logilogi-list Mailing List for LogiLogi - Software Libre for the Web (Page 47)

is there any online demo?

Could anybody post the source of the front page of a working LogiLogiManta?
This way I could start working on it.

thanks.

-- 
Bruno

Wybo, I've gone through the problems that emerged.

I added the -pPASS to the mysql command and worked fine.

I've used shellscripts that ask for mysql password this way:
mysql -u root -p -e "select *"

this error apears now when entering "domain.com:3000/public/":

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Showing app/views/logi/_url_bars.rhtml where line #18 raised:

You have a nil object when you didn't expect it!
The error occured while evaluating nil.only_word?

Extracted source (around line #18):

15:   </div>
16:   <div id="received_line"></div>
17:   <div id="requests_and_prefs_bar">
18:     <center>prefs-profile-drop-down-select | <%=
languages_select_flags %> | Search [searchbox]</center>
19:   </div>
20: <% else %>
21:   <div id="requests_and_prefs_bar">

RAILS_ROOT: script/../config/..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Bruno


On 11/8/06, Bruno Sarlo <bs...@gm...> wrote:
> Ok, thanks for the Ruby tips.
>
> When executing "rake do_dev_db" I got this errors:
>
> # rake do_dev_db --trace
> (in /var/www/virtual/overbits.com/logilogimanta)
> ** Invoke do_dev_db (first_time)
> ** Execute do_dev_db
> echo 'create database logilogi_development;' | mysql -u root
> ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'root'@'localhost' (using
> password: NO)
> rake aborted!
> Command failed with status (1): [echo 'create database logilogi_development...]
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:722:in `sh'
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:721:in `call'
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:729:in `sh'
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:812:in `sh'
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:807:in `sh'
> ./lib/tasks/do_dev_db.rake:2
> ./lib/tasks/do_dev_db.rake:1:in `call'
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:387:in `execute'
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:387:in `each'
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:387:in `execute'
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:357:in `invoke'
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:350:in `synchronize'
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:350:in `invoke'
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:1906:in `run'
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:1906:in `each'
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:1906:in `run'
> /usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/bin/rake:7
> /usr/bin/rake:18:in `load'
> /usr/bin/rake:18
>
> On 11/8/06, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> > > I don't want to distract you or fill the mailing list with smal
> > > tecnical questions. If you think so, please forward this to the
> > > mailing and we'll continue over there the conversation.
> >
> > I will because this is an important thing I forgot to mention in the
> > docs. I am very sorry and I hereby repent.
> >
> > > to be completed to work (I guess)... Could an admin default user be in
> > > the default DB schema?
> > >
> > > This is the error anyway:
> > >
> > > Couldn't find User with ID=1
> >
> > A few database related rake commands need to be run too, like rake
> > db:migrate and rake db:migrate:engines. A rake task is included
> > with Manta do do all of these in one go, it's called do_dev_db. So:
> >
> > rake do_dev_db
> >
> > does the trick (redo_dev_db, after one is in place and you need a
> > newer version).
> >
> > I updated the documentation and committed the change.
> >
> > Wybo
> >
> > PS: I added your user-name from the previous e-mail, you have full
> > developer access now.
> >
>
>
> --
> Bruno
>


-- 
Bruno

Ok, thanks for the Ruby tips.

When executing "rake do_dev_db" I got this errors:

# rake do_dev_db --trace
(in /var/www/virtual/overbits.com/logilogimanta)
** Invoke do_dev_db (first_time)
** Execute do_dev_db
echo 'create database logilogi_development;' | mysql -u root
ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'root'@'localhost' (using
password: NO)
rake aborted!
Command failed with status (1): [echo 'create database logilogi_development...]
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:722:in `sh'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:721:in `call'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:729:in `sh'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:812:in `sh'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:807:in `sh'
./lib/tasks/do_dev_db.rake:2
./lib/tasks/do_dev_db.rake:1:in `call'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:387:in `execute'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:387:in `each'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:387:in `execute'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:357:in `invoke'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:350:in `synchronize'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:350:in `invoke'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:1906:in `run'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:1906:in `each'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/lib/rake.rb:1906:in `run'
/usr/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/rake-0.7.1/bin/rake:7
/usr/bin/rake:18:in `load'
/usr/bin/rake:18

On 11/8/06, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> > I don't want to distract you or fill the mailing list with smal
> > tecnical questions. If you think so, please forward this to the
> > mailing and we'll continue over there the conversation.
>
> I will because this is an important thing I forgot to mention in the
> docs. I am very sorry and I hereby repent.
>
> > to be completed to work (I guess)... Could an admin default user be in
> > the default DB schema?
> >
> > This is the error anyway:
> >
> > Couldn't find User with ID=1
>
> A few database related rake commands need to be run too, like rake
> db:migrate and rake db:migrate:engines. A rake task is included
> with Manta do do all of these in one go, it's called do_dev_db. So:
>
> rake do_dev_db
>
> does the trick (redo_dev_db, after one is in place and you need a
> newer version).
>
> I updated the documentation and committed the change.
>
> Wybo
>
> PS: I added your user-name from the previous e-mail, you have full
> developer access now.
>


-- 
Bruno

> I don't want to distract you or fill the mailing list with smal
> tecnical questions. If you think so, please forward this to the
> mailing and we'll continue over there the conversation.

I will because this is an important thing I forgot to mention in the
docs. I am very sorry and I hereby repent.

> to be completed to work (I guess)... Could an admin default user be in
> the default DB schema?
> 
> This is the error anyway:
> 
> Couldn't find User with ID=1

A few database related rake commands need to be run too, like rake 
db:migrate and rake db:migrate:engines. A rake task is included 
with Manta do do all of these in one go, it's called do_dev_db. So:

rake do_dev_db 

does the trick (redo_dev_db, after one is in place and you need a 
newer version).

I updated the documentation and committed the change.

Wybo

PS: I added your user-name from the previous e-mail, you have full
developer access now.

