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Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

By Jake Edge
June 30, 2021

A new project from Mozilla, which is meant to help researchers collect browsing data, but only with the informed consent of the browser-user, is taking a lot of heat, perhaps in part because the company can never seem to do anything right, at least in the eyes of some. Mozilla Rally was announced on June 25 as joint venture between the company and researchers at Princeton University "to enable crowdsourced science for public good". The idea is that users can volunteer to give academic studies access to the same kinds of browser data that is being tracked in some browsers today. Whether the privacy safeguards are strong enough—and if there is sufficient reason for users to sign up—remains to be seen.

Studies

The underlying theme of being able to control who is able to access your data, coupled with using it for the "public good", may well resonate with some people. The initial study that is available for participation by Rally users is "Political and COVID-19 News". It is being run by Princeton University’s Center for Information Technology Policy under the auspices of professor Jonathan Mayer, who also helped develop the Rally platform. The goals of the study are interesting and any conclusions that it draws could potentially be quite helpful for fighting the problems of misinformation on the net:

This study will help us understand how web users encounter, consume, and share news online about politics and COVID-19. There are a variety of sources for information on these topics: some authoritative and trustworthy, and some not. We hope the study can inform efforts to help users distinguish trustworthy and untrustworthy content.

As might be expected for a Mozilla project, Rally is integrated with the Firefox browser; it is an optional add-on that can easily be installed from a button on the Rally home page. Doing so brings up a list of various permissions the add-on needs in order to function, which can be reviewed in the "about:addons" page after it is installed. There is also an extensive privacy policy that must be agreed to; it outlines the kinds of data that can be collected (which includes things like geographic location, demographic information, and the hardware/software platform), how it can be used, and who it can be shared with. The policy outlines the big picture, while each individual study will further narrow down its data needs and plans.

Rally is only available to Firefox users in the US who are at least 19 years of age. Neither the age nor location requirements are enforced in any obvious way; no problem was encountered installing the add-on from a non-US location. There is a page that asks for demographic information (age, gender, race, education, income, and US zip code), but it is optional. It may be that certain studies will not use any data shared without corresponding demographic information, however.

The announcement talks about academic studies, mentioning the COVID-19 study and an upcoming "Beyond the Paywall" study in conjunction with the Stanford University Graduate School of Business. The latter sounds like it could also be useful, especially to newspapers, magazines, and internet news outlets:

It aims to better understand news consumption, what people value in news and the economics that could build a more sustainable ecosystem for newspapers in the online marketplace.

Beyond those two academic studies, the Rally team has its own "Your Time Online and 'Doomscrolling'" study that is currently running. It is meant to better understand "how our community browses the internet, and how these browsing dynamics differ across segments of people". The description of the kinds of information that will be gathered and what might be done with it are particularly concerning from a privacy perspective, however. In truth, those who are highly privacy-conscious are likely to find much that is worrisome in the descriptions of both of the current studies.

The study descriptions do try to allay some of the fears that potential volunteers might have, though. The "How We Protect You" section in the information pages of the studies is meant to clarify what is being done with the data and the protections being placed on it. The "How Rally Works" page is also geared toward reassuring the privacy-conscious user. By the sounds, Rally is taking extraordinary care; it is only collecting what it needs (and has specified), is encrypting the data from the browser all the way to an offline analysis environment, and is limiting access to the data to only those who are working on the study.

On the other hand, the Rally add-on can run in private-browsing windows, which was not apparent when it was being installed. The two current studies explicitly state that they will not collect data from private-browsing sessions, which leaves open the possibility that others will collect that data down the road. That may also be of concern to the privacy-conscious, though, of course, anyone using the private-browsing feature is pretty obviously conscious of their privacy to some extent.

In general, though, Rally is protecting its data far more carefully than the advertising networks and other user-tracking organizations are doing with their data. Many who have commented about the project, here and at other sites, seem to mistrust Mozilla's commitment to privacy and some see Rally as a mechanism for the company to generate income. Research organizations might be willing to pay for the privilege of using the platform, but it does not seem likely to be a huge income stream, especially once Rally rolls out on other browsers (as is mentioned in the FAQs and elsewhere).

Filling in details

One question might be: why would anyone want to sign up? Those who are privacy-conscious may well not be interested in allowing any access to their data, while those who are not seem rather unlikely to go out of their way to install the add-on—if they are even using Firefox at all. It essentially comes down to the whole "research for the public good" theme and whether people will care enough to forgo some of their privacy—and enough of them will be willing to install an add-on no matter their privacy inclinations—to foster it.

