logilogi-list Mailing List for LogiLogi - Software Libre for the Web (Page 35)

Let us all welcome Bram Neijt to the LogiLogi Foundation List!

He was with us (Bruno & Miguel) at the Fosdem in Brussels last year,
and he will be working on a pet-side-project of his; an application
for email so simple to use, and so free of spam, that literally your
grandparents can use it...

This will be his first rails-app, and it will be supported by me and
the LogiLogi Foundation...

greetings,
and welcome to Bram!,

Wybo

This message was in error, sent when I made the commits with
new rake-tasks moved from OgOg to LL...

I'm done now moving the voting system from OgOg to LL. There is now
only a difference between voting-weights, and no longer between the
number of votes people are allowed to cast. Also the voting-power of
authors is now changed in real-time, on every vote on their logis.

Now most if not all cleanup work is done. Thus Andrew and Charles, we
are now really waiting for your pplz code. At least let me/us know why
you were delayed or when you will show that my and Bruno's trust and
faith in your pplz skills and personality is justified.

Wybo

-- 

::Student:
- Informatiekunde (computer linguistics, IR, webtech) and Philosophy
- Member of the Center for Metahistory Groningen (http://www.rug.nl/let/cmg)

::Free Software and Open Source Developer:
- Active in the LogiLogi Foundation (http://foundation.logilogi.org)
- http://www.LogiLogi.org, Cumulative, shared commenting, publication and
                           idea sharing: Where insight comes together...
- http://www.OgOg.org, RSS feed articles rating, a meritocracy...
- ComLinToo, a computational linguistics toolset written in Perl

::Being:
- In the world, wavy hair, go figure (http://nl.logilogi.org/HomE/WyboWiersma)

> What I first thought about, is that we could talk about what we would set as
> a goal to get to, and what could be achieved in the next release, so we
> don't put so much pressure on not crucial stuff. So, if changing the way it

I fully agree. Time for some targets!

> works now gives a lot of work, and how it works and fulfill the needs, we
> could then leave like it is now and discuss on how it could potentially be.

'k. Indeed, so we head for the first usable-by-alpha's release as soon as
possible, without fiddling too much with the current workings.

Imho the priorities are:

* Editing/creating Logi's.
* Having menu's and sections and fall-through logi-finding just like the
  current version.
* Having the user to know where he is in the tree at all times.
* Ranking of Logi's according to their rating.
* Showing incoming links for Logi's
* PeerGroups & basic UserGroups.

For this we need the UI of Andrew - and to be honest we do want to have it
(at least some basis of it) fast; in 2 or 3 weeks max - I am currently able to
do some small stuff like code-cleanups and migrating the simpler voting-system
(just differences in voting-weight, no limits in the number of votes) from OgOg
to Manta.

Then we also need the Diff-code of Charl, but the timing of that is more
interfering with my personal agenda than with that of Manta (I still need to
make the Google maps integration-module for the course...).

Then when we have an UI again, we should start polishing things, and improve
usabillity untill we are happy enough about it for the official release.

Important dates are:
* the 13th and 14th of Oktober when I will (in the name of the LogiLogi
  Foundation) be attending the T-Dose Open Source conference in the
  Netherlands...
* the 26th of Oktober, then, if all goes as can be expected, I will be allowed
  to do an usabillity test in a side-room of the conference-center where the
  Annual Dutch Mensa-meeting will be held.
* the 28th of January, the World-LogiLogi day :) On this day we definitely
  should have Manta running.

For the time after that, a whole lot of things could be on the agenda, like
generalizing the PeerGroup-system between OgOg and Manta, and making it
publicly available through an API, but that's to be seen & discussed later
on I think...

> Then this is my view about a potential URL specification:
> 
> I understand Wybo's point about the order and I think your are right about
> context/content.
> I also still think that when we type (for example in a search box), we first
> type the point of interest (could be multiple also) in this case "foucault",
> and then we would then add tags of context in order to get deeper into what
> we seek about "foucault".

That's indeed the order in which we could do things in the wizzard. So the
wizzard would be - as you type - filling up from Aristotle, RuG, History, the
requested-url-bar with /RuG/History/Aristotle...

> What I see is that we will need to pass lot's of information in the url, and
> we should get flexibility. In this path, I like better the approach of
> variables separated by simbols (&$:![]), as we should get a standard
> language both to write them (writing links with context, related, versions,
> etc) or to read them (URL bar). I imagine an array structure passed to the
> url like examlpe.com?tags[foucault][Bachelor2,History,RuG]. I say arrays as
> I'm working with php right now (I know you like it Wybo), but I like better
> the lists of lists and tuples of python (guess ruby also has it)...
> I like how content[context1, context2, context3] works.

Hm, I'd have to think about this, as I don't quite see why we cannot have
beautifull urls like (/RuG/History/Aristotle=i100=v2 tastes can differ ;) as
far as it goes, and then add normal variables-stuff like ?$moo=boo where
needed (preferably only in AJAX-requests...).

> I will research a little bit to know better what it can be done and it's
> advantages or disadvantages.

Ok,

Wybo

PS: Yes I'm again away for the weekend, this time with the student-
association of Philosophy of our Uni... (how's madeinsantelmo.com doing ?)

Hi all,

I just wanted to give my short and humble opinion about this, humble since I
don't consider myself a programmer.