Tasks item #1592712, was opened at 2006-11-08 16:34
Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter
You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=898717&aid=1592712&group_id=78643

Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread,
including the initial issue submission, for this request,
not just the latest update.
Category: None
Group: None
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 2
Private: No
Submitted By: Wybo Wiersma (wybow)
Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Summary: Extract PositionRange and PositionRangeList into a gem

Initial Comment:
Extracting the two classes inside app/models/range and
their tests into a separate gem.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=898717&aid=1592712&group_id=78643

Tasks item #1592699, was opened at 2006-11-08 16:18
Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter
You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=898717&aid=1592699&group_id=78643

Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread,
including the initial issue submission, for this request,
not just the latest update.
Category: None
Group: None
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 5
Private: No
Submitted By: Wybo Wiersma (wybow)
Assigned to: Wybo Wiersma (wybow)
Summary: Adding & testing the assignment of new LogiVersions

Initial Comment:
Making sure diffing can be done between the old and the
new linkless_textile, to the extent of being able to
handle movement of paragraphs.

Making sure the adding and removing of links from the
textile works fine.

And adding & testing the creation of a new LogiVersion.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=898717&aid=1592699&group_id=78643

Tasks item #1592694, was opened at 2006-11-08 16:14
Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter
You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=898717&aid=1592694&group_id=78643

Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread,
including the initial issue submission, for this request,
not just the latest update.
Category: None
Group: None
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 5
Private: No
Submitted By: Wybo Wiersma (wybow)
Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Summary: Adding a javascript div dropdown menu

Initial Comment:
Adding a javascript div dropdown for when one clicks
the second part of a word (showing a list of the links
that are behind it, with their matching logis and
scores), is still something that is not in there yet.

Reserved for Bruno

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=898717&aid=1592694&group_id=78643

Tasks item #1592687, was opened at 2006-11-08 16:09
Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter
You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=898717&aid=1592687&group_id=78643

Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread,
including the initial issue submission, for this request,
not just the latest update.
Category: None
Group: None
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 6
Private: No
Submitted By: Wybo Wiersma (wybow)
Assigned to: Saurabh (saurabh_goa)
Summary: Adding a filter to RedCloth

Initial Comment:
A thing that really needs to be done is adding a rule
to RedCloth for parsing
LogiLogi":do:logi/view/botanics/bush; into link_to's
within LogiLogi and modifying Redcloth's LINK_RE so
semicolons can be used to separate links within one word.

If this is done the links in the UI of LogiLogi will
show up as links instead of as the gibberishly looking
input for the not yet existing rule it is now.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=898717&aid=1592687&group_id=78643

Tasks item #1592677, was opened at 2006-11-08 15:57
Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter
You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=898717&aid=1592677&group_id=78643

Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread,
including the initial issue submission, for this request,
not just the latest update.
Category: None
Group: None
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 5
Private: No
Submitted By: Wybo Wiersma (wybow)
Assigned to: jenniferweng (jenniferweng)
Summary: Make links sortable

Initial Comment:
Completing and improving the code for sorting links. A
stub already exists for it that was created a few weeks
ago in link and link-part (the <=> operators), but the
concept class has no comparison operator yet, and the
sorting has not yet been tested.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=898717&aid=1592677&group_id=78643

> I am a ruby developer in making 
> working on some projects here
> knows ruby and c++ to intermediate level
> 
> i will like to help ur project in any way

You are welcome to join.

Just start off with tasks that are suitable for your level of experience / 
ambition.

I've also sent this message to the mailinglist so you have a first 
introduction already. You are also welcome to join it at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list

As the the team of developers is growing quicker than expected, a more
transparant way of handling tasks is required. So tasks are as of now 
handled through the Tasks Tracker on Sourceforge:
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=78643&atid=898717

As tasks are added to the tracker, a mail about them is automatically
also sent to this list, so there is still only one place to keep an
eye on if you want to be sure that the thing you'd like to do is not
already defined as a task or being done by someone else.

The only thing necessary to let this all function well is that as you 
start working on something (either an already existing task that is
not assigned yet, or something else you decide to create) you first 
check and update the tracker by (adding it and) assigning it to 
yourself.

I will be adding the tasks so far suggested for Jennifer, Bruno and
Saurabh (and the things I'm working on myself) to the tracker in the
coming minutes. Feel free however to pick up other tasks, or to swap 
tasks (if the other agrees).

greetings,

Wybo

> conatct me at mba...@gm...
> if u feel that i am interested in ur project 

-- 

::Student:
- History, Informatiekunde (computer linguistics, IR, webtech) and Philosophy
- Member of the Center for Metahistory Groningen (http://www.rug.nl/let/cmg)

::Free Software and Open Source Developer:
- http://www.LogiLogi.org, innovative system for cumulative, shared commenting,
                           publication and idea sharing: Web as it should be...
- ComLinToo, a computational linguistics toolset written in Perl
- Lake (LogiLogi.org Make), a make-replacement using makefiles in pure C++

::Being:
- In the world, go figure (http://nl.logilogi.org/HomE/WyboWiersma)

> This is the last project I've been working on, is not finished yet.
> 2flowers.com The project desing, UI and some other things are made by
> me, and the programing including all Javascript, PHP and so AJAX is
> made by my team partner Miguel (I'll tell him to join the list and
> introduce himself).

Will be great to welcome him here too!

> I'll download later today the files from the SVN at SF.net and take a
> look. Ruby should be no problem to understand, but I'll appreciate any
> guidance.

~ Ruby ~

Ruby is not difficult to read, for reading it, the main thing to get 
used to, are all the somearray.each do |element| end constructions. 
A good concise crash-course in ruby is:
http://ruby.brian-schroeder.de/course/slides.pdf

~ Getting Manta up and running ~

If you are on Linux it's a matter of installing ruby gems, and with gem: 
rails, and tzinfo, rubyzip, RedCloth and diff/lcs.

You'll also need mysql running. If you're on Debian or Ubuntu, besides 
ruby you'll need libzlib-ruby, libyaml-ruby and rdoc before downloading
and installing the ruby gems program.

gem install rails --include-dependencies

Installs Rails.

~ UI ~

The UI is still more of an outline than anything near a finished user 
experience...

