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Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

April 19, 2023

This article was contributed by Jeremiah Quin

Vanilla OS, a lightweight, immutable operating system designed for developers and advanced users, has been using Ubuntu as its base. However, a recent announcement has revealed that in the upcoming Vanilla OS 2.0 Orchid release the project will be shifting to Debian unstable (Sid) as its new base operating system. Vanilla OS is making the switch due to Ubuntu's changes to its version of the GNOME desktop environment along with the distribution's reliance on the Snap packaging format. The decision has generated a fair amount of interest and discussion within the open-source community.

Other distributions have explored making a similar switch; for example, Linux Mint, as Hacker News user "pyrophane" pointed out in a comment on the Vanilla OS announcement. The Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE) was created "to ensure Linux Mint can continue to deliver the same user experience if Ubuntu was ever to disappear".

GNOME's customization by Ubuntu

The Vanilla OS announcement indicated that the decision to shift from Ubuntu to Debian Sid was driven in part by the desire to provide an unmodified experience for users. "Ubuntu provides a modified version of the GNOME desktop, that does not match how GNOME envisions its desktop." Debian is much closer to a vanilla GNOME experience because it provides the software without any major customization.

GNOME is designed to provide a consistent user experience across different Linux distributions. However, Ubuntu's modifications to the GNOME desktop often diverge from the upstream GNOME project's vision, leading to inconsistencies and compatibility issues with GNOME applications. This issue, that still persists today, was present as far back as 2020, when GNOME Designer, Tobias Bernard, noted the difficulties in dealing with Ubuntu:

This category also includes distributions overriding upstream decisions around system UX, as well as theming/branding issues, due to problematic downstream incentives. This means there is no clear platform visual identity developers can target.

For example, Ubuntu 18.04 (the current LTS) ships with GNOME 3.28 (from March 2018), includes significant changes to system UX and APIs (e.g. Unity-style dock, desktop icons, systray extension), and ships a branded stylesheet that breaks even in core applications.

Ubuntu's focus on Snap

One of the primary concerns cited in the announcement was the problems associated with Snap. Back in 2020, Linux Mint dropped Snaps, citing a number of problems with the format and its required connection to the Ubuntu Store. When Ubuntu decided to stop shipping Flatpak by default earlier this year, user "rtklutts" on Slashdot listed numerous problems they see with Snaps:

There are so many well documented cases where Snaps suck. Let me cover some of them here. Slow start up. No ability to control when updates happen.. i.e. forced updates that you can only delay. No ability to control what gets pulled in with the application. Many apps with same dependencies bringing in multiple copies of the same dependencies. Maker of an app has too much control over the environment on your PC. Theming doesn't apply correctly to Snap applications.

A few of these issues have also caught the eye of the developers at Vanilla OS. "Based on our testing and many sources online, there are a lot of issues that Snap hasn't addressed currently, like slow startups, centralization, etc." Canonical controls the official Snap store, and all Snaps must be approved by Canonical to be distributed through it, centralizing control. That may be a concern for Vanilla OS, since that control over the Snap store could lead to an abuse of power.

Security and stability

As the unstable version of Debian, Sid's purpose is to be a test dummy for the distribution. That, coupled with its continuously updated model, places question marks over its stability and security for users. The Debian project warns about using the distribution:

Please note that security updates for unstable distribution are not managed by the security team. Hence, unstable does not get security updates in a timely manner. [...]

"sid" is subject to massive changes and in-place library updates. This can result in a very "unstable" system that contains packages that cannot be installed due to missing libraries, dependencies that cannot be fulfilled etc. Use it at your own risk!

Even though Debian warns against it, some users think its worth the risk and that the potential drawbacks aren't as bad as they are made out to be. In a Hacker News discussion about Vanilla's switch, user "tlamponi" compared the risks to those of Arch Linux:

I know the Debian project recommends against promoting the unstable Sid release for general (non-dev/maintainer) users, but IMO about as risky as running Arch Linux, i.e., quite safe. Debian Sid is the main initial entry point for new packages and so a rolling release which only pauses for a bit once every two years during the freeze for the stable releases.

