GPL v3

Posted Aug 9, 2012 10:25 UTC (Thu) by NRArnot (subscriber, #3033)
In reply to: GPL v3 by mkerrisk
Parent article: GENIVI: moving an industry to open source

a car is a consumer device with a distinctive property: it can kill the user

Actually that argument could be applied to a toaster as well. (If the user trusts the firmware and the firmware has a bug that one day causes the toast to catch fire and set fire to the kitchen ....)

I'd suggest going a bit further than merely a "warranty void" sticker that might fall off (or be caused to fall off. WD40 works great :-) Put the device in a case that cannot be opened without cutting through something. Have a program-enable jumper that cannot be set without irreversibly recording that fact in (say) a fusible-link PROM. Surely that would suffice to prove "not our fault" in law.

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GPL v3

Posted Aug 10, 2012 8:17 UTC (Fri) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link] (18 responses)

> Actually that argument could be applied to a toaster as well. (If the user trusts the firmware and the firmware has a bug that one day causes the toast to catch fire and set fire to the kitchen ....)

The question is not just whether it 'can' kill the user, but how 'likely' that is. One way to determine that is to ask:

- How often are people killed by toaster accidents?
- How often are people killed by car accidents?

GPL v3

Posted Aug 10, 2012 15:05 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

do you measure by the number of toasters in use vs the number of cars in use, or by the number of hours that toasters are used vs the number of hours that cars are used?

I suspect that if you measured by the number of hours they are in use, the numbers would be a lot closer than you expect.

GPL v3

Posted Aug 10, 2012 15:24 UTC (Fri) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link] (2 responses)

> do you measure by the number of toasters in use vs the number of cars in use, or by the number of hours that toasters are used vs the number of hours that cars are used?

I honestly measure the totals (as in total # of injured or killed by per year), as that gives the cost of the toast/car safety to society (which are different words for "how likely a citizen to suffer from it").

It amounts to my original question asking how many are killed (or injured) by either per year in total.

(Now for the absurd argument...) Active volcano's are far more dangerous than toasters or cars /per minute/ but since the amount of minutes I get exposed to them is so low, I tend to worry a lot more about cars. (No, I don't have any idea of how we could hack a volcano (sorry)).

GPL v3

Posted Aug 10, 2012 15:38 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

raw fatality numbers are about the worst possible value to use when comparing two things and how dangerous they are.

to compare the risk you need to evaluate the costs compared to the amount of usage.

or you can do a risk analysis from a cost/benefit point of view, but there you again can't just compare the cost, you would have to quantify the benefits of the particular tool/technology.

Just comparing the resulting costs leads to absurd conclusions.

GPL v3

Posted Aug 10, 2012 15:55 UTC (Fri) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link]

> raw fatality numbers are about the worst possible value to use when comparing two things and how dangerous they are.

Go back and re-read my post.

I am not -in the least- interested in measuring the absolute danger level of something per minute (see the volcano example). I am interested in much danger that is for me, or my family, or my neighbor (I don't worry about volcanos).

The total is already the combination of danger per minute and rate of usage thought society.

> or you can do a risk analysis from a cost/benefit point of view, but there you again can't just compare the cost, you would have to quantify the benefits of the particular tool/technology.

My whole point in this discussion is that using toaster analogies with cars is pointless. Cars are far more dangerous, as in `the actual likelihood one will suffer from it in the next 12 months`.

GPL v3

Posted Aug 10, 2012 15:20 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (13 responses)

You need to ask other questions too. How often are toaster-induced fatalities triggered by end-user modifications? How often are car-induced fatalities triggered by end-user modifications? How much could these rates go up if large-scale modifications were permitted?

I think you'll find that most toaster-induced fatalities are fires and electrical-system failures (particularly in the US with your literally terrifying electrical regulations, plugs that can shoot sparks when you unplug devices and all that): modifications to toasters are rare and generally the worst you'll do is make it not work. I think you'll find that most car-induced fatalities are caused by human error and/or the car functioning as designed, or by failure of manufacturer-provided systems. Car hardware is modded all the time: do those mods increase the fatality rate perceptibly?

I have no idea if this is true: I don't drive. I know that *some* mods, e.g. bull bars, *do* increase the fatality rate, but in the US, land of the SUV, bull bars are probably provided by the manufacturer and don't count as end-user mods. Heck, I wouldn't be *too* surprised to find the manufacturers providing sharp spikes on the front to get inconvenient pedestrians out of the way, and hood-mounted cannon to rapidly clear those unfortunate traffic jams. :P

I note that it is perfectly legal to modify your car to do all sorts of things, but that in the UK at least you have to regularly pass a test to make sure the thing is roadworthy before you can drive it anywhere but on a private road: so mods that made the car notably more likely to roll over onto pedestrians would probably be detected. It seems unlikely that mods to in-car entertainment systems would be anywhere near that dangerous -- but it is also true that your average garage owners cannot possibly diagnose faults in the software the way they can diagnose problematic hardware mods, and there's not much chance of government regulation keeping up with it either (at least in the UK, this is regulation enabled by legislation, not legislation itself: the MOT is routinely revised without Parliamentary involvement, but revisions to cover software mods seem hard to implement).

So I am of two minds -- and literally an outsider in this, since I'm about as likely to learn to drive as I am to learn to swim in molten rock.

GPL v3

Posted Aug 16, 2012 19:08 UTC (Thu) by Kluge (subscriber, #2881) [Link] (12 responses)

I think you'll find that most toaster-induced fatalities are fires and electrical-system failures (particularly in the US with your literally terrifying electrical regulations, plugs that can shoot sparks when you unplug devices and all that)...