Also much of the UI has to be still filled in. Like a javascript
div dropdown for when one clicks the second part of a word (showing a
list of the links that are behind it, with their matching logis and
scores), is still something that is not in there yet.

Of course for that first the RedCloth rule to parse these links from
the textile is needed (something I hope Saurabh likes to create with
us).

You might also have a look at this plan from a previous post (the
archive lags behind quite a bit) for splitting up LogiLogi in 
separate webservices and using javascript to re-combine them (but it
does not seem to me that this is feasable for Manta already):

---

It comes down to splitting LogiLogi up into 2 parts (for a start). The
first part will, based on the url of tags the user visited, return a
list of possible document_id's, the javascript will then call the
second part for ratings given to the document_id's, and then sort them
by rating, and call the first part again for the full document
belonging to the best id, which will then be set in the body-div.

In this way the rating-server can be different from the url/document-
server, and the user can choose which rating-server to use.

Of course there are posibillities for implementing this server-
side, but the beauty of the javascript solution is that it really
separates them.

---

Let us know when you have Manta up and running (and if you encounter
any problems you can of course also let us know ;-)

Wybo

> Thanks again for the news!

Hy Wybo,

Is nice to have news.

I'd really like to help the project with the UI.

This is the last project I've been working on, is not finished yet.
2flowers.com The project desing, UI and some other things are made by
me, and the programing including all Javascript, PHP and so AJAX is
made by my team partner Miguel (I'll tell him to join the list and
introduce himself).

I'll download later today the files from the SVN at SF.net and take a
look. Ruby should be no problem to understand, but I'll appreciate any
guidance.

Thanks again for the news!

On 11/7/06, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> Bruno and others,
>
> The user-interface of LogiLogi manta is beginning to take shape. It's
> not HTML-validation-time yet, as it will probably still evolve quite
> a bit (the language-flags will move to a top-bar for example), but you
> can already have a look.
>
> Wybo
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> LogiLogi-list mailing list
> Log...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list
>


-- 
Bruno

> Wybo,
> 
> I do like the way you are thinking.  Citizendium probably sees you as 
> competition.  I think that Wikipedia, and probably also Citizendium, are 
> both going to end up as glorified encyclopedias.

Indeed. With which nothing is wrong in principle, but there are other
interesting things to be done, like what LogiLogi Manta aims for, and
what you write about (although there are differences in our views too).

> If you get an opportunity, I'd like to learn more about your vision.  I'm 
> in a futuring/social transformation network and I'd like to find a tool 
> that can support group interaction in a novel, and knowledge 
> creation-based, way. I'm expecting this to grow into a global network of 
>  many organizations and would like the wiki to be at the center of the 
> effort.

You can start by exploring LogiLogi Manta through:

http://en.logilogi.org/MetaLogi/TheMantaExperiment
http://en.logilogi.org/MetaLogi/LogiLogiManta

And you can also join the mailinglist if you want:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list

(I also forwarded this reply to the mailinglist)

> The overall intent of this network will be to give society the ability to 
> transform itself and deal with exponential growth in change and volatility.

Did you read Collective Intelligence by Pierre Levy ? Although almost
a decade old, it writes about just that. And even for it's differences
it will be an inspiring read anyway.

> That said, I have only moderate technical capacity, so it has to be kind of 
> simple to set up, or I'll need help.

LogiLogi Manta will be running on LogiLogi.org, and easy to setup on 
other servers too...

> I'm not sure what I'm even proposing here, but I'd like to entertain 
> discussion on some kind of collaboration and am interested in your 
> thoughts. I think you understand what a wiki needs to be and we may be 
>  able to help each other in some way.  What do you think?

I think we might find quite some common ground. What should be clear
however is that LogiLogi Manta is a project with quite a concrete
design, and thus a project with clear limitations too.

Our current aim is to get up a working first version in two more 
months with peer-groups, linking, rating, and editing-capabilities.

For later versions though, things are mucht more open.

Wybo

> Kind Regards,
> 
> Bruce LaDuke
> Managing Director
> 
> Instant Innovation, LLC
> Indianapolis, IN
> kno...@ho...
> http://www.hyperadvance.com

> hi,
> ich hoffe, sie k=F6nnen ein bisschen deutsch

Yes I do read German reasonably well (my father is a German-teacher). Alt=
hough=20
my writing is better in English...

> haben sie mein Projekt www.ency.de schon gesehen.
>=20
> Konzept von Ency (eine globale interaktive Encyclopedia): Ency wird
> ein grosses offenes Archiv aller bekannten S=E4tze. Die S=E4tze werden
> automatisch mit Crawlern aus den Internet-inhalten gefischt. Die
> S=E4tze werden durch Software geparst, strukturiert und =FCbersetzt,
> sind daher auch international abrufbar. Die User bewerten die S=E4tze
> und verlinken sie, es kommen als erstes die 3 besten S=E4tze ins
> Ergebnisfeld. =DCber die normierten S=E4tze kann auch ein
> internationaler Diskurs gef=FChrt werden. der User kann aber auch
> eigene S=E4tze einbringen oder alte S=E4tze verbessern an einem
> Editorplatz. der User hat auch einen eigenen Speicher f=FCr seine
> akzeptierten S=E4tze. das System ist an allen neuen S=E4tze
> interessiert, schreiben sie ihren neuen Satz. neue S=E4tze
> schreiben oder (Satz =E4ndern)=20
> auch f=FCr Handys geeignet=20

It looks nice, however I do not bilieve in logic out of context, nor
in sentence-level reasoning. Sentences are simply too short to convey
a meaningfull idea at any interesting level, and surely too short to
be rated by themselves (a sentence that makes sense in one context can
be out of place in another, so as users link sentences the rating is
not very usefull for browsing them).

So LogiLogi is playing a different ballgame, and will continue to...,=20
I wish you, and ency.de good luck.

I also forwarded this message to the logilogi-mailing-list, as things
are also defined by what they are not.