Over at Hacker News, Mayer has been commenting to try to answer some of the questions and concerns posted in a thread about the announcement. The "why?" question came up there, and Mayer tried to clarify what he and others are after:

The motivation is enabling crowdsourced scientific research that benefits society. [...] There are many research questions at the intersection of technology and society where conventional methods like web crawls, surveys, and social media feeds aren't sufficient. That's especially true for platform accountability research; the major platforms have generally refused to facilitate independent research that might identify problems, and platform problems often involve targeting and personalization that other methods can't meaningfully examine.

One area in particular that might be of interest to potential volunteers is in this area of "platform accountability". The large, social media platforms have often come under scrutiny for their behavior—and its effect on users—but there is no way to gather data on that except from within the browsers of users of those sites. As with many other commenters, "Yaina" lamented that the announcement did not specify the problem being solved very well. Yaina noted that the big internet companies can already do these kinds of studies, but that others are left out:

This is a luxury many researchers that work outside of these big tech companies don't have, which creates a scientific power imbalance. Mozilla Rally is meant to give these capabilities to everyone, and the platform is meant to ensure that you always know what you sign up for and what data is being used.

If I understand the Princeton example correctly: They want to figure out how people consume and spread misinformation. Social networks like Facebook have all that data but won't share it. Now you can opt-in to a Rally study where independent researchers can examine the data.

Mayer largely agreed with that characterization, though the imbalance is more far-reaching:

The power imbalance goes far beyond science. Independent research is foundational for platform accountability. An example: when I was working on the Senate staff, before I started teaching at Princeton, a recurring challenge was the lack of rigorous independent research on platform problems. We were mostly compelled to rely on anecdotes, which made oversight and building a factual record for legislation difficult.

There is, of course, something of a self-selection bias at work among Rally users. If all of the participants have to know about the project, believe in its goals, and be willing to donate their data even though it reduces their privacy to a certain extent, they may well not reflect a cross-section of the browser-using public. Mayer addressed that issue as well:

The Rally participant population is not representative of the U.S. population—these are users who run Firefox (other browsers coming soon), choose to join Rally, and choose to join a study. In research jargon, there's significant sampling bias.

For some studies, that's OK, because the research doesn't depend on a representative sample. For other studies, researchers can approximate U.S. population demographics. When a user joins Rally, they can optionally provide demographic information. Researchers can then use the demographics with reweighting, matching, subsampling, and similar methods to approximate a representative population. Those methods already appear throughout social science; whether they're sufficient also depends on the study.

Part of the difficulty in the messaging around a project like Rally is all of the moving parts it has and that different kinds of users are going to need different areas of emphasis in order to really make it clear for them. It is a project that sits at a particularly uncomfortable intersection of concerns—or the lack thereof. The lack of any real tangible benefit from joining up is problematic as well. "For the good of society" has a nice ring to it, but it is terribly difficult to quantify.

If Mozilla were a different kind of company, one could imagine it gathering this kind of information without any kind of uproar from the social-network-using folks who seem utterly unconcerned with the massive privacy invasions those kinds of sites routinely perform. But Mozilla is not that kind of organization, so it needs to convince those who do not really seem to care about privacy much to care enough to install the add-on, while not excessively irritating the more tech-savvy users who get up in arms about even the smallest loss of private data. It is a hard balance to find.

Given all that, it is a little hard to see Rally being a huge success. There are certainly perfectly reasonable concerns about gathering this kind of data, storing it, dealing with governments that want access to it, and so on. The privacy-savvy may well skip over Rally for its real or perceived shortcomings, while the vast majority of folks may either never hear of it or pay it no attention whatsoever. That is somewhat sad, perhaps, at least to those who can see value in the kinds of studies (and platform oversight) that Rally data-gathering would enable. It will be interesting to see what comes of it.


Index entries for this article
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to post comments

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jun 30, 2021 23:38 UTC (Wed) by sub2LWN (subscriber, #134200) [Link] (5 responses)

A lot of my web traffic, especially to untrusted sites such as newsfeeds, is increasingly being done via cURL with helper scripts to turn HTML/XML into text and so on (similar to command-line browsers such as Lynx). Feature creep in browsers, and more web tracking approaches than I care to learn about, discourages leaving a browser window open and using it to explore the web.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 1, 2021 0:18 UTC (Thu) by Paf (subscriber, #91811) [Link] (2 responses)

I think this leaves you fairly far removed from most of the information channels used by most folks today.