What I first thought about, is that we could talk about what we would set as
a goal to get to, and what could be achieved in the next release, so we
don't put so much pressure on not crucial stuff. So, if changing the way it
works now gives a lot of work, and how it works and fulfill the needs, we
could then leave like it is now and discuss on how it could potentially be.

Then this is my view about a potential URL specification:

I understand Wybo's point about the order and I think your are right about
context/content.
I also still think that when we type (for example in a search box), we first
type the point of interest (could be multiple also) in this case "foucault",
and then we would then add tags of context in order to get deeper into what
we seek about "foucault".

What I see is that we will need to pass lot's of information in the url, and
we should get flexibility. In this path, I like better the approach of
variables separated by simbols (&$:![]), as we should get a standard
language both to write them (writing links with context, related, versions,
etc) or to read them (URL bar). I imagine an array structure passed to the
url like examlpe.com?tags[foucault][Bachelor2,History,RuG]. I say arrays as
I'm working with php right now (I know you like it Wybo), but I like better
the lists of lists and tuples of python (guess ruby also has it)...
I like how content[context1, context2, context3] works.

I will research a little bit to know better what it can be done and it's
advantages or disadvantages.

On 8/29/07, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
>
> To come back to my own post, and to the tag-order issue; I think that
> changing the tag-order brings more problems in the end than advantages,
> and thus I am now not wholly convinced anymore of the need for it...
>
> Have a look at this (common) use-case shown for both alternatives and
> you will see why:
>
> A student visits the page RuG (my university) and then wants to go to
> the History page (which becomes RuG/History with dir-style tag-order
> and with the reversed order: History,RuG) and then navigates to the
> Bachelor2-page (RuG/History/Bachelor2 with dir-style tag-order, and
> Bachelor2,History,RuG with reversed) and from there to the not yet
> existing Foucault-page (RuG/History/Bachelor2/Foucault dir-style and
> Foucault,Bachelor2,History,RuG as reversed).
>
> The problem with the reversed tag-order is that page-priority is not
> as you want it anymore.
>
> In case of:
>
> RuG
> History,RuG
> Bachelor2,History,RuG
> Foucault,Bachelor2,History,RuG
>
> The last url will when searching for the Foucault-page with reversed
> tag-order first drop RuG, while with dir-style-tag-order it will first
> drop Bachelor2 (so it could be found as tagged with - if that one
> exists - RuG/History/Bachelor1/Foucault).
>
> This could be fixed by changing the navigation-tree of the reversed
> tag-order into:
>
> RuG
> History,RuG
> Bachelor2,RuG,History
> Foucault,RuG,History,Bachelor2
>
> But that doesn't make any sense anymore, and it would be very hard to
> intuitively set in logi's (like ./Bachelor2 in /RuG/History gets you
> /RuG/History/Bachelor2) and what menu's are attached to would also
> become totally unclear (for reversed): the first if it has a menu, and
> back from the last if it has not).
>
> The menu's (as *'s):
>
> RuG*
> History*,RuG
> Bachelor2*,RuG,History
> Foucault,RuG,History,Bachelor2*
>
> And last but not least there is a nice analogy to content-tags (former
> primary tags) and context-tags (former secondary) in files (as content)
> and directories (as context).
>
> And yes we still should make everything more beautifull - as in
> Andrews design - by leaving the logi-id's & -versions out from the url-
> bars, and by adding a wizzard for adding requested tags.
>
> Thus unless good reasons given by you change my view again, I think we
> do follow the convention (as far as we do) of the directory-analogy in
> the end...
>
> Wybo
>
> > I'm having a look at the changes needed for changing the link-order.
> >
> > About the in-text links (3rd alinea from the bottom), might having a
> > larger than/smaller than sign - almost as arrows - be an idea?
> >
> > > And the whole lot combined:
> > >
> > > john_kennedy_12=v3@en
> ~menu~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity$mode=transclude$stance=questions
> > >
> > > Which was (with <user_name>_<post_id>):
> > >
> > > GroningenUniversity/history/Plato~menu@en
> =john_kennedy_12=v3$mode=transclude$stance=questions
> > >
> > > To be honest it takes quite a switch, but Andrews is more consistent
> > > with the order of importantce of the bits of the link in the
> request...
> > >
> > > There is a small issue though with the directory-analogy-derived
> > > navigation bits. Currently when one is editing:
> > >
> > > GroningenUniversity/history/Socrates=john_kennedy_15
> > >
> > > And one then adds a link inside the body, lets say to Aristotle, this
> > > link becomes: GroningenUniversity/history/Aristotle, adding the edit-
> > > context in front... And here one used to be able to point the link to
> > > /Aristotle, or to ../Aristotle to end up with Aristotle, resp
> > > GroningenUniversity/Aristotle, just like one would in a shell.
> > >
> > > These navigation-structures can be replaced by something in the link-
> > > adding UI, like showing the context-tags, and making them removable
> > > by clicking.
> > >
> > > And for quickly adding links in the running text, we should have to
> > > look at something else, like appending a comma for leaving out the
> > > context, or something like that...
>
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-- 
Bruno

To come back to my own post, and to the tag-order issue; I think that
changing the tag-order brings more problems in the end than advantages,
and thus I am now not wholly convinced anymore of the need for it...

