s basically where you end up, right? Unless you’re just going to embrace, extend and enjoy…

That’s right.

This is where we started.

Is there any prediction you may have, Nick? You’re just so full of exploration, and some discovery, I suppose… You have opinions. Do you have any predictions? …for obviously this next year; we’re at the end of the year.

Yeah… I think that the code that we’re writing is – if you’re still writing a lot of code, you’re going to write less next year. I think that that’s a given at this point.

Are you gonna produce more?

You’re going to produce more, but you’re going to write less. You’re going to be involved less in the day to day minutia of the code. There’s ways around that, to be as productive, I think. One thing – I don’t know, you asked for a prediction. I guess that’s my prediction. Can I give you a recommendation of something to try?

You can do what you want.

[01:28:03.16] Alright. So I’m talking about Claude Code, because that’s the one that I use the most. But you could probably do this with the other ones. But Claude has this thing called output styles, that they deprecated. And then they got pushback on that, and so they undeprecated it. So it’s still here, at least for right now. But it’s a way to change the system prompt a little bit, so that you can tell it exactly how you want it to respond to you… And it ships with two examples. One of them is explanatory, where it’ll give you little insight bubbles about why it’s making a decision that it made, or whatever… And the other one is learning. And that learning one is specifically for “I want to go learn the Go programming language.” And so when you have that enabled, it’s going to optimize for you to fill out some of the more – like “Oh, it’d be good for you to learn how to do loops in Go. So I’m going to stub out this method, and you’re going to fill it in.” And it’ll give you prompts and tell you how to do it in code comments. And then it’ll pause there and have you do it, but you can ask questions before moving on. You can tweak that – you can make as many output styles as you want. But you can tweak that, and you can tweak it to be more of like a business logic-y one. I forgot what I exactly call mine… It’s like – yeah, I can’t remember what I call it. But you can tell it to basically fill out the minutiae of the code. Like, “Stub out this method. Add the getters, and setters”, and all that stuff that is boring. “Just get the work done” work. Have it do that. But then the core business logic stuff - “Pause and let me do that. And we’ll talk about it, and walk through it together… And you can even do most of it, maybe.” But that way you’re more involved in what the code is actually doing. You’re stopping to take part and participate… Because otherwise the code is just scrolling by you. And then already, in the past, six months go by, and I have no idea what code I wrote six months ago that I have to go debug. It’s like that week-to-week now with all of this code. So if you’re not keeping yourself involved in it, then you don’t really have a solid footing, mentally, on what code is passing by you, and that your name is being attached to. Because it’s still your name on the commit. So use that to be involved, and that’s a good way to have the AI optimize for you doing the fun parts, and it doing the minutiae.

So the way you get there is how? You do output style?

Yup.

And it’s called Researcher?

No. Let me – I forgot what it was called.

Oh, that’s right. You forgot what it’s called. Is it in your plugins? Marketplace?

It’s in my dotfiles. Because the marketplace doesn’t allow for output styles.

Okay… Put that in your readme, or something like that. Same place, but outside the loop.

Yeah. Mine’s just called Important Stuff.

[laughs] Gosh, Nick… Oh, man. Well, that’s cool. That is cool. Yeah, that’s true, because you’re producing more code than you probably ever have before, it’s [unintelligible 01:31:11.13] by you. It’s like “Yeah, that checks out, that checks out”, but do you really code review every single line? Or you know for sure it represents your beliefs? …or I guess your coding beliefs…

I personally try to… And that’s because all of the code I write professionally is on open source, on GitHub. And so I don’t want my company or me to have this reputation that I’m just like slopping out this code. I want it to have my seal of approval on everything… And so I try and stay on top of every line of it, and understand that I’m on the commit message. I’m the one blamed in the [unintelligible 01:31:47.10]

[01:31:52.13] Yeah. Let’s push Pause right there then, because I want to do a special Plus Plus anchoring off that. And so if you’re listening now and you’re not a Plus Plus subscriber - well, the reason why you do is because you get this little bonus from Nick. Hopefully it’s good and it’s worth your money, but… Changelog.com/++. It is better. 10 bucks a month, 100 bucks a year… Go behind the scenes with us. Dig in. And there you go. So anything else? Any other predictions that you want to share, Nick, or anything else that you want to tease before we end this Friends?