This may be fine, but it is a really big ask for most people.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 1, 2021 0:29 UTC (Thu) by sub2LWN (subscriber, #134200) [Link] (1 responses)

Does it though? A lot of sites have accessible versions of their content. I can pull in more articles than I'd ever click on, and feed them into local indices, grep through them, compare vocabularies, etc. without being bombarded by ads, video pop-ups, and other embeds.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 1, 2021 3:59 UTC (Thu) by gwolf (subscriber, #14632) [Link]

Right, I do roughly the same. But I guess you and I count more as statistical noise than as juicy data when it comes to user behavior modeling.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 1, 2021 4:37 UTC (Thu) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (1 responses)

That sounds like you're reinventing RSS/Atom the hard way. FWIW most feed readers have an option to get output from a command instead of a remote URL, and there's a cottage industry for site-specific data extractors.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 1, 2021 5:01 UTC (Thu) by sub2LWN (subscriber, #134200) [Link]

When a site has RSS that's certainly an easy URL to add, but some feeds are poorly structured and only link to the actual articles (or embed lots of the same things which would be on the HTML version, such as images and videos). Sometimes the feeds a site offers are hosted on 3rd party syndication services, which I also find non-ideal. Having a hodgepodge of scripts means whether a site has XML, JSON, text files, or regular HTML it can be "assimilated", to be Borgish about it. :-) It also lets me throttle requests to each site individually so it's not any more burdensome on their HTTPDs than if I were using a slow featureful browser to navigate (and a lot fewer image and CSS requests! The actual compressed text content of most sites is quite small.).

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 1, 2021 9:31 UTC (Thu) by mtu (guest, #144375) [Link] (14 responses)

Users: "Bad actors are collecting my data left, right and center. I wish my browser would prevent that."

Mozilla: "Tell you what: You can now make our browser give your data to _other_ actors who won't abuse or lose your data, pinky promise!"

Users: ?!

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 1, 2021 16:18 UTC (Thu) by ale2018 (subscriber, #128727) [Link] (13 responses)

User: If the "public good" can be measured in bucks, why don't you pay me for my data?

For example, Italian people never liked to let the revenue know their data. The revenue set up a "cashback" scheme, paying people to use electronic (traceable) payments. It lasted some months.

Won't the industry do the same?

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 2, 2021 23:50 UTC (Fri) by notriddle (subscriber, #130608) [Link] (12 responses)

> User: If the "public good" can be measured in bucks, why don't you pay me for my data?

If.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 7:41 UTC (Sat) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (7 responses)

Perhaps the biggest lie in the advertising industry is the marketers' insistence that there was ever any real value being produced by it. It's an enormous bramble patch of bullshit jobs all the way to the bottom, and that includes controlled opposition feel-good campaigns like the one announced here.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 8:09 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (3 responses)

???

Plenty of products would be impossible without some form of marketing.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 9:17 UTC (Sat) by mbg (subscriber, #4940) [Link] (2 responses)

Can you name some that I will like?

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 12:26 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

I've no idea what do you like.

I myself got a couple of items from ads that turned out to be super useful (for me). The first one is a treadmill desk and the second one is an inflatable outdoor hot tub. In both cases I haven't even known that such things exist in the first place.

From more IT-related stuff: Wave Broadband fiber, Mikrotik routers and so on.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 23:23 UTC (Sat) by mbg (subscriber, #4940) [Link]

I don't think the fact that you found out about some products via ads implies that these things would be "impossible" without them.

I find out about new things from sites like LWN and c't magazine, both of which I pay for -- in part so I can stay informed about new stuff I might like.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 10:22 UTC (Sat) by ale2018 (subscriber, #128727) [Link] (2 responses)

As a matter of facts, goods not sustained by active campaigns sell less and less and eventually disappear from the shelves. Describing it as an enormous bramble patch of bullshit jobs renders the concept pretty well. However, the fact remains that advertising is an essential component. That stood long before the Internet came.

Henry Ford once said, “A man who stops advertising to save money is like a man who stops a clock to save time.” The Internet appeared to marketers as the holy grail; it seems to be possible to reach millions consumers with targeted ads at almost no costs. The biggest lie appears to be this one. A cost exists, albeit it's not currently being paid by the issuers.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 18:47 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

I think dog-food manufacturers did an experiment once. They all agreed to stop advertising, and it had no impact whatsoever on sales. Then one broke ranks and started advertising again, and as a result started stealing market share, so they all started advertising again.