Have a look at this (common) use-case shown for both alternatives and
you will see why:

A student visits the page RuG (my university) and then wants to go to
the History page (which becomes RuG/History with dir-style tag-order
and with the reversed order: History,RuG) and then navigates to the
Bachelor2-page (RuG/History/Bachelor2 with dir-style tag-order, and
Bachelor2,History,RuG with reversed) and from there to the not yet
existing Foucault-page (RuG/History/Bachelor2/Foucault dir-style and
Foucault,Bachelor2,History,RuG as reversed).

The problem with the reversed tag-order is that page-priority is not
as you want it anymore.

In case of:

RuG
History,RuG
Bachelor2,History,RuG
Foucault,Bachelor2,History,RuG

The last url will when searching for the Foucault-page with reversed
tag-order first drop RuG, while with dir-style-tag-order it will first
drop Bachelor2 (so it could be found as tagged with - if that one
exists - RuG/History/Bachelor1/Foucault).

This could be fixed by changing the navigation-tree of the reversed
tag-order into:

RuG
History,RuG
Bachelor2,RuG,History
Foucault,RuG,History,Bachelor2

But that doesn't make any sense anymore, and it would be very hard to
intuitively set in logi's (like ./Bachelor2 in /RuG/History gets you
/RuG/History/Bachelor2) and what menu's are attached to would also
become totally unclear (for reversed): the first if it has a menu, and
back from the last if it has not).

The menu's (as *'s):

RuG*
History*,RuG
Bachelor2*,RuG,History
Foucault,RuG,History,Bachelor2*

And last but not least there is a nice analogy to content-tags (former
primary tags) and context-tags (former secondary) in files (as content)
and directories (as context).

And yes we still should make everything more beautifull - as in
Andrews design - by leaving the logi-id's & -versions out from the url-
bars, and by adding a wizzard for adding requested tags.

Thus unless good reasons given by you change my view again, I think we
do follow the convention (as far as we do) of the directory-analogy in
the end...

Wybo

> I'm having a look at the changes needed for changing the link-order.
> 
> About the in-text links (3rd alinea from the bottom), might having a
> larger than/smaller than sign - almost as arrows - be an idea?
> 
> > And the whole lot combined:
> > 
> > john_kennedy_12=v3@en~menu~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity$mode=transclude$stance=questions
> > 
> > Which was (with <user_name>_<post_id>):
> > 
> > GroningenUniversity/history/Plato~menu@en=john_kennedy_12=v3$mode=transclude$stance=questions
> > 
> > To be honest it takes quite a switch, but Andrews is more consistent
> > with the order of importantce of the bits of the link in the request...
> > 
> > There is a small issue though with the directory-analogy-derived
> > navigation bits. Currently when one is editing:
> > 
> > GroningenUniversity/history/Socrates=john_kennedy_15
> > 
> > And one then adds a link inside the body, lets say to Aristotle, this
> > link becomes: GroningenUniversity/history/Aristotle, adding the edit-
> > context in front... And here one used to be able to point the link to
> > /Aristotle, or to ../Aristotle to end up with Aristotle, resp
> > GroningenUniversity/Aristotle, just like one would in a shell.
> > 
> > These navigation-structures can be replaced by something in the link-
> > adding UI, like showing the context-tags, and making them removable
> > by clicking.
> > 
> > And for quickly adding links in the running text, we should have to
> > look at something else, like appending a comma for leaving out the
> > context, or something like that...

I'm having a look at the changes needed for changing the link-order.

About the in-text links (3rd alinea from the bottom), might having a
larger than/smaller than sign - almost as arrows - be an idea?

Like instead of:

(editing inside aa/bb)
../b2/cc
-> aa/b2/cc

(editing inside bb/aa)
cc/b2>
-> cc/b2/aa

And insead of:
(editing inside aa/bb)
./cc
-> aa/bb/cc

(editing inside bb/aa)
cc<
-> cc/bb/aa

A practical problem could be the interference with html/xml, but on
the other hand, a simple escape could fix that.

Opinions ?

Wybo

> And the whole lot combined:
> 
> john_kennedy_12=v3@en~menu~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity$mode=transclude$stance=questions
> 
> Which was (with <user_name>_<post_id>):
> 
> GroningenUniversity/history/Plato~menu@en=john_kennedy_12=v3$mode=transclude$stance=questions
> 
> To be honest it takes quite a switch, but Andrews is more consistent
> with the order of importantce of the bits of the link in the request...
> 
> There is a small issue though with the directory-analogy-derived
> navigation bits. Currently when one is editing:
> 
> GroningenUniversity/history/Socrates=john_kennedy_15
> 
> And one then adds a link inside the body, lets say to Aristotle, this
> link becomes: GroningenUniversity/history/Aristotle, adding the edit-
> context in front... And here one used to be able to point the link to
> /Aristotle, or to ../Aristotle to end up with Aristotle, resp
> GroningenUniversity/Aristotle, just like one would in a shell.
> 
> These navigation-structures can be replaced by something in the link-
> adding UI, like showing the context-tags, and making them removable
> by clicking.
> 
> And for quickly adding links in the running text, we should have to
> look at something else, like appending a comma for leaving out the
> context, or something like that...
> 
> Anyway, what do you people think of this link-structure ?
> 
> Pragmatically speaking I won't be able to implement this in the
> remaining two and a half days before I go on holiday, so I will not
> start with it, in order not to break the trunk. Andrew if you are
> going to commit your code in the coming 3 weeks, you can first use
> the current link-structure in the url-bar, and only add the link-
> tags in reverse order to the UI.
> 
> greetings,
> and comments very welcome,
> 
> Wybo

I'm again away for the weekend with some friends. I have not yet
found the time for reversing the order of links, but I'll finish/
do that soon.

