lsaul-2
Joined Jul 2004
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lsaul-2's rating
Well, that would have made for a tough film to sit through, don't you think, guys?
Although it's true that that first read-through was probably pretty rough.
Here is a short quotation from Ries via Thayer, which shows how well the filmmakers did their homework:
"...Here it happened that Beethoven, who was directing (the Eroica) himself, in the second part of the first Allegro where the music is pursued for so many measures in half-notes against the beat, threw the orchestra off in such a way that a new beginning had to be made." In the first Allegro occurs a mischievous whim (bose Laune) of Beethoven's for the first horn; in the second part, several measures before the theme recurs in its entirety, Beethoven has the horn suggest it (the theme: LS) at a place where the two violins are still holding a second chord (the violins are suggesting a Bb7 chord -- the *dominant* of Eb Major, whereas the horn is playing the theme (a simple arpeggio) in Eb Major, a harmony which sounded quite "wrong" to 1803 ears!: LS). To one unfamiliar with the score this must always sound as if the horn player made a miscount and entered at the wrong place. At the first rehearsal of the symphony, __which was horrible__, but at which the horn player made his entry correctly, I stood beside Beethoven, and, thinking that a blunder had been made I said: 'Can't the damned hornist count" -- it sounds infamously false!' I think I came pretty close to receiving a box on the ear. (Much more dramatic to come *more* than "pretty close"!: LS) Beethoven did not forgive the slip for a long time."
Thayer goes on to describe yet another rehearsal which Lobkowitz arranged for another prince, Louis Ferdinand of Prussia:
"To give him (Louis Ferdinand: LS) a surprise, the new, and of course, to him utterly unknown symphony, was played to the Prince, who 'listened to it with tense attention which grew with every movement.' At the close he proved his admiration by requesting the favor of an immediate repetition; and, after an hour's pause, as his stay was too limited to admit of another concert, a second. (In other words, it was performed *three* times!: LS). The impression made by the music was general and its lofty contents were now recognized."
In any event, I adore this made-for-television gem! Two things that make this film great are:
1. We get to hear a period-instrument performance by one of the best such orchestras around!
2. We get to immerse ourselves in Beethoven's world for a few hours, all done very beautifully. (The scenes *following* the performance are delicious!) HIGHLY recommended.
LS
Although it's true that that first read-through was probably pretty rough.
Here is a short quotation from Ries via Thayer, which shows how well the filmmakers did their homework:
"...Here it happened that Beethoven, who was directing (the Eroica) himself, in the second part of the first Allegro where the music is pursued for so many measures in half-notes against the beat, threw the orchestra off in such a way that a new beginning had to be made." In the first Allegro occurs a mischievous whim (bose Laune) of Beethoven's for the first