So, in some markets at least, it seems a given that the purpose of advertising is not to increase overall sales, but to maintain or increase your share of them.

In other markets, I'm sure advertising does increase product awareness, and hence market size, but it might well be difficult to distinguish between the two different types of market ...

Cheers,
Wol

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 19:54 UTC (Sat) by notriddle (subscriber, #130608) [Link]

Do you have any documented evidence that this happened?

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 17:11 UTC (Sat) by mmirate (guest, #143985) [Link] (3 responses)

If you fail to negotiate a mutually beneficial price for something, then that is because either it is not worth to you what it costs to make it available to you, or you want to enslave somebody to make it for you. The latter is unethical and thus should be eliminated from consideration. Hence we can conclude: if something is valuable to you at all, you will pay _something_ for it.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 4, 2021 9:45 UTC (Sun) by ale2018 (subscriber, #128727) [Link]

> if something is valuable to you at all, you will pay _something_ for it.

Not always. If payment is optional, wise guys may skip it. For example, several people use free software, which may be very valuable to them, and don't contribute any donation.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 6, 2021 4:46 UTC (Tue) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link]

That something may not be measured in dollars, however. I do have a few friends...

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 6, 2021 12:01 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

... or because the other party in the negotiation has so much more negotiating power that it won't listen to your attempts to negotiate at all, but just demands payment or else. (And, sometimes, demands payment *whether or not any goods are provided*: though this *is* illegal, it happens all the time, and marketing-led dark patterns that force people into paying for subscription services they don't want and don't use are one attempt to make this legal).

This is by far the common case. Even market traders usually don't have time to haggle with everyone. Everyone bigger than a market trader, selling anything smaller than a house, is usually going to tell you to sod off, they'd rather serve someone else, if you try to negotiate with them. And there isn't even a way to negotiate with online sellers unless they let you (which essentially none do).

This covers the vast majority of transactions normal humans carry out. Stock or real-estate traders, less so, but those are a tiny specialized bubble with their own rules which do not apply to the larger society around them.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 1, 2021 12:17 UTC (Thu) by mmirate (guest, #143985) [Link] (31 responses)

> If I understand the Princeton example correctly: They want to figure out how people consume and spread misinformation. Social networks like Facebook have all that data but won't share it.

Who defines "misinformation"?

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 1, 2021 12:22 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (30 responses)

>> If I understand the Princeton example correctly: They want to figure out how people consume and spread misinformation. Social networks like Facebook have all that data but won't share it.

>Who defines "misinformation"?

In the case of Facebook, it is detailed here -> https://www.facebook.com/journalismproject/programs/third...

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 2, 2021 9:18 UTC (Fri) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link] (28 responses)

Facebook moderation is a joke. They are much more heavy handed with left wing groups than with right wing groups.

In Italy there was a recent case where some scammers cloned a famous page, and FB wouldn't delete it because it respected the community standards.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 2, 2021 9:58 UTC (Fri) by fenncruz (subscriber, #81417) [Link] (27 responses)

I agree that the moderation is a joke. Though don't the right complain that Facebook moderates them more than the left? Seems Facebook us able to annoy both sides. Perhaps that's their goal for World peace, unite everyone with thier hated of Facebook?

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 2, 2021 12:05 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (26 responses)

> Though don't the right complain that Facebook moderates them more than the left? Seems Facebook us able to annoy both sides.

The right _complains_ a lot more, but the data (including FB's internal documents that have come out as a result of leaks and legal actions) show that left-leaning stuff has historically moderated more, in part due to the right's much more voluminous (and coordinated!) complaints.

Now over the past year or so that has changed somewhat, but only because the right has intentionally encouraged anti-vax and anti-democratic movements that have resulted in substantial real-world harm and violence.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 2, 2021 12:35 UTC (Fri) by mmirate (guest, #143985) [Link] (25 responses)

> real-world harm

See, *that* is the kind of assertion that makes me wary of there being a Ministry of Truth.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 2, 2021 13:00 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (24 responses)

> See, *that* is the kind of assertion that makes me wary of there being a Ministry of Truth.