I hope you Charles and Andrew are not waiting with your
integrations/commits for me to complete this,

Wybo

PS: Bruno, to come back to some earlier chat; yes it would be great if
you added some good Spanish feeds to OgOg; also a Spanish translation
would make me very happy :) But I understand that you're busey and I
wish you good luck with the first days of http://madeinsantelmo.com/
(seems to be an error now...) might they already begin this weekend...

I still found this e-mail of you Bruno, hereby my late (sorry for
that) answer...

> > > > Also the UI was improved a bit, and memory-usage reduced... We are
> > > > still having a small memory-leak in OgOg though...
> > >
> > > I like a lot the UI improvements.
> >
> > Great. Any specific comments or problems left ?
>
> Ok, here goes an observation. You are showing lot's of information on
> OgOg right now, in big spaces (boxes), with avatars, big stars, tags,
> etc, and this is great, very web2.0ish... I see this also takes lots
> of visual space, and the impotance of elements in the frontpage is not
> distributed as I think I'd do it.

Do you think this is better now ? I tried to differentiate between the
central page-elements and the extra ones by giving the extra ones a
blueish background... But be honest if it's not ;)

> * the big top bar (which didn't actually saw it's req/rec
> functionality usefull yet). It could easy be smaller, and even be
> smaller and have more relevance and be more clear to the user. Big is
> not always more clear or relevant.

Still think this should be made smaller ?

> * Then I see the menu, which is very useful the information it has,
> and like how it's categorized. I't also has a priviledge place on the
> page. I'd say to make more clear the login, and get the user name
> clear, and related to the user put the information of viewpoints
> power. When not logued in, the user already has power, so he should
> also have a name, "guest"? "welcome guest, Your voting power for the
> Overall viewpoint is: 1.0

The guest-thing is a good idea, added it!

> * Then I see the header of introduction to ogog, which is exelent
> expanation and a need in the beginning of the project, but it's taking
> lot's of space too.

It is yes, now even more with the languages; but it doesn't show for
logged in users...

> + I would work on the url bar to get it to have more relevance, and
> use less space.
> + I would get the tags to the top, maybe relocating the menu somewhere
> else (like proposed to logilogi on top right, don't know), but I'd get
> the tags to be more relevant, as they are the main tool for browsing
> ogog.

Good ideas are welcome on this. Making the menu smaller might also be
a good idea maybe...? (for moving it might mess things up)

> I also like the tow columns there were at the beginning, which becomed
> tabs now, which is great, but I would think of getting some extra view
> of posts at the frontpage, or other interesting information, rather
> than new users, feeds... maybe a list of the top rated 2-3 of each
> viewpoint of the last week, month?

I added the top-3 of all times, complete with laurels... Better ?

Besides the users, and feeds-listings have become more relevant now,
as feeds and users are tagged now with all tags of their posts, so
for every tag there will be something there...

> Also, the UI changes favorable when I'm logged in.
> 
> It has been a major change in the linking of the parts of the posts. I
> see you've choosed to go the digg way (just to compare it), that the
> title will take you to the original post, not to the ogog full post
> view as before. It's hard to tell what's the best option, but I see

Indeed; I got quite some complaints about having it the other way
(especially from bloggers, whose critique I understand... the blog is
and should be central, not the index-site...), and besides it was/is
quite hard to get all posts to show nicely, the snippets are already
hard, but enthire posts sometimes looked really bad...

> this approach will make it harder to get votes at ogog, since I can't
> read the full article and rate it. I think there is a lot of testing
> on this to get to the best UI, but we are on the way...

Might it not make rating easier also ? As before one had to view the
entire article and now one can already rate based on the snippets...

But I see your point...

> As I see it, we should get to a UI that will let the user read posts
> as soon as he gets to the site, and if he is logged in, then he should
> be presented with relevant posts of his interest. I'd like to see more
> content on the front page, and move many things to preferences, stats,
> etc. to get them a little more out of the way.

Now one can see posts since one logged in. Does this come close ?

> Other thing I'd suggest, is to keep users loggued in much longer,
> since I get logged out and then I vote and the vote is counted to the
> guest, not my account... while I set at openid to keep me logued in
> and allow forever, it will log me out too quick...

Fixed that too... Session-time is now 24 hours...

> I'm only criticizing the UI in the hope of exchange ideas, as always,
> but I'd prefere to get down to get a draft of a proposal to improve
> what I see could be improved.

Would be interested in seeing a draft for OgOg (but I understand that
you're busey now with the travel-site-launch... keep me updated on
that one's development too!).

Cordially,

Wybo

Hi all, the OgOg-stuff I did last week finally was completed:

http://foundation.logilogi.org/2007/8/23/ogog-top-3-new-since-visit-tagging-feeds

OgOg.org has received a big code cleanup, and some new features, among
which a Top 3 Posts of All Times listing, and the default listing of
new posts since one’s last login. Also feeds and users are now tagged
with the tags of their posts, which makes browsing the user- and
feed-rankings quite interesting.

Also we are still looking for OgOg ambassadors, so have a look, get
up, and lead your language :)

Now back to Manta,
(I'll be doing the order of urls the coming time),

Wybo

> Sad to hear the bad news, will we be able to apply next time? how does
> this works?

