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Devuan Jessie beta released

Devuan Jessie beta released

Posted May 1, 2016 20:12 UTC (Sun) by itvirta (guest, #49997)
In reply to: Devuan Jessie beta released by mgb
Parent article: Devuan Jessie beta released

I for one would be happy to read a well-written piece about the technical problems people have met with systemd. Just so that I might know how to work around them
if I happen to meet any myself. And I mean _technical_ problems, not political ones. The original text of the announcement only mentions "problems introduced by systemd"
without specifying any such. All I see is senseless rhetoric, closing on the type one sees in the real world regarding, well, any sensitive subject where feeling and fear-based arguments are the only ones you have.

The funny thing is, I tried browsing through the Devuan web site and still didn't see any technical arguments. One assumes there would be some listed,
prominently, given that avoiding the use of certain software is the main selling point of the whole project.


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Devuan Jessie beta released

Posted May 1, 2016 23:14 UTC (Sun) by larryr (guest, #4030) [Link] (4 responses)

http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/

Devuan Jessie beta released

Posted May 2, 2016 9:25 UTC (Mon) by jrigg (guest, #30848) [Link] (3 responses)

> http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/

Thanks for posting that link. The article makes heavy reading due to the verbose writing style, but it's worth the effort IMHO. I guess from the lack of other comments following the link that not many have read it all the way through.

Devuan Jessie beta released

Posted May 3, 2016 3:33 UTC (Tue) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (1 responses)

It's really heavy reading... but rum helps... aye matey... rum helps.

It's actually a rather refreshing critique.. and spends more time on contrasting systemd with everything but the existing status-quo...
its just a little dense.. or maybe I'm the dense one,,,or maybe the rum is dense..it is dark rum...so its hard to see through....
regardless... it took a couple of readings.

After a sidebar conversation with my friend Commodore Morgan, I think the most interesting bit to me in that long analysis is the repeated theme concerning systemd's dependency graph and the inability to snapshot the state of the graph for the purposes of debugging the types of loops that can be created via misconfiguration of units, especially the discussion of how implicit deps interact with the graph.

-jef

Devuan Jessie beta released

Posted May 3, 2016 7:16 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

The guy could profit a lot from taking a technical-writing course.

Devuan Jessie beta released

Posted May 4, 2016 10:04 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

It's just a bit different.

Let me put an analogy. You've used a sled with a pile of random things attached to it for years. Various sticks are picking in random direction but copious application of duct tape and bailing wire sticks everything together. You could pull it along with a few good horses but must be really careful to not destroy it. That's the current situation.

Somone comes along and proposes a nice car. Some people argue that it's not a nice thing to have because "everyone knows how to operate sled" and some like it "because you could easily do things which you couldn't do before".

And then comes this article. It explains in rather heavy writing why your design of that car is bad one, why tiller is a bad way to drive a car and that four wheels are not ideal, six would be better. This may very well be so—or not. But to give meaningful answer (indeed steering wheel is better than tiller but four wheels are usually Ok) you need to think a lot more then when you've chosen car over sled!

I, personally, am not qualified enough to give a meaningful answer for that article. I'm just not sure how severe are the problems and/or how hard and disruptive would be to change systemd to address them. I just note that sysvinit is not even mentioned in that article—and for good reason: it's dead, Jim. It's just so inadequate in today's world it's not even funny.

Systemd may not be an ideal system (what system is?) but it's so much better that what we had before that said article does not even try to fight that battle which was lost long ago. Instead if compares systemd to other, more modern systems—and, indeed, some of these have nice properties and solve some problems better than systemd. Which is nice: it means that systemd could be improved. Will it be improved? I have no idea—but this discussion does not belong to the thread where "let's preserve the sled!" Devuan distribution is discussed.

Devuan Jessie beta released

Posted May 2, 2016 18:32 UTC (Mon) by davidstrauss (guest, #85867) [Link]

I gave a talk on this at last year's systemd summit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVk-NWtiIZY

Most of the issues we've encountered don't affect lighter use, though. They're issues with scale, not correctness.


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