Sure, and the events of January 6th in the US Capitol was just another day of tourists sightseeing peacefully.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 2, 2021 13:10 UTC (Fri) by mmirate (guest, #143985) [Link] (6 responses)

And the actual damages were far less than some of the numerous BLM riots from months prior.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 2, 2021 13:52 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (5 responses)

> And the actual damages were far less than some of the numerous BLM riots from months prior.

Remind us again how BLM tried to overthrow a democratically elected government?

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 2, 2021 13:55 UTC (Fri) by mmirate (guest, #143985) [Link] (4 responses)

How about you remind us how a bunch of unarmed trespassers tried to "overthrow" the government.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 2, 2021 14:17 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (2 responses)

> How about you remind us how a bunch of unarmed trespassers tried to "overthrow" the government.

Sure, straight from the US congressional record:

https://www.congress.gov/117/crec/2021/01/13/CREC-2021-01...

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 2, 2021 14:25 UTC (Fri) by mmirate (guest, #143985) [Link] (1 responses)

All it contains on this matter are assertions.

Let's stop here

Posted Jul 2, 2021 14:35 UTC (Fri) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

This has gone rather far off topic for LWN; this seems like a good time to stop.

Thank you.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 2, 2021 21:23 UTC (Fri) by sdalley (subscriber, #18550) [Link]

Thank you, we can watch what actually happened and judge for ourselves:
https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000007606996...

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 2, 2021 20:56 UTC (Fri) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link] (16 responses)

I don't think facebook should be in charge of deciding which content is real and which is fake news. They have proved time and again that their miss rate is very high.

In any case, the moment you have an "algorithm" that is deciding what to show to users and what to bury deep so that it will never be seen, you are no longer a content aggregator but are editorializing, so should be subject to all the same rules that the press has.

Facebook, reddit, and so on should decide to either just sort by timestamp or follow the law. For example in Italy in election periods all parties must be given space, the editor must be registered with the journalist association and can be fined for falsely accusing people and so on.

I think social media is basically avoiding regulations by writing an algorithm to do this job rather than a person, and claiming that somehow what algorithms written by people do, doesn't count.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 2, 2021 22:14 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (15 responses)

> Facebook, reddit, and so on should decide to either just sort by timestamp or follow the law. For example in Italy in election periods all parties must be given space, the editor must be registered with the journalist association and can be fined for falsely accusing people and so on.

You forget that Facebook (etc) *do* follow the law. So what you are actually asking for is for the law to be changed. But keep in mind that on Facebook's home turf, changing the law would effectively require a constitutional amendment, something that would have significant consequences for everyone that isn't Facebook too.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 3:37 UTC (Sat) by mbg (subscriber, #4940) [Link] (14 responses)

Dean Baker makes a convincing (to me) argument that removing Facebook's Section 230 protections would go a long way to cleaning things up:

https://www.cepr.net/is-repealing-section-230-the-way-to-...

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 5:10 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (11 responses)

This would be stupid. There's no way for Facebook to moderate ALL of the user content like regular newspapers can.

And then there's a question about how to write a law so it would apply ONLY to Facebook. Wouldn't it be sad if LWN had to close comments section because they'd be liable for anything illegal going on in it?

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 6:09 UTC (Sat) by mbg (subscriber, #4940) [Link] (4 responses)

It doesn't need to apply only to Facebook. Presumably it would apply to all social media companies. There could be a carve-out for small and/or community-based orgs. I believe similar arrangements apply under European law.

I thought we agreed that Facebook's current business model is socially destructive; so much the better if it is also illegal!

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 6:16 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (3 responses)

> It doesn't need to apply only to Facebook. Presumably it would apply to all social media companies.
Slashdot is social media. LWN is social media. Linux kernel mailing list even might qualify.

> There could be a carve-out for small and/or community-based orgs. I believe similar arrangements apply under European law.
Europe in general doesn't hold social networks liable for user-generated content. They are protected by Section 230-like "Directive 2000/31/EC", specifically article 14.

It starts with: "Where an information society service is provided that consists of the storage of information provided by a recipient of the service, Member States shall ensure that the service provider is not liable for the information stored at the request of a recipient of the service"

> I thought we agreed that Facebook's current business model is socially destructive; so much the better if it is also illegal!
I haven't agreed. And I don't use Facebook.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 6:34 UTC (Sat) by mbg (subscriber, #4940) [Link] (2 responses)

I was thinking of the exceptions under Article 17 of the EU Copyright Directive. No need to worry about pre-screening for copyright infringement if you are a genuine common carrier or Wikipedia, for example.

https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/library/guidance-article-17-directive-2019790-copyright-digital-single-market

From memory under at least one article there were exceptions for community-based organisations and business below a threshold turnover.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 6:42 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

Article 14 provides protection for social media sites. They just need to take down content that is clearly illegal once requested.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 7:08 UTC (Sat) by mbg (subscriber, #4940) [Link]

Sure, was just giving an example of how exceptions could work.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 13:27 UTC (Sat) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link] (5 responses)

It would be their problem to figure it out.