We will be able to apply next time. On the 28th of september it opens,
and in november it closes... So this time we should send in our
proposal immediately, instead of a few hours before closing time (like
this time), so we can get feedback, and phrase our case a bit better...

To be honest I think we have a good chance of getting in next round...
(but we will be further in development then around december, so our
targets in the application will move a bit...)

> I'll have some work to show to compensate a little bit the bad news,
> which is the project I was working at (for tourists), in which I've
> been playing with the UI, tags, and the result has a lot to do with my
> proposal to logilogi UI, and also we are testing a tag-cloud
> navigation system that is working out pretty well.

Interesting!

> I've been working really hard with miguel also, for the las weeks, and
> we are really close to open up the invitation only preview and
> afterwards the Beta version :). I'll send you all invitations
> obviously! I'll explain more in thepth later.

Cool. Looking forward to exploring it, and we might see interesting
things in it for Manta...

I've already had a nice chat with Charles, and he said he soon will
commit his code... (around/after the weekend). Good news!

I hope Andrew's great work on the UI will be here soon too...

In the meantime I'm applying some small improvements to OgOg.

greetings,

Wybo

Hey! great to hear from you again!

Sad to hear the bad news, will we be able to apply next time? how does
this works?

I'll have some work to show to compensate a little bit the bad news,
which is the project I was working at (for tourists), in which I've
been playing with the UI, tags, and the result has a lot to do with my
proposal to logilogi UI, and also we are testing a tag-cloud
navigation system that is working out pretty well.

I've been working really hard with miguel also, for the las weeks, and
we are really close to open up the invitation only preview and
afterwards the Beta version :). I'll send you all invitations
obviously! I'll explain more in thepth later.

have to go now! glad to talk again!

On 8/13/07, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> I'm back from Bali... It was a great and amazing holiday...
>
> But I've bad news on our grant-proposal. No other project dropped off
> the list, so we didn't get from the reserve-list into it...
>
> So Manta is for the time to come again a matter of our own determination
> and effort. It comes down to us and our own spare-time to make Manta
> happen. But we will!
>
> greetings,
>
> Wybo
>
> PS: Charl and Andrew I am really looking forward to your commits. Even
> if not perfect, or not even working yet, we need to get the code together
> to proceed.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
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>


-- 
Bruno

I'm back from Bali... It was a great and amazing holiday...

But I've bad news on our grant-proposal. No other project dropped off
the list, so we didn't get from the reserve-list into it...

So Manta is for the time to come again a matter of our own determination
and effort. It comes down to us and our own spare-time to make Manta
happen. But we will!

greetings,

Wybo

PS: Charl and Andrew I am really looking forward to your commits. Even
if not perfect, or not even working yet, we need to get the code together
to proceed.

> > I'm leaving for holiday (Bali, Indonesia) tomorrow at 5:20...
>
> Wow! Indonesia! what a great place to go holidays.

It is indeed. I arrived safely yesterday, and it surely is beautiful.
The weather is quite nice with a fresh sea-breeze... Also we went to a
kite-vestival yesterday, with beautiful traditional Indonesian
kites...

> > I wish you all a good time, and I hope to see some commits when I
> > pop into an internet-cafe some time this/next week. Bruno I leave
> > the daily leadership of the projects to you untill the 13th of
> > august, when I'll be back...
>
> Ok, great. I'll help out with whatever arrases, and will try to stay
> online as much as possible on #logilogi.

Great, as internet is really slow here, and hard to find. Probably
there will be no internet at all at our second hotel, where we will go
in about 12 days...

> Also, please, what happened to the Manta pre-alpha at
> http://www.logilogi.org:3000? it's offline

I will fix it when I get home...

> > greetings and back soon,
> 
> Man, hope you a great journey! enjoy!

Thanks!

greetings,

Wybo

> -- 
> Bruno

On 7/18/07, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> I'm leaving for holiday (Bali, Indonesia) tomorrow at 5:20...
>
Wow! Indonesia! what a great place to go holidays.

> I wish you all a good time, and I hope to see some commits when I
> pop into an internet-cafe some time this/next week. Bruno I leave
> the daily leadership of the projects to you untill the 13th of
> august, when I'll be back...
>
Ok, great. I'll help out with whatever arrases, and will try to stay
online as much as possible on #logilogi.

Also, please, what happened to the Manta pre-alpha at
http://www.logilogi.org:3000? it's offline

> greetings and back soon,
>
> Wybo
>

Man, hope you a great journey! enjoy!

-- 
Bruno

I'm leaving for holiday (Bali, Indonesia) tomorrow at 5:20...

I wish you all a good time, and I hope to see some commits when I
pop into an internet-cafe some time this/next week. Bruno I leave
the daily leadership of the projects to you untill the 13th of
august, when I'll be back...

greetings and back soon,

Wybo

On 7/17/07, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> > > Bruno if you would like to become OgOg ambassador for the Spanish
> > > site, that would be great. And if anyone from the Nijmegen team
> > > would like to become ambassador for the Dutch site I'm willing to
> > > step aside...
> >
> > I got suscribed. let me know what to do next.
>
> I added you as an user to the Spanish section, and I made you admin...
>
> The ambassadors-list fetched from the db is still a work in progress...
>
> You can translate OgOg to Spanish if you wish, for this you should edit
> the po/es/ogog.po file, adding the translations to the empty strings. It's
> standard gettext-format, so there might even be tools for it...
>
> You will be able to checkout OgOg from:
> https://logilogi.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/logilogi/projects/ogog/trunk
>
I'll do it.