Compared to Arch Linux it has a few advantages, like e.g., it actually cares about recording exact and sane versioned break/depends/conflicts so upgrading a system after year(s) will work out just fine without getting ones hand dirty. Further they track and install the kernel under a correctly ABI versioned path, so you can pull an upgrade with a new kernel and then still load a module from the currently booted kernel just fine, no reboot required, same for libraries. I mean I like Arch Linux, don't get me wrong it's my second favorite distro for sure, but having to immediately reboot after most updates as otherwise half the programs or kernel functionality is unavailable is a bit of a nuisance.

To address the concerns, however, the Vanilla OS developers have said that the distribution will limit the number of packages that it ships directly to the user to decrease the overall footprint of the system. Vanilla OS developers will keep up with Debian's security advisories to ensure that the base system remains secure. But they will only be testing the base image that is officially supported, where there are fewer potential sources of instability.

However, it is important to note that this limitation may be problematic for users who wish to install software outside of the core packages that Vanilla OS provides. Users will be left to their own devices for ensuring both security and system stability with regards to those packages.

While we don't know exactly which core packages will come with Vanilla's 2.0 Orchid release, we do know that they will be kept to the bare minimum, as noted in the announcement. This is not too dissimilar to its current version, which David Delony from MakeUseOf, reported on earlier this year:

The Vanilla OS desktop uses the regular GNOME 3 desktop environment. It comes with the default set of GNOME apps and not much else. This means you'll have to rely on the package manager, but Vanilla OS is hardly unusual among Linux distros for that.

Vanilla OS doesn't even come with an office suite. If you need to do word processing or spreadsheets, you'll have to install something like LibreOffice. Fortunately, it's easy to add new packages despite Vanilla OS's unorthodox architecture.

Before installing software like LibreOffice from the Sid repositories, users will now have to consider whether it will introduce instabilities or security vulnerabilities to their system, since it is not being tested (or updated) by Vanilla OS. While users are still free to install whatever they want, the knowledge of the risk it could bring may impose limitations on what users will want to install on top of the base image.

Conclusion

While Debian offers more "vanilla" experience and gives users the freedom of choice that the Vanilla OS project values, it also comes with potential instability and compatibility issues. Even though those concerns may be alarming, the project will be keeping an eye on them and has expressed a willingness to change distributions in the future. "If we run into stability and security issues down the line, then we will reconsider our decision." We will have to wait and see how this transition impacts the Vanilla OS community and the future growth of the distribution.


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to post comments

Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

Posted Apr 19, 2023 20:34 UTC (Wed) by jhoblitt (subscriber, #77733) [Link] (1 responses)

Using OCI images for updates is a really interesting idea and I've wondered why this hasn't been done. It will be interesting to see how that works out.

Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

Posted Apr 20, 2023 14:05 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

> Using OCI images for updates is a really interesting idea and I've wondered why this hasn't been done.

It has been done. Fedora does this

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/OstreeNativeContai...

Derivatives are using this as well

https://github.com/ublue-os

Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

Posted Apr 19, 2023 23:48 UTC (Wed) by edeloget (subscriber, #88392) [Link] (7 responses)

Frankly, I like Ubuntu. I've used it for the past 10 to 12 years at home on my main PC, and we install it by default at our office (users are free to request another OS, but we mainly manage Ubuntu, so other distributions users must make sure thay can still work with their computer).

But that snap thing? Ouch. The fact that we do not control the update and that we cannot rebuild snaps to match our purpose made us move and we're slowly but surely phasing out the distribution on both our working systems (when the update time comes, we simply shift to Debian) and our infrastructure (where we're currently testing both Arch and Debian). I fully understand that apt is not a perfect package mechanism but it used to work quite well in our situation. Snap is a disaster in our situation (a snap for lxd? really? not to mention the snap gnome calc, or the atrocious firefox snap which is perpetually late and have about 50 registered bug about snap -- one which was related to how font-faces are loaded that seriously bit our hands), and every single Canonical representative I talked to just seems to acknowledge that there is a problem, that their customers are really not happy, but hey, life is life and the snap show must go on, doesn't it?