Wybo

> es gibt auch eine englische Seite=A0=20
>=20
> http://www.ency.de/logiceng.php
>=20
> brauchen sie noch mehr infos?
>=20
> mfg=20
> rainer

--=20

::Student:
- History, Informatiekunde (computer linguistics, IR, webtech) and Philos=
ophy
- Member of the Center for Metahistory Groningen (http://www.rug.nl/let/c=
mg)

::Free Software and Open Source Developer:
- http://www.LogiLogi.org, innovative system for cumulative, shared comme=
nting,
                           publication and idea sharing: Web as it should=
 be...
- ComLinToo, a computational linguistics toolset written in Perl
- Lake (LogiLogi.org Make), a make-replacement using makefiles in pure C+=
+

::Being:
- In the world, go figure (http://nl.logilogi.org/HomE/WyboWiersma)

> Hi,
>    
> > 
> > Are you a student, and if so do you study anything humanities-related ?
> Oh, No, I'm not. In fact I'm a teacher of computer science. :) 

At a highschool or an uni ? And in what courses ? Is Ruby on Rails 
being picked up in China ?

> > I would say, create a sourceforge account, join the LogiLogi mailinglist
> > (https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list), and checkout 
> > LogiLogi Manta, and have a look at the interface as it is now.
> 
> Yeah, I do have a sourceforge account ,jenniferweng is my logging name of sourceforge.
> And I've joined the LogiLogi mailinglist.

I've added you to the project.

> I think I need some time to read the source code you've made. :)

There's quite a bit of it, but it's all neat, documented code, and 
structured similarily. Still, might you find something that can be 
improved, you're welcome to change it.

> Glad to join this project! ^_^

And we're glad to be developing alongside with you.

Are you on a linux-machine ? If so setting up your development-
environment for Manta should be no problem, but mind the dependencies
in the docs/README_FOR_APP though.

I'm working on the diff-ing of the textile (text) of edited/changed 
Logi's in order to be able to edit and save them as new LogiVersions 
this week.

Wybo

> jennifer

Saurabh,

You are welcome. 

We would be interested in seeing some of your previous work.

A thing you can do right away to roll your ruby-muscles is adding a
rule to RedCloth for parsing "LogiLogi":do:logi/view/botanics/bush; 
into link_to's within LogiLogi and modifying Redcloth's LINK_RE so 
semicolons can be used to separate links within one word.

If this is done the links in the UI of LogiLogi will show up as links
instead of as the gibberishly looking input for the not yet existing 
rule it is now.

Also feel welcome to join the mailinglist:
(https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list)

I just added you as a developer, and I forwarded this e-mail to the
mailinglist so you have a first introduction already.

Wybo

> Hello,
> 
> I am Saurabh Bhide, and I would like to work with uall 
> people as a web developer.
> 
> I am good at :
> Ruby on Rails
> PHP, MySQL 
> Web Graphics
> 
> So contact me. I would love to contribute to your open 
> source project.

-- 

::Student:
- History, Informatiekunde (computer linguistics, IR, webtech) and Philosophy
- Member of the Center for Metahistory Groningen (http://www.rug.nl/let/cmg)

::Free Software and Open Source Developer:
- http://www.LogiLogi.org, innovative system for cumulative, shared commenting,
                           publication and idea sharing: Web as it should be...
- ComLinToo, a computational linguistics toolset written in Perl
- Lake (LogiLogi.org Make), a make-replacement using makefiles in pure C++

::Being:
- In the world, go figure (http://nl.logilogi.org/HomE/WyboWiersma)

> Hi,
> 
>    I'm jennifer weng from China. I read the message you left on SourceForge. I'm really interesting in LogiLogi.
>    I've been studying ruby and rails for one year or so and I even tried to finish one little web based application about devices management with rails.
>    I hope I can join you. ^_^

You can. A year of knowing rails is quite good.

Are you a student, and if so do you study anything humanities-related ?

I would say, create a sourceforge account, join the LogiLogi mailinglist
(https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list), and checkout 
LogiLogi Manta, and have a look at the interface as it is now.

A managable thing you can start with right away is completing and improving
the code for sorting links. I created a stub for it a few weeks ago in link 
and link-part (the <=> operators), but the concept class has no comparison 
operator yet, and the sorting has not yet been tested.

I also forwarded this message to the LogiLogi mailinglist so the other 
interested people know you're in...

If you have your sourceforge account I will add you as a fellow developer.

Welcome!

Wybo

> jennifer

-- 

::Student:
- History, Informatiekunde (computer linguistics, IR, webtech) and Philosophy
- Member of the Center for Metahistory Groningen (http://www.rug.nl/let/cmg)

::Free Software and Open Source Developer:
- http://www.LogiLogi.org, innovative system for cumulative, shared commenting,
                           publication and idea sharing: Web as it should be...
- ComLinToo, a computational linguistics toolset written in Perl
- Lake (LogiLogi.org Make), a make-replacement using makefiles in pure C++

::Being:
- In the world, go figure (http://nl.logilogi.org/HomE/WyboWiersma)

Bruno and others,

The user-interface of LogiLogi manta is beginning to take shape. It's
not HTML-validation-time yet, as it will probably still evolve quite 
a bit (the language-flags will move to a top-bar for example), but you 
can already have a look.

Wybo

My mistake, I sent the message to you directly, I sent it to the list
again now.

> Nice to hear you are working on something like this.  I think that 
> multiple-versions is the new frontier in encyclopedias, and what 
> citizendium primarily seems to be doing is maknig a moderated version of 
> wikipedia (and creating the editorial community around it.)

Indeed. 

> Your idea needs a bit of effort on the part where you select different 
> versions. Instead of voting, there should be a simple way to determine 
> which version you want to see, so that users could select a pre-defined 
> selection of articles depending on their current needs (e.g. a scientists 
> encyclopedia, a philosophers encyclopedia).  Each group would branch (fork) 
> off its own version tree, and edit it to make it specialized for their 
> needs, and they would have to do the work of keeping it up to date vis a 
> vis other branches.

I see what you mean, but a disadvantage of what you suggest is that 
it does not allow the same text to be used by multiple peer-groups. 
This is a result of the coupling of the selection of texts for an user 
to view and their branching into different texts. 

Physically copying and modifying a text is something different from 
deeming it usefull for a certain peer-group.