> > > Also the UI was improved a bit, and memory-usage reduced... We are
> > > still having a small memory-leak in OgOg though...
> >
> > I like a lot the UI improvements.
>
> Great. Any specific comments or problems left ?
Ok, here goes an observation. You are showing lot's of information on
OgOg right now, in big spaces (boxes), with avatars, big stars, tags,
etc, and this is great, very web2.0ish... I see this also takes lots
of visual space, and the impotance of elements in the frontpage is not
distributed as I think I'd do it.

I'm not working on a so big screen, a 14'' at 1280x800 resolution.
When I first enter OgOg, what I see is:
* LL.org network links, which I think it has been a great
incorporation, I love it, and wish to expand it asap... ;)
* the big top bar (which didn't actually saw it's req/rec
functionality usefull yet). It could easy be smaller, and even be
smaller and have more relevance and be more clear to the user. Big is
not always more clear or relevant.
* Then I see the menu, which is very useful the information it has,
and like how it's categorized. I't also has a priviledge place on the
page. I'd say to make more clear the login, and get the user name
clear, and related to the user put the information of viewpoints
power. When not logued in, the user already has power, so he should
also have a name, "guest"? "welcome guest, Your voting power for the
Overall viewpoint is: 1.0
* Then I see the header of introduction to ogog, which is exelent
expanation and a need in the beginning of the project, but it's taking
lot's of space too.
* Then, I see the "top posts" column, from wich I can only see the
first post up to the half.
* I also see the third column with the "users" list, which is nice to
have and show, but it's also taking too much space.
* At the left bottom corner of the page, I see the "tag cloud" box,
but don't see the tags.

I've made this description as I think it makes my point clear just by
the way I describe it.

+ I would work on the url bar to get it to have more relevance, and
use less space.
+ I would get the tags to the top, maybe relocating the menu somewhere
else (like proposed to logilogi on top right, don't know), but I'd get
the tags to be more relevant, as they are the main tool for browsing
ogog.

I also like the tow columns there were at the beginning, which becomed
tabs now, which is great, but I would think of getting some extra view
of posts at the frontpage, or other interesting information, rather
than new users, feeds... maybe a list of the top rated 2-3 of each
viewpoint of the last week, month?

Also, the UI changes favorable when I'm logged in.

It has been a major change in the linking of the parts of the posts. I
see you've choosed to go the digg way (just to compare it), that the
title will take you to the original post, not to the ogog full post
view as before. It's hard to tell what's the best option, but I see
this approach will make it harder to get votes at ogog, since I can't
read the full article and rate it. I think there is a lot of testing
on this to get to the best UI, but we are on the way...

As I see it, we should get to a UI that will let the user read posts
as soon as he gets to the site, and if he is logged in, then he should
be presented with relevant posts of his interest. I'd like to see more
content on the front page, and move many things to preferences, stats,
etc. to get them a little more out of the way.

Other thing I'd suggest, is to keep users loggued in much longer,
since I get logged out and then I vote and the vote is counted to the
guest, not my account... while I set at openid to keep me logued in
and allow forever, it will log me out too quick...

I'm only criticizing the UI in the hope of exchange ideas, as always,
but I'd prefere to get down to get a draft of a proposal to improve
what I see could be improved.

I'll go now, we'll talk further later.

>
> > > ~ Bruno's Logo ~
> > >
> > > > It's just a quick scratch, but it could get better.
> > > > How do you all like it? ;)
> >
> > > I like it, but the font maybe could become Verdana. Also the L's
> > > might be moved a bit closer to eachother...
> > >
> > > Nice initiative!
> >
> > I'll work on it.
>
> Ok.
>
> > > ~ The Grant ~
> > >
> > > Tomorrow I will be going to Amsterdam to have a take-in meeting
> > > about our grant-proposal. It is not yet certain though that Manta
> > > will receive the grant...
> >
> > Good luck man! keep us up to the news!
>
> It went quite well to be honest! We're the top project on the reserve-
> list and in most last rounds at least one project was dropped from the
> main list... We had a great conversation, and they liked Manta and the
> ideas behind it...
>
> So there is a chance that manta will be subsidized...
>
> In 3 weeks we will hear it more definitively...

Great!
>
> Also Andrew there might be some place for you too, on the team
>
> greetings,
>
> Wybo
>
>

-- 
Bruno

> > Bruno if you would like to become OgOg ambassador for the Spanish
> > site, that would be great. And if anyone from the Nijmegen team
> > would like to become ambassador for the Dutch site I'm willing to
> > step aside...
> 
> I got suscribed. let me know what to do next.

I added you as an user to the Spanish section, and I made you admin...

The ambassadors-list fetched from the db is still a work in progress...

You can translate OgOg to Spanish if you wish, for this you should edit
the po/es/ogog.po file, adding the translations to the empty strings. It's
standard gettext-format, so there might even be tools for it...

You will be able to checkout OgOg from:
https://logilogi.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/logilogi/projects/ogog/trunk

> > Also the UI was improved a bit, and memory-usage reduced... We are
> > still having a small memory-leak in OgOg though...
> 
> I like a lot the UI improvements.

Great. Any specific comments or problems left ?