So I fully support Vanilla OS on this one. Ubuntu is still a good distro, but they really need to either rethink or remove snap.

Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

Posted Apr 20, 2023 0:57 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (2 responses)

I remember the firefox snap font problem, which only happened on PDFs. It was fixed within weeks of my reporting it. I haven't seen other firefox snap bugs lately. According to canonical, the push to package firefox as a snap came from firefox upstream.

Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

Posted Apr 20, 2023 8:32 UTC (Thu) by edeloget (subscriber, #88392) [Link] (1 responses)

Unfortunately, it does not only happen on PDF. Specifically, we were hitting https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1760996, where local fonts were not loaded.

For reference, there is, as of today, 70 open bugs in 'snap' tracking issue (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1665641). Some of them are not confirmed yet but some of them has been marked as 'new' for 2 years (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1734371 also broke our development flow, as some of our internal web servers are talking to HSMs through PKCS#11 to identify the users).

Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

Posted Apr 20, 2023 9:48 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]

Looks related, but in the case of pdfs, it wasn't even loading system fonts (bug report).

deb packages of firefox were still available via this ppa. You need to do some other stuff to disable the snap and enable updating of the ppa version.

Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

Posted Apr 20, 2023 9:37 UTC (Thu) by faramir (subscriber, #2327) [Link] (3 responses)

Upon learning that lxd was a snap (with all the drawbacks), I stopped being interested in it. Who would want to have their fleet of virtual "machines" randomly break because of an unstoppable update?

Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

Posted Apr 20, 2023 13:41 UTC (Thu) by edeloget (subscriber, #88392) [Link] (1 responses)

> Upon learning that lxd was a snap (with all the drawbacks), I stopped being interested in it. Who would want to have their fleet of virtual "machines" randomly break because of an unstoppable update?

This is exactly what initially motivated our migration : either we had to use the severaly out of date .deb version or we had to use the snap version on which we add no control. This go even farther than having to deal with impromptu, unstoppable updates: you also have to make sure that it /can/ update -- otherwise the thing just... break.

Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

Posted Apr 23, 2023 12:03 UTC (Sun) by cquike (subscriber, #107549) [Link]

FYI: Debian testing ships now a modern version of lxd via apt
https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/lxd

Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

Posted Apr 21, 2023 18:56 UTC (Fri) by sdeziel (subscriber, #152441) [Link]

You can hold off on snap auto-updates with `snap refresh --hold`. For all the details, see https://snapcraft.io/blog/hold-your-horses-i-mean-snaps-n...

Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

Posted Apr 20, 2023 10:26 UTC (Thu) by taladar (subscriber, #68407) [Link] (2 responses)

In my experience sid is less a distro meant for use and more a staging area in the Debian process. I highly doubt it is a good basis for other distros to build on since it often contains packages that are plain unfinished (as in the Debian packaging still needs work or packages that should be used together are not fully packaged the new versions meant to work together).

Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

Posted Apr 20, 2023 12:52 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Isn't it the case that Ubuntu itself is based on sid? That's what the Wikipedia article on Ubuntu says.

Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

Posted Apr 21, 2023 6:28 UTC (Fri) by gspr (subscriber, #91542) [Link]

"Plainly unfinished" stuff tends to go to Experimental these days. The exception is perhaps packages uploaded to Unstable accompanied by a release-critical bug, filed to stop migration to Testing (= next Stable). The latter usually isn't because the package is "unfinished", but more often because it's a version that isn't fit for long-term maintenance (which might, of course, be an issue for downstream distros basing on Unstable).

Vanilla OS shifting from Ubuntu to Debian

Posted Apr 20, 2023 12:02 UTC (Thu) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

The whole thing is that using a normal distro do not prevent the user to install software via snap/flatpack or whatever.
What Ubuntu does is removing the option of installing the distro package. This is a net negative to the user.


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