Actually the peer-group based voting system has a few more advantages 
over the physically forking of the content:
* it allows competition between versions within peergroups (and thus
  it makes disallowing editing by anyone but the owner no problem,
  opening the gates for real intellectual responsibility)
* the peergroups can be self-organizing (voting-power determined by
  votes from the peer-group on one's own contributions)
* peer-groups can start off small and still be usefull, and can be 
  layered (philosophers of history, choosing 'philosophy of history' 
  as their first peer-group, and 'philosophy' as their second. Then 
  if no rating is found for their first peer-group, the philosophy 
  peer-group's rating is used for determining the version they see).

> I would be interested in collaborating with your project, as it sounds like 
> it is on the right track.

You're welcome. You could join the LogiLogi Manta mailinglist for a
start: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list

LogiLogi is written in Ruby (on Rails), and largely along the
principles beautifully described in the book 'Getting Real', by 
the award winning web-development company 37 Signals (with the
difference that LogiLogi Manta is Open Source). 

Rails is really a bliss for the developper, so even if you don't 
have any experience with it, you probably will enjoy learning it.

> BTW Have you heard of Kim Veltman, from the 
> University of Maastricht?  He is also working on knowledge organization, 
> and is a friend of mine.  I worked on one of his projects 10 years ago.

I have heard of him, but I never met him in person. Would be an 
interesting person to meet.

> I think eventually if we can get this demo right, we could then patch 
> MediaWiki also, or extend it to support multiple versions, something 
> Rational's Clearcase does very well.

I already investigated applying the peergroup-system to MediaWiki, 
and the other improvements that LogiLogi Manta brings, but it seems
very hard, at best, not just technically, but also in terms of the 
re-structuring of the articles required (which is why we started 
from scratch).

greetings,

Wybo

> I am a software engineer, btw, and have a personal non-professional 
> interest in knowledge organization that dates back 12 years.
> 
> cheers,
> Hasan Murtaza
> 
> >From: Wybo Wiersma
> >
> >Hasan I fully agree with what you write below about the advantages of
> >"according to"-settings. I already championed for simmilar features,
> >but Larry's choice for a classical encyclopedia-style review process
> >and MediaWiki as a platform makes a real combination of open-ness and
> >quality impossible.
> >
> >LogiLogi Manta, a small project funded by the Philosophy Department of
> >the RuG (a Dutch University) that was already defined and started
> >before Citizendium was announced will implement what you propose in
> >the form of peer-groups:
> >http://en.logilogi.org/MetaLogi/LogiLogiManta
> >
> >In LogiLogi results from new research (due to the peergroup system) or
> >articles for different levels of audience (thanks to to the section
> >system) are no problem either.
> >
> >Of course I understand why a classical review-process is chosen for
> >Citizendium, namely because it is known to and trusted by the target
> >editors audience. The problem is however that it's not optimized for
> >the web as a medium, as it neglects possibilities that the web offers
> >like "according to"-settings.
> >
> >And MediaWiki is the only viable choice if one wants to build upon
> >(all) content of Wikipedia. Nice, but MediaWiki is not designed with
> >combining openness and quality in mind, and adding those features
> >will take much longer than starting from scratch...
> >
> >Expected release date for LogiLogi Manta: around the end of 2006.
> >
> >Wybo
> >
> >> (Just as a google is 10 to the 100th power, a googleplex is 10 to the
> >> googleth power.  By similar reasoning, Just as a the wikipedia is a 
> >single
> >> enyclopedia, a wiki-plex is an ensemble of encyclopedias where every 
> >article
> >> has an infinite number of possible versions associated with it.  
> >(Anybody
> >> can define their own version for themselves.)
> >>
> >> A complex set of preferences could be defined that lets the invidual 
> >reader,
> >> select whose version of the encyclopedia they want to see, subdivided by
> >> section or individual article.
> >>
> >> For example
> >>
> >>
> >> # sample user configuration for the CZ
> >> select latest version by "cambridge university philosophy department" 
> >for
> >> articles on Philosophy
> >> select latest version by nasa for articles on space
> >> select latest version before 2006 by jimmy wales for articles on 
> >wikipedia
> >> select latest modifications by citizendium_group for articles on 
> >anything
> >> else
> >> #etc.
> >>
> >>
> >> With luck, the community will be able to regulate itself and there will 
> >not
> >> be an N-squared explosion of versions defined by everyone and their dog.
> >> One immediate benefit will be that the questions of fairness, 
> >censorship,
> >> and credentials can be avoided in the near term, and these issues can be
> >> pushed far into the future.
> >>
> >>
> >> Everything I have seen in these discussions about the CZ seems to center
> >> around clearing out the trolls, attracting new authors and defending the
> >> realm with a new class of editors, essentially creating a moderated 
> >version
> >> of wikipedia.  Doing the things I mentioned above would truly make it a
> >> citizens encyclopedia.  Another way to understand this is that allowing
> >> "private wikis" to coexist within the larger public wiki would be 
> >equivalent
> >> to creating a merchant class in a medieval society, and it would be just 
> >the
> >> thing to invigorate it with even more activity, and also solve all the
> >> problems related to the lack of differentiation available in a 
> >monoversional
> >> encyclopedia.)
> >>
> >> Hasan

-- 

::Student:
- History, Informatiekunde (computer linguistics, IR, webtech) and Philosophy
- Member of the Center for Metahistory Groningen (http://www.rug.nl/let/cmg)

::Free Software and Open Source Developer:
- http://www.LogiLogi.org, innovative system for cumulative, shared commenting,
                           publication and idea sharing: Web as it should be...
- ComLinToo, a computational linguistics toolset written in Perl
- Lake (LogiLogi.org Make), a make-replacement using makefiles in pure C++

::Being:
- In the world, go figure (http://nl.logilogi.org/HomE/WyboWiersma)

I put the generated documentation of LogiLogi Manta online at:
http://www.logilogi.org/pub/mantadocs/app/

It will be updated automatically as the code is extended.

Wybo

In-between replying tends to make mails longer and longer, so I do not
reply to every single statement, but more so to your core issues.