> > ~ Bruno's Logo ~
> >
> > > It's just a quick scratch, but it could get better.
> > > How do you all like it? ;)
>
> > I like it, but the font maybe could become Verdana. Also the L's
> > might be moved a bit closer to eachother...
> >
> > Nice initiative!
>
> I'll work on it.

Ok.

> > ~ The Grant ~
> >
> > Tomorrow I will be going to Amsterdam to have a take-in meeting
> > about our grant-proposal. It is not yet certain though that Manta
> > will receive the grant...
>
> Good luck man! keep us up to the news!

It went quite well to be honest! We're the top project on the reserve-
list and in most last rounds at least one project was dropped from the
main list... We had a great conversation, and they liked Manta and the
ideas behind it...

So there is a chance that manta will be subsidized...

In 3 weeks we will hear it more definitively...

Also Andrew there might be some place for you too, on the team.

greetings,

Wybo

sorry :p

On 7/17/07, Miguel Lezama <le...@gm...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Pay Online
>
> Invoice Number [191809]
>
> # Credit Card Payment Successfully Processed. Your approval code is
> 213010.
>
>
>
> On 7/17/07, Bruno Sarlo <bru...@gm...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
> > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
> > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
> > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/
> > _______________________________________________
> > LogiLogi-list mailing list
> > Log...@li... e.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Miguel Lezama




-- 
Miguel Lezama

sorry about the previous html mail.

On 7/16/07, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> Andrews link-order used to be:
>
> <logi_id>=Plato,history,GroningenUniversity
> <logi_id>=Plato,history
> <logi_id>=Plato
>
> Now for adding the other bells and whistles, like language, mode &
> stance, tag-type, and logi-versions...:
>
> Simple logi-perma-link:
>
> <logi_id>
>
> Where logi_id is now =i<logi-nr>, and could become
> <user_name>_<post_nr>, so as example: john_kennedy_12
>
> Now with version:
>
> <logi_id>=v<logi_version>
>
> As example: john_kennedy_12=v3
>
> Link to logi with context:
>
> <logi_id>~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity
>
> Link to menu:
>
> menu~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity
>
> Link to logi, to Plato's menu, with context:
>
> john_kennedy_12~menu~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity
>
> Link with a language:
>
> @en~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity
>
> Link with a mode:
>
> Plato,history,GroningenUniversity$mode=transclude
>
> Link with a stance:
>
> Plato,history,GroningenUniversity$stance=questions
>
> And the whole lot combined:
>
> john_kennedy_12=v3@en~menu~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity$mode=transclude$stance=questions
>
> Which was (with <user_name>_<post_id>):
>
> GroningenUniversity/history/Plato~menu@en=john_kennedy_12=v3$mode=transclude$stance=questions
>
> To be honest it takes quite a switch, but Andrews is more consistent
> with the order of importantce of the bits of the link in the request...
>
> There is a small issue though with the directory-analogy-derived
> navigation bits. Currently when one is editing:
>
> GroningenUniversity/history/Socrates=john_kennedy_15
>
> And one then adds a link inside the body, lets say to Aristotle, this
> link becomes: GroningenUniversity/history/Aristotle, adding the edit-
> context in front... And here one used to be able to point the link to
> /Aristotle, or to ../Aristotle to end up with Aristotle, resp
> GroningenUniversity/Aristotle, just like one would in a shell.
>
> These navigation-structures can be replaced by something in the link-
> adding UI, like showing the context-tags, and making them removable
> by clicking.
>
> And for quickly adding links in the running text, we should have to
> look at something else, like appending a comma for leaving out the
> context, or something like that...
>
> Anyway, what do you people think of this link-structure ?
>
I have some questions:
Are all this functions like mode and stance, and ~menu available at
logilogi urls?

Excuse me if this is a dumb question, but I would like to know what's
the reason we dont use a common delimiter for variables and then set
tuples of variable=value? something like this:
&id=john_kennedy_12&v=3&lang=en&menu=true&tags=Plato,history,GroningenUniversity&mode=transclude&stance=questions

> Pragmatically speaking I won't be able to implement this in the
> remaining two and a half days before I go on holiday, so I will not
> start with it, in order not to break the trunk. Andrew if you are
> going to commit your code in the coming 3 weeks, you can first use
> the current link-structure in the url-bar, and only add the link-
> tags in reverse order to the UI.
>
> greetings,
> and comments very welcome,
>

Hope to talk before you go on holiday... what are you planning to do? travel?

> Wybo
>

-- 
Bruno

sorry about the previous html mail.