This is waaay off-topic, but I would be very interested in hearing how and why the US electrical regulations are so terrifying.

GPL v3

Posted Aug 16, 2012 21:37 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (10 responses)

US electrical plugs are horrible. They can be too easily unplugged and it's actually _possible_ to touch plug's tines while they are still in contact with the wall socket. Doubleplusungood.

Most European countries adopted a plug design where the plug is recessed into the socket so any sparks are contained within it and naked live wires can't be physically touched.

Besides, US voltage is 110V versus 220-240V in Europe, so it gives rise to much higher (4 times) currents and much higher ohmic heating of wires.

GPL v3

Posted Aug 16, 2012 21:47 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (5 responses)

> Most European countries adopted a plug design where the plug is recessed into the socket so any sparks are contained within it and naked live wires can't be physically touched.

that must be a relatively recent development (it wasn't that way the last time I traveled)

what do the power strips and extension cords look like that have this sort of protection?

by the way, as for the voltage difference, the argument can also be made that the higher European voltage is more dangerous.

but voltage differences are not "terrifying regulations", nor are they regulations that allow "shoot sparks when you unplug devices" (something that's more likely with higher voltages)

GPL v3

Posted Aug 16, 2012 23:47 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

It's ancient, at least 30 years old. Extension cords look like this: http://ufa.dorus.ru/photos/1109129.jpg or http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Surge_...

>but voltage differences are not "terrifying regulations", nor are they regulations that allow "shoot sparks when you unplug devices" (something that's more likely with higher voltages)
Sparks probably also happen within European plugs, but they happen _within_ them.

GPL v3

Posted Aug 17, 2012 12:16 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Yes, sparks do happen and I've seen them even recently (due to a voltaic arc between socket and plug pin, I believe). But as you say they are contained in the socket. With the old flat design sparks could come dangerously close to fabrics or even your own hand.

GPL v3

Posted Aug 17, 2012 13:19 UTC (Fri) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link] (2 responses)

If you design the plug like this: http://www.electronic-shisha-charcoal.com/images/euro-plu... (that's a non-grounded one), with only the tips made out of conductive material, then the entire conducting surface is inside the hole before electrical connection is made.

No, this ain't new. It's been this way for atleast a decade, possibly 2.

GPL v3

Posted Aug 24, 2012 22:24 UTC (Fri) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link]

The radio I got as a kid had such a plug. That was in the late 1970s or early 1980s… (so about 30-35 years ago).

GPL v3

Posted Aug 24, 2012 23:49 UTC (Fri) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

It's been this way for atleast a decade, possibly 2.

As a matter of fact, that type of plug was standardised in the early 1960s. It has been around literally for generations.

This »Europlug« design is popular for devices requiring up to 2.5 A which do not need to be grounded, in all European countries except the UK, Ireland, and a few other places that use the UK system like Malta or Cyprus. The Swiss system is also subtly different. There are other, more sturdy plugs used for equipment that requires stronger currents, must be earthed, or is used outside.

The UK system uses large plugs with three rectangular prongs. These plugs are usually fused, and are incompatible with the Europlug, although UK bathrooms will often feature Europlug sockets to accommodate electric shavers. It is possible to manufacture »converter« plugs that fit around a Europlug, contain the requisite fuse, and have the three prongs required for a UK socket.

GPL v3

Posted Aug 17, 2012 13:21 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (3 responses)

I will admit that the European recessed design is nice: I wish the UK added recessing to its earthed socket design, but changing the entire installed base of plugs and sockets is so hard that it's unlikely ever to happen.

GPL v3

Posted Aug 20, 2012 9:50 UTC (Mon) by etienne (guest, #25256) [Link] (2 responses)

> UK ... earthed socket design

Ever seen someone using a pair of scissor in the earth of a UK socket to open the live holes and plug-in by force a european 2 pin plug?

GPL v3

Posted Aug 20, 2012 12:08 UTC (Mon) by BlueLightning (subscriber, #38978) [Link] (1 responses)

For conformant EU plugs and UK sockets, the pins are too large and narrowly spaced for that to work.

GPL v3

Posted Aug 20, 2012 22:25 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Yes, but there do exist (cheap and horrible firetrap) adaptors which convert EU prong spacing into UK prong spacing without bothering to provide anything as plebeian as an earth prong. Then the scissor trick is needed.

It is perhaps thirty years since I saw anyone resorting to *that*. :)

GPL v3

Posted Aug 17, 2012 13:19 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

The plug and socket design is horrible: two pin, no earth, easily broken, easily touched when removing or inserting plugs, with live interiors of sockets often accessible trivially (not shielded). None of this is true of (in particular) UK three-pin sockets, which are almost always switched and separately fused, with further fusing at the house ring mains, in the street, and at the transformer (which is *not* per-house, but often per-street or per-block, allowing significantly greater efficiency and protection than the per-house scheme common in the US). The higher voltage also means that it is exceedingly rare for plugs or cables to even get warm, let alone hot enough to set anything on fire.

There are minimal regulations regarding electrical equipment in waterlogged areas like bathrooms: the UK forbids anything not internally earthed, anything running at above trivial voltages and in certain parts of the bathroom forbids anything electrical at all modulo pull cords. You never, ever see things like washing machines in bathrooms, and it is very rare for people to get electrocuted in bathrooms (the primary cause is manufacturing defects in electric showers).

Electrical fires and fatal electrocutions still happen in the UK, but they are so rare as to be national news when they do happen. So, yes, from my perspective US domestic electrical regulations are terrifyingly lax.

The real reason for all this of course is that electric kettles are ubiquitous in the UK, and we need our cups of tea fast! :)