> system design clearer, then I'd say fire away! But it seems there is no 
> strong contra-distinction; not only does it not really shed light on 
> your design but it runs the risk of alienating those of us who've 
> appreciated wiki for years.

That is not the intention, and I re-formulated the text a bit to
mirror this: http://en.logilogi.org/MetaLogi/LogiLogiIsNoWiki

> > Wiki-like-editing is just a nice  feature, not what it really is about.
>  
> "What it really is about" cannot be operationaly defined, nor "nice 
> feature". I'm talking about system design, not aesthetics and 
> preferences. Do you see what I mean?

To make it plain: Most of the core features of LogiLogi Manta
(peer-groups, adding links to locked texts, rating and tag-links)
can function without support for Wiki-editing at all, and to be
honest I seriously thought about not adding it in for the first
release of Manta and have all articles to be only editable by 
their author.

> "Wiki" is a very clear and unique method of enabling editing. CMS covers 

Here you seem to agree with me on the definition.

Note also that my text was meanth for people visiting LogiLogi, and
thinking 'nice, another Wiki', while that would make them miss the
point about LogiLogi. 

Words and concepts carry associations with them, and where these are 
not very helpfull or precise, different ones are needed for clarity. 
We don't call a chicken a bird all the time.

> >Yes: Extracted from my post to the Citizendium-list:
> >http://en.logilogi.org/MetaLogi/DifferentLevelsOfAudience
>  
> Oh good, thanks for this. (I hope you're keeping a set of writing on 
> your design philosophy.)

I will overtime, as questions arise (in the spirit of the 
Logi-philosophy: http://en.logilogi.org/MetaLogi/LogiS)

>    " The LogiLogiManta <http://en.logilogi.org/MetaLogi/LogiLogiManta>
>    system supports having articles for different levels of audience
>    (different contexts in general) and falling back to other levels if
>    none exists at the requested level.
>    History/Students/Aristotle will for example be a good place for a
>    student-level article on Aristotle from a historical perspective.
>    Linking from History/Students/Parmenides to Aristotle will result in
>    the link shown above as the requested link. If no Aristotle page is
>    available that is tagged with both History and Students, then
>    LogiLogi <http://en.logilogi.org/MetaLogi/LogiLogi> will look for
>    History/Aristotle. If that one cannot be found, Aristotle is used.."
> 
> As an example of what seems concrete to you but is actually abstract to 
> the reader: " Linking from History/Students/Parmenides to Aristotle will 
> result in the link shown above as the requested link" It's very very 
> hard to make concepts like that clear. Believe me, describe things like 
> microwave tracking through airspace or instructions for installing a 
> complex system there are often little ideas that seem impossible to 
> capture with simple sentences. That's part of the challenge.

In my expecience of trying to explain LogiLogi to people I found the
same problem. Now that's why I mainly try to implement it as soon as
possible, so people can actually see and use it as a working system,
which should be much less difficult for them and me...

So unless you look at the code I do not expect you or anyone to be
able to grasp the system in full detail from my descriptions... Those
are meanth to give people an idea of what motivates LogiLogi, and of
what is possible with it from a users perspective in a few months.

> /Operationally/ I have no sense of how the system achieves that, i.e. 
> look and feel and function. "supports having articles for different 
> levels of audience (different contexts in general) and falling back to 
> other levels if none exists at the requested level." ... "supports" and 
> "falling back"; these physical metaphors are only that.

Falling back means here: Doing a database-query History AND Students
AND Aristotle, if no results, reducing it to History AND Aristotle as 
tags, and so on.

> Peek my mess: http://bentrem.sycks.net/wiki/

There is quite a lot to read there, but no UML or non-philosophical
descriptions there either...

> >No, the idea is that in using Agile Development techniques and a platform  
> >that supports it (Rails), coding something is almost as fast as creating a 
> >full blown spec for it.
>  
> Ah. Good for you.
> But ... nothing like "self-documenting code"? So there's nothing for 
> someone on the outside to see?

I did and do discuss design issues with mostly face 2 face. And the 
code is not self-documenting code, but quite well documented manually...

(I will for you and others generate a nice html-representation of the
documentation inside the code later today, and put it online...)

> >http://svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/logilogi/trunk/doc/diagram.png?view=markup
> *Woot=wooot!* Lovely! And what is it that generated the diagram? A 
> component of SVN? I'm impressed!

Not SVN, Rails Application Visualizer: http://rav.rubyforge.org/

> >I must admit that it was not Thunderbird but me. As your e-mail was 
> >formatted
> >in HTML and my mail-reader (a stone-age, Linux console based reader by the 
> >strange name of mutt) could not handle that,
>
> Oh gosh, sorry. I only started using HTML mail routinely about 4 months 
> ago ... I'm a great foot-dragger when it comes to backward 
> compatability. That's twice in the past couple of weeks it has tripped 
> someone up.

Ok, thx for switching back.

> I think I have memories of mutt. But know: I spent years using Pine and 
> Lynx. Heck, I still kind of like Pico.
> ;-)
>
> <cut out>
>
> *Gadd ... "community" is "Politics". Are we to restrict ourselves to 
> discussing awks? or abstractions?*
>
> Speaking of which (do you have connections to the Indymedia community? 
> they're quite Political, I guess) I just re-read documenation on SMS today.

No, although a friend of mine is is sometimes involved with that site.

Wybo

-- 

::Student:
- History, Informatiekunde (computer linguistics, IR, webtech) and Philosophy
- Member of the Center for Metahistory Groningen (http://www.rug.nl/let/cmg)

::Free Software and Open Source Developer:
- http://www.LogiLogi.org, innovative system for cumulative, shared commenting,
                           publication and idea sharing: Web as it should be...
- ComLinToo, a computational linguistics toolset written in Perl
- Lake (LogiLogi.org Make), a make-replacement using makefiles in pure C++

::Being:
- In the world, go figure (http://nl.logilogi.org/HomE/WyboWiersma)

First of all, I'd like to thank you again for reading my mails and
making me questions.