On 7/16/07, Wybo Wiersma <wy...@lo...> wrote:
> Andrews link-order used to be:
>
> <logi_id>=Plato,history,GroningenUniversity
> <logi_id>=Plato,history
> <logi_id>=Plato
>
> Now for adding the other bells and whistles, like language, mode &
> stance, tag-type, and logi-versions...:
>
> Simple logi-perma-link:
>
> <logi_id>
>
> Where logi_id is now =i<logi-nr>, and could become
> <user_name>_<post_nr>, so as example: john_kennedy_12
>
> Now with version:
>
> <logi_id>=v<logi_version>
>
> As example: john_kennedy_12=v3
>
> Link to logi with context:
>
> <logi_id>~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity
>
> Link to menu:
>
> menu~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity
>
> Link to logi, to Plato's menu, with context:
>
> john_kennedy_12~menu~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity
>
> Link with a language:
>
> @en~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity
>
> Link with a mode:
>
> Plato,history,GroningenUniversity$mode=transclude
>
> Link with a stance:
>
> Plato,history,GroningenUniversity$stance=questions
>
> And the whole lot combined:
>
> john_kennedy_12=v3@en~menu~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity$mode=transclude$stance=questions
>
> Which was (with <user_name>_<post_id>):
>
> GroningenUniversity/history/Plato~menu@en=john_kennedy_12=v3$mode=transclude$stance=questions
>
> To be honest it takes quite a switch, but Andrews is more consistent
> with the order of importantce of the bits of the link in the request...
>
> There is a small issue though with the directory-analogy-derived
> navigation bits. Currently when one is editing:
>
> GroningenUniversity/history/Socrates=john_kennedy_15
>
> And one then adds a link inside the body, lets say to Aristotle, this
> link becomes: GroningenUniversity/history/Aristotle, adding the edit-
> context in front... And here one used to be able to point the link to
> /Aristotle, or to ../Aristotle to end up with Aristotle, resp
> GroningenUniversity/Aristotle, just like one would in a shell.
>
> These navigation-structures can be replaced by something in the link-
> adding UI, like showing the context-tags, and making them removable
> by clicking.
>
> And for quickly adding links in the running text, we should have to
> look at something else, like appending a comma for leaving out the
> context, or something like that...
>
> Anyway, what do you people think of this link-structure ?
>
I have some questions:
Are all this functions like mode and stance, and ~menu available at
logilogi urls?

Excuse me if this is a dumb question, but I would like to know what's
the reason we dont use a common delimiter for variables and then set
tuples of variable=value? something like this:
&id=john_kennedy_12&v=3&lang=en&menu=true&tags=Plato,history,GroningenUniversity&mode=transclude&stance=questions

> Pragmatically speaking I won't be able to implement this in the
> remaining two and a half days before I go on holiday, so I will not
> start with it, in order not to break the trunk. Andrew if you are
> going to commit your code in the coming 3 weeks, you can first use
> the current link-structure in the url-bar, and only add the link-
> tags in reverse order to the UI.
>
> greetings,
> and comments very welcome,
>

Hope to talk before you go on holiday... what are you planning to do? travel?

> Wybo
>

-- 
Bruno

Pay Online

Invoice Number [191809]

# Credit Card Payment Successfully Processed. Your approval code is 213010.



On 7/17/07, Bruno Sarlo <bru...@gm...> wrote:
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/
> _______________________________________________
> LogiLogi-list mailing list
> Log...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/logilogi-list
>
>


-- 
Miguel Lezama

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aUxvZ2ktbGlzdCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKPiBMb2dpTG9naS1saXN0QGxpc3RzLnNvdXJjZWZvcmdl
Lm5ldAo+IGh0dHBzOi8vbGlzdHMuc291cmNlZm9yZ2UubmV0L2xpc3RzL2xpc3RpbmZvL2xvZ2ls
b2dpLWxpc3QKPgoKCgotLSAKQnJ1bm8K

Andrews link-order used to be:

<logi_id>=Plato,history,GroningenUniversity
<logi_id>=Plato,history
<logi_id>=Plato

Now for adding the other bells and whistles, like language, mode &
stance, tag-type, and logi-versions...:

Simple logi-perma-link:

<logi_id>

Where logi_id is now =i<logi-nr>, and could become
<user_name>_<post_nr>, so as example: john_kennedy_12

Now with version:

<logi_id>=v<logi_version>

As example: john_kennedy_12=v3

Link to logi with context:

<logi_id>~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity

Link to menu:

menu~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity

Link to logi, to Plato's menu, with context:

john_kennedy_12~menu~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity

Link with a language:

@en~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity

Link with a mode:

Plato,history,GroningenUniversity$mode=transclude

Link with a stance:

Plato,history,GroningenUniversity$stance=questions

And the whole lot combined:

john_kennedy_12=v3@en~menu~Plato,history,GroningenUniversity$mode=transclude$stance=questions

Which was (with <user_name>_<post_id>):

GroningenUniversity/history/Plato~menu@en=john_kennedy_12=v3$mode=transclude$stance=questions

To be honest it takes quite a switch, but Andrews is more consistent
with the order of importantce of the bits of the link in the request...

There is a small issue though with the directory-analogy-derived
navigation bits. Currently when one is editing:

GroningenUniversity/history/Socrates=john_kennedy_15

And one then adds a link inside the body, lets say to Aristotle, this
link becomes: GroningenUniversity/history/Aristotle, adding the edit-
context in front... And here one used to be able to point the link to
/Aristotle, or to ../Aristotle to end up with Aristotle, resp
GroningenUniversity/Aristotle, just like one would in a shell.

These navigation-structures can be replaced by something in the link-
adding UI, like showing the context-tags, and making them removable
by clicking.

And for quickly adding links in the running text, we should have to
look at something else, like appending a comma for leaving out the
context, or something like that...

Anyway, what do you people think of this link-structure ?

Pragmatically speaking I won't be able to implement this in the
remaining two and a half days before I go on holiday, so I will not
start with it, in order not to break the trunk. Andrew if you are
going to commit your code in the coming 3 weeks, you can first use
the current link-structure in the url-bar, and only add the link-
tags in reverse order to the UI.

greetings,
and comments very welcome,

Wybo