We’re not going to achieve AGI next year.

Next year… [laughter] I will have you know that I –

Who’s this “we” you’re talking about?

Humanity.

Humanity, okay.

See, I’m not participating in any way…

Oh, man…

[laughs]

So - a little mention here at the end… Terminator 1 and 2 was on sale for Black Friday. 4K Blu-rays. You know I have Plex, I love it. Theater, all that good stuff. And I’m so excited, because I haven’t had a chance to rip it yet, but I’m going to rewatch for the first time in probably 20 years Terminator 1 and 2… Which in my opinion are the best Terminator movies there are, of the Terminator saga.

Oh, for sure.

It’s like, yeah, of course, right?

You’re not including 3?!

3 was probably pretty good… I just forget it. I don’t even know, honestly. It probably was – was it Judgment Day?

That was 2.

That was 2, right?

No, Judgment Day is 2, yeah.

Yeah.

Rise of the Machines, or…? What’s 3 called? It was trash. Terminator 3. Trash Day. I don’t know. [laughter]

The Trash Rises Again…

Yeah, exactly. But 2 is amazing, and 1’s also very good.

That’s part of my –

[laughs] That’s a classic, Nick. Did you do that on Sora? Was that Sora? Or are you actually doing that?

That’ll be the next one, yeah.

We have to clip that, first of all. And secondly, I have to tell our listener who’s not watching that Nick just slow melted into the - liquid hot magma, was it? With a thumbs up, just like Arnold did in Terminator 2. Was it 2 or 1? I don’t know.

It was 2. It was 2.

2. That’s right. He did melt. He melted in 2. So my plan in December is to re-watch those movies, but in 4K, in HDR, with a fantastic sound system… Very large, comparative to how I watched it originally. It was probably on like a 19-inch RCA analog TV, or something like that. I’m just guessing. Or maybe one of those TVs you had as furniture in your living room. One of those. I might have watched it on that as a VCR, probably from a VHS tape.

Oh, my goodness.

So there you go, I’m dating myself… But Blu-ray for the win. 4K Blu-ray. That’s the holiday plan.

Well, let us know if you still like it.

Yeah, I will. I will.

Alright. Nick, thanks for bringing us all your… Whatever this has been, the last 90 minutes. It’s been awesome.

Thank you. It was a lot of fun.

It always is.

Bye, Nick. Bye, friends.

Bye, friends.

Outro: [01:34:53.12]

Give me the details. Give me the specifics. You’re in Claude Code, and you’re working on something for WorkOS, and you’re really writing a feature… What is your flow? How do you truly pay attention to the code? Give me the very, very detailed visual. Exactly what’s happening. Paint it as best you can.

Okay. So I will say I do a lot of experimenting… So I’ve been playing around with Steve Yegge’s thing… Is it Beads, I think?

Yes.

Yeah, looking at that. I’ve been looking at GitHub’s thing… Spec-ify. And I just do my – I rolled my own as well. And the problem with rolling your own is you have to maintain it. And as things/models get better - are you still using the best practices? Like, I just don’t want to chase that constantly. So that’s why I’m experimenting with other ones, because then they can go chase it, and I can just reap the benefits. But I have been playing around with that.

Also, Opus 4.5. I don’t know if this is an Opus thing specifically, but their planning mode is different now, and it’s a lot better. It asks you questions… It asks you questions in like an interface… It saves that off in your HomeDirectory.claude/plans… And then it gives it a random name for the plan, but it’s there as a markdown file… And I noticed that. And it was asking me to do all of these things. It was saying like “Run /plan.” It kept telling me that yesterday, “Run /plan.” /plan does not exist, so it’s like giving me a preview, I think, of what’s to come. But I play around with all of those.

So a feature comes in… If it’s like a GitHub issue, I have a command that I run to have it read the issue, and it’s usually like “Let’s look at – like, is this a legitimate thing?” And so if it is, it’ll run through that and be like “Oh yeah, I see that it’s on this line of code, where I think the problem is.” And that’s how I do a lot of reactive stuff, is like that… But I don’t just trust it and say “Oh yeah, that’s it.” I have like example apps, that are just like vanilla – they have WorkOS AuthKit set up in them, or whatever… And I just have them – I’m like “Okay, let’s create a test page in that app.” And you can do like /add dir, and have it work in multiple directories at the same time…