On 9/26/06, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> First of all thanks for the translations! Now we have a mainpage in
> all major European languages!
>
> > I have many ideas that I'd like to share in order to learn more of
> > what others have to say and come up with better ones. I believe that
> > there is a need for a central project for organizing knowledge, or at
> > least the public part of it. The way I see things, for a project of
> > this magnitude, there should be a parallel development from the
> > software (that is also information) to the information inputs of the
> > system (users, editors, nature?, etc), and all of it should be free
> > and open, like the GNU development. This are just some short thoughts,
> > that I'm slowly putting together, but what I've got for sure, is how
> > something like this should begin, and that is, from some basic and
> > temporary infrastructure, where the community that will forge the
> > project could exchange ideas and define how the project will
> > eventually "start". The only thing that is needed for this to happen,
> > is to have clear ideas of the purpose of the project, goals, and some
> > policies. All this initial stones should be only to preserve the
> > project life and not to limit it, something like the GPL tries to
> > solve in the software.
>
> What exactly are your thoughts on this ? Do you have something written
> about this already ? Or could you explain in more depth in what sense
> it would be different from GNU development ?

Ok, when I talk about my thoughts, any of them could be included in
the GNU project/philosophy I believe. I didn't mean that my thoughts
where out of the GNU philosophy, in fact, I believe that the way that
Stallman started the project/movement/philosophy is the way to go, and
fully agree.

In any case, I'm not inventing anything, I'm just trying to put things
that already exists and I believe that working all of them together
would have a extra value.

I don't have anything written, concrete, yet, and this is mostly why
I'm writing to you and would like to exchange ideas in your project,
as I believe I'm headed in a similar path. I've written most of my
ideas in a personal wiki, more like a scrap book, and I could start to
get them straight and public in LogiLogi(Mantra?), as I would like and
really need to get feedback. I will give it a try in my LogiLogi page
(http://en.logilogi.org/HomE/BrunoSarlo)

>
> > I'm writing this to you because I found that we have some ideas in
> > common, and might be headed in the same path...
> >
> > I'd like to share with you some links that I've collected at my
> > del.icio.us account and read while researching about this types of
> > things, and there might be some of your interest.
> > http://del.icio.us/botum/free_information_research
>
> I am looking through them now. The article a Measure of Aggregate
> Syntactic Distance is quite unrelated to free information. I showed
> the page it is embedded in as an example...

Ok, I didn't read it yet, and that tag is to put together the readings
I find interesting and useful to what I'm looking for.

>
> The one on How do people co-create information environments? is quite
> interesting. And the Wikipedia essays are also quite an interesting
> read. And Raw Thought: The Techniques of Mass Collaboration: A Third
> Way Out is quite great, and exactly what LogiLogi tries to do.

I've been much interested in information merging as you could see.
I've been thinking about merging of information as a way of
"democratizing" POV, and I've been thinking about how a "semantic
diff" could work. Then, I got to your project, so you can understand
why I like it so much. Also, there is a big difference between
LogiLogi and what "I've been thinking", and that is, that I've just
been thinking, playing with ideas, and didn't got anything straight
yet, and your project is getting this things to real world.

>
> You also might add ESP, although I am quite sceptical about what they
> try to achieve, still they have a nice IRC-channel and some
> interesting ideas:
> http://blog.espnow.com/

I'll have to read this blog, I'm on the RSS feeds now. I also like a
lot Squareusher and obviously Richard D. James music ;)

>
> May I also invite you to join the LogiLogi mailinglist at:
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list
>
> (and if you agree I would like to post this message to the list
> and from there on continue our conversation in public)

I've replied to the mailing so to get in track.

>
> Wybo
>


-- 
Bruno

> > What LogiLogi adds to this is a  hierarchy (Philosophy/Aristotle/Freedom)
> > through a tagging system and rating from multiple points of view.
> 
> Fabulous ... congratulations. But my point remains unsettled, if only in my
> own mind: I can see how this would make Logi perhaps a superior variant of wiki
> ... am I on track here?

First of all differentiating from Wikis is not meanth defensively. My last reply 
might have been formulated a bit ambiguous in this respect.

You are on and off track. Yes you can say that LogiLogi has Wiki-capabilities,
but the essence of LogiLogi is not in this. Wiki-like-editing is just a nice 
feature, not what it really is about.
 
> > As Wiki's are defined by open edits for all, and generally a flat structure,
> > LogiLogi is different enough to allow for a different term.
>
> I'm sorry, "a different term" doesn't mean anything concrete to me.

Let's try this comparison: Is a Wiki a Content Management System ?

It uses web-scripts and forms, it allows people to add documents to a site, 
and edit their contents, and publish them with no need for HTML-skills...

So yes Wiki's are CMSses. But would we be capable of talking about them easily
and clearly in most contexts if we did away with the word Wiki ?

No, not in my opinion.

Now LogiLogi: It is a web-app, it allows people to add and edit documents, 
but the way in which the documents are named, linked, have to compete with 
eachother, and are displayed depending on the users preferences makes that
a different term is easy. Of course it first of all refers to the concrete
implementation of LogiLogi (Manta) that we are creating, and from there to 
the philosophy behind it. And what it will do from there is up to you and
other people that might deem this system and philosophy usefull...

> Substantially: open access is not definitionally required for wiki. (If I
> closed my Wiki, wiki it would remain.) As for "flat structure" ... Logi uses
> something else? That's the sort of design specification I was looking for on
> the site.

Yes: Extracted from my post to the Citizendium-list:
http://en.logilogi.org/MetaLogi/DifferentLevelsOfAudience

> FWIW I'm looking for a system that will allow me to "hook into" the basic
> wiki foundation, to extend it.

This will not be very easy with LogiLogi Manta as it currently is being 
developped. Although splitting LogiLogi up into separate Webservices is
the first thing on the list after LogiLogi Manta goes live.

If you are in a hurry and just want a wiki, this might be something:

http://api.rails-engines.org/wiki_engine/

> Have you done anything like UML? (I do tech_docs for a living ... I know 
> what a burden this is.)

No, the idea is that in using Agile Development techniques and a platform 
that supports it (Rails), coding something is almost as fast as creating a 
full blown spec for it.

