Prospects for free software in cars

Posted Apr 10, 2018 18:28 UTC (Tue) by aigarius (subscriber, #7329)
Parent article: Prospects for free software in cars

I do work in car industry (specifically BMW) and basically the author is correct. Car industry is really, really slow place to *any* kind of change due to super long release cycles. It takes up to 8 years to develop a new car model from scratch. Sooo, even more than Debian :) So if you were looking for some car-based software project that would reflect current attitude towards open source, then you'd only see that on the market in 6-8 years. But there are people on the inside that are driving for change, easy stuff first, then something harder.

One thing that I do not agree with the author is assigning the ther reluctance to customer-modifiable car software to a profit motive. There are very few car companies that actually offer much in the way of for-profit software services on their cars after they are sold. The motivation is solidly in the safety and reliability area - a faulty component in the car can affect other systems. Even if there is direct connection between the components via one of many in-car communication busses, then even just disturbing the 12V common power system can have bad side-effects on the performance of other car systems. Add in autonomous driving software and you are really in for a ride.

It is more likely that some cars would start coming out with a modified Android tablet as the in-vehicle infotainment platform (which you then could possibly re-flash as all the functionality is in apps) communicating with a infotainment hub device (using the same software as now, receiving commands from apps on the tablet over in-car WiFi). Kind of an open-API car.

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Prospects for free software in cars

Posted Apr 11, 2018 7:28 UTC (Wed) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link] (3 responses)

It's funny how everyone wants to use Android for arbitrary form factor work, like kiosks and and in-dash entertainment, and yet Google is strongly resistant to taking android outside the approved form factors.

I dunno the solution here. Maybe Google will decide to sell Android to the people who want it, or maybe sailfish might eventually get some love.

Prospects for free software in cars

Posted Apr 12, 2018 13:34 UTC (Thu) by ortalo (guest, #4654) [Link] (2 responses)

In my opinion, it's not the form factor, it's the application field. Those who want to use Android in (critical) systems just want the software, they do not want the (critical) liability; they also silently want Google to take that. This is probably what Google does not want to allow (especially via a third-party). Just my personal (unreliable) feeling, but I doubt that Android is ready for this kind of domain, and even if it was, the price would certainly be very different (and the supply contract certainly extremely long and dense).

Prospects for free software in cars

Posted Apr 12, 2018 18:02 UTC (Thu) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

Android's native environment used to be considered critical systems. Smartphones these days are so notoriously flaky with all the Windows-style crapware installed on them that hardly anyone is up in arms at dropped calls or sporadic reboots any more. I already don't trust it to reliably get me through to the emergency services if the need arises, no way do I want it in charge of a 3-ton guided missile that can create a need for them in the first place.

Prospects for free software in cars

Posted Apr 12, 2018 18:40 UTC (Thu) by aigarius (subscriber, #7329) [Link]

For starters anyone doing Android in this kind of area would likely use AOSP, so there is no relationship with Google, no arbitrary third-party app access and there is still full control of the platform. What Android gives you there is an abstraction layer to run your in-car services on top of, as apps. The key is that then you are just securing the operating system layer and relying on sandboxing to protect your car systems from malicious apps.

Prospects for free software in cars

Posted Apr 11, 2018 7:50 UTC (Wed) by mjthayer (guest, #39183) [Link] (3 responses)

> One thing that I do not agree with the author is assigning the ther reluctance to customer-modifiable car software to a profit motive. There are very few car companies that actually offer much in the way of for-profit software services on their cars after they are sold. The motivation is solidly in the safety and reliability area - a faulty component in the car can affect other systems.

The freedom to replace the software on safety-critical components is certainly one thing. The freedom for other people to replace the software in safety-critical components of their own car which will be sharing the road with yours might be another. Even if there are laws to regulate it there will always be people with enough self-confidence (in several ways) to push the laws.

Prospects for free software in cars

Posted Apr 11, 2018 15:31 UTC (Wed) by miahfost (guest, #51602) [Link]

Indeed, many car owners 'chip' their cars using grey market ECUs to change the fuel mixture to squeeze out a little more performance. This can produce a miniature environmental catastrophe by creating clouds of black smoke and pollutants pouring from the exhaust pipe. This pushing of the law is dangerous to the health of lots of people and I think there is a fair argument for regulating the practice.

Prospects for free software in cars

Posted Apr 13, 2018 1:35 UTC (Fri) by wookey (guest, #5501) [Link]

The freedom to replace the software on safety-critical components is certainly one thing. The freedom for other people to replace the software in safety-critical components of their own car which will be sharing the road with yours might be another. Even if there are laws to regulate it there will always be people with enough self-confidence (in several ways) to push the laws.

They can already do this with all the mechanical components. There is no reason to make things more restrictive just because some components are now software. People (especially regulators and manufacturers) get all restrictive and nervous as soon as something is made of software, but that's because they can understand a 3rd-party track-rod end, or even engine, but not changing software components. But we know better: software is a replaceable component (that needs to meet certain criteria to make it suitable for the job), just like hardware is. The volkswagen debacle demonstrates beautifully why this software should be inspectable and replaceable. Surprisingly the people most on our side in this are farmers, who have very expensive machinery that they used to be able to repair, but no longer can, because proprietary software. They want a 'right to repair/maintain', just like we do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8JCh0owT4w

Prospects for free software in cars

Posted Apr 13, 2018 8:25 UTC (Fri) by nhippi (subscriber, #34640) [Link]

Car tuning is a popular hobby, and definitely not all the mods people are safe. Not mention all the DYI people saving money fixing their breaks etc. The horror stories from car inspectors would be entertaining until you remember that these people share the roads... The risks don't really change much now that we are venturing from hardware modding to software tuning.

Prospects for free software in cars

Posted Apr 11, 2018 15:24 UTC (Wed) by miahfost (guest, #51602) [Link] (1 responses)

I think you're absolutely right aigarius, the safety issue is foremost in the car maker's minds. But one can't help sometimes and look at the after-market and its sizeable profits and imagine the car makers thinking they would like a slice of that pie. In addition, some technology add-ons are very popular and lucrative, like Volvo's On Call system to site one example. These systems are often very expensive, a typical top of the line IVI system can cost 3,000 Euros, so there is a lot at stake in ensuring that users cannot bring in external apps or software.

Prospects for free software in cars

Posted Apr 13, 2018 15:05 UTC (Fri) by aigarius (subscriber, #7329) [Link]

People can now bring in third party applications and software, via Android Auto and Apple Carplay. And that is a double-edged sword. In cars with really cheap and simple infotainment system such approach can help elevate your offering to a commodity level - now all your cars have Google Maps and Spotify.

On the other hand this makes it harder on the top end manufacturers, where the systems are actually better than what a smartphone can provide. It is hard to sell an expensive car if its infotainment is functionally equivalent to a Corolla. So one has to out-Android the Android or you risk losing much more than the 3k€ for the professional model of the IVI - you risk losing a sale.

Luckily there are some nuances to in-car usage that Android is not very well equipped to handle, like the fact that it is really hard to control things with a touchscreen while you are driving. Scroll wheels work much better. But Android apps are not as easy to adapt to that kind of input. There is also a plethora of extra sensors in a car that a tablet simply can not have, such as wheel rotation and steering angle sensors that can give you positioning information when GPS is not available or seat occupancy sensors with positional microphones to detect who is giving a command and adjusting climate only in the position where they are sitting.