The difference with LWN comments is that they are just sorted by time and all appear there. Facebook doesn't work like this.

Some articles will appear A LOT and some won't appear at all. They decide which is which.

For example during last USA elections, even though I don't even live in USA, FB kept suggesting me to join Trump groups. Not once a Biden group was suggested to me. And certainly if I was a USA citizen I wouldn't be voting Trump.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 3, 2021 23:01 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (4 responses)

> The difference with LWN comments is that they are just sorted by time and all appear there.
So?

> For example during last USA elections, even though I don't even live in USA, FB kept suggesting me to join Trump groups. Not once a Biden group was suggested to me. And certainly if I was a USA citizen I wouldn't be voting Trump.
So?

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 4, 2021 8:00 UTC (Sun) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link] (3 responses)

So one is making a decision on what is there and one isn't.

Once you are deciding, you should be held responsible on the decision you make.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 4, 2021 8:01 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

> So one is making a decision on what is there and one isn't.
Facebook can just become Google Groups and turn off suggestions. It won't affect the content that is shared by users within those groups.

> Once you are deciding, you should be held responsible on the decision you make.
Offering pro or anti-Trump groups is not illegal.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 5, 2021 5:50 UTC (Mon) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

I have no idea about USA law, I think it's wild capitalism, so one could just go and buy all the media and never ever talk about one of the candidates :D

However that is certainly not the case in every country, as I said before. So yes depending where you are, it is illegal.

Facebook is avoiding to call itself a news source to avoid the law, but I'm arguing that their argument to avoid the law should not be allowed, since they very much act as a news source that decides what to publish in 1st page and what to bury.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 6, 2021 4:57 UTC (Tue) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link]

Actually I believe bans have happened on LWN, correct? I could be wrong.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 6, 2021 4:56 UTC (Tue) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link]

I think a better approach to cleaning things up would be for users to remove themselves from Facebook - particularly Facebook proper.

If you really need social media to communicate with others, the other offerings from Facebook are better: Instagram seems to have yet to be turned into a news feed, and What's App isn't a total privacy nightmare.

Heck, there are probably even better apps for one's conspiracy theory fix, if that's your thing (on any part of the political spectrum)

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 6, 2021 9:07 UTC (Tue) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

It might be worth reading the history of Section 230 protections to get why common carrier is not necessarily a good answer.

Before section 230, many providers made an effort to be common carriers, which implies no moderation of content. The actual posters were hard to track, so out of reach, but the sites would refuse to even risk doing things like taking down child abuse images proactively, for fear of losing common carrier status.

Section 230 clarified this, by saying that sites are never responsible for content posted by another user, simply on the basis that they host it and serve it up; instead, you have to find some other reason why the site should be liable.

The problem comes in with the way people interpret this - because you have to show more than just hosting and serving to show liability for content, people don't pursue sites for things that Section 230 doesn't cover. This is partly because, in the old media rules, all you had to show was that the publisher printed something to establish liability; S.230 means that serving content isn't enough, even if there is moderation, unless you can show some other reason that the publisher should be liable.

The lawsuit around SnapChat's speed filter is a good example; there is no S.230 protection there because the cause is the existence of "hidden" awards for using filters in a certain way, along with the speed filter showing very high speeds. This isn't about the content people post - it's about the app design.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 10, 2021 17:31 UTC (Sat) by midol (guest, #25855) [Link]

it's worth looking at the list of finders of the Poynter Foundation, who organize the fact checking : https://www.poynter.org/international-fact-checking-netwo... Of note may be the tax filings, linked at that same page.

Mozilla Rally: trading privacy for the "public good"

Posted Jul 22, 2021 22:34 UTC (Thu) by Irazen (guest, #153390) [Link]

The bibliography has been very helpful in regards to the knowledge that you have learned from all the case studies on platforms for the people who have used the application that shows the data they implemented online.
Furthermore I really appreciate and enjoyed reading the article. Much respect ✊🏾


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