What comes closest is this, generated from the database-layout:

http://svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/logilogi/trunk/doc/diagram.png?view=markup

(updated automatically, on changes, but quite stable now...)

> > This interests me materially as there's a substantial "co-authoring" component
> > in my project (http://bentrem.sycks.net/gnodal/mandate.html).
>
> *blink* Odd ... I don't understand how this pointed at mandate.html ... it's
> as though Thunderbird imposed some auto-completion. I hate that.

I must admit that it was not Thunderbird but me. As your e-mail was formatted
in HTML and my mail-reader (a stone-age, Linux console based reader by the 
strange name of mutt) could not handle that, I copied your message from my
browser and that lost me the link, and as the mandate was listed as: A brief 
description listing the projects intentions, this seemed to me to be the 
quickest way for casual list-readers to grasp what your project was about.

> > I think LogiLogi could be just the project for you. Of course LogiLogi does
> > not have Politics as it's primary objective, but it can be very usefull for
> > people that want to be or become, or discuss things, as informed citizens.
> 
> huh huh ... how does "primary objective" come to qualify the underlying
> mechanics? And anyhow, where did "Politics" come into this at all?

The mandate is written in quite political language: citizens, public 
deliberation, community, concerns, participate, public policy. It must have
put me on the wrong leg regarding what motivated it...

> > Of course LogiLogi also has it's limits. Chatting will for example never 
> > be a part of LogiLogi.
>
> Now, that's a good example of what I mean by "cross-channel transactions" ...
> a challenge to integration. )I might not choose to include Chat, but IM has its
> good uses. If a user can benefit from it, as an architect it isn't my role to
> block him.)

My approach is that good web-project has a clear goal, clear means, and 
clear limits. The web is increasingly about narrow applications that are 
good at what they do because they are limited, and can share value with 
other applications (google maps, RSS). That is also why after Manta the 
first thing will be dividing LogiLogi into separate webservices.

(So yes, IM is great, and should be used, but LogiLogi plays a different
ball-game...)

greetings,

Wybo Wiersma

> Hello -
> 
> Following a link in your post to citizendium I found your site and read this:
>
>     " Although LogiLogi looks a bit like a wiki, and is all about open-ness,
> just like them, the difference between LogiLogi and most wiki's becomes more
> apparent in the direction LogiLogi takes. It targets discussion and
> philosophical and socio-scientific innovation instead of doc- or
> encyclopedia-building. Although there do exist a few discussion-wiki's, this is
> not the field in which they shine, and I think that this is because discussions
> require a different web-application."
>
> appreciate your sentiments and applaud your effort but I wonder: how does
> LogiLogi differ from Wiki? Since Wiki does not define itself by subject matter
> it must be more than that.

In LogiLogi page-rating and peer-group systems are central and page-locking is 
not an emergency measure. The open-ness in LogiLogi is in the fact that multiple
pages can compete for one name (concept with one or more names). In this aspect
it is simmilar to http://www.everything2.com. What LogiLogi adds to this is a 
hierarchy (Philosophy/Aristotle/Freedom) through a tagging system and rating 
from multiple points of view.

As Wiki's are defined by open edits for all, and generally a flat structure,
LogiLogi is different enough to allow for a different term.

> What I was looking for but did not find was some text that depicted the
> system design in operational terms; without those I find philosophical
> descriptions to serve as merely narrative.

I can try a little practical use case example: I am a visitor looking for 
something on the Philosophy of Aristotle (as opposed to his Historic influence). 
I key in http://www.logilogi.org/Philosophy/Aristotle. I visited LogiLogi 
before, so I already set my preferred languages, and peer-group. Thus from
the 30 or so articles that have Philosophy and Aristotle as their tags, twenty
remain that have Aristotle as their primary tag. Of those 10 remain in English. 
Those are sorted by the rating they received from my peer-group, and without
me doing anything the highest rated one is shown to me.

I can now rate it myself or look at the second-best article, and so on. Or I 
can edit it, if it was not locked. If it was (and the author thus was able to 
take intellectual responsibillity for it), and I really want to change it,
I can decide to fork it. It is then copied, and stored under a different 
unique-id, but it will be competing for the same tags (and others if I like
so, and my change gives reason for this).

Of course I as a visitor, or as an editor, can do much more with LogiLogi 
Manta, but this gives an idea.

> This interests me materially as there's a substantial "co-authoring" component 
> in my project (http://bentrem.sycks.net/gnodal/mandate.html).

I think LogiLogi could be just the project for you. Of course LogiLogi does 
not have Politics as it's primary objective, but it can be very usefull for 
people that want to be or become, or discuss things, as informed citizens.

Of course LogiLogi also has it's limits. Chatting will for example never be 
a part of LogiLogi.

Wybo

> regards
> ben

(ps: I forwarded this message to the logilogi mailinglist)

As you can see the mailinglist works well now.

I welcome you all to the LogiLogi mailinglist.

LogiLogi is Open Source.

LogiLogi is free and open.

LogiLogi is quality and open-ness of content through meritocracy.

The first thing that we will focus on is bringing forth LogiLogi Manta:
http://en.logilogi.org/MetaLogi/LogiLogiManta

The old version of LogiLogi is already online at:
http://www.logilogi.org/

All things regarding LogiLogi are open for discussion, but we have a
clear design (also look at the code for this), and a clear vision, so
not every discussion will lead to changes in the direction that Manta,
the first upcoming version of LogiLogi will take.

greetings,
Wybo Wiersma

--

::Student:
- History, Informatiekunde (computer linguistics, IR, webtech) and Philosophy
- Member of the Center for Metahistory Groningen (http://www.rug.nl/let/cmg)

::Free Software and Open Source Developer:
- http://www.LogiLogi.org, innovative system for cumulative, shared commenting,
                           publication and idea sharing: Web as it should be...
- ComLinToo, a computational linguistics toolset written in Perl
- Lake (LogiLogi.org Make), a make-replacement using makefiles in pure C++

::Being:
- In the world, go figure (http://nl.logilogi.org/HomE/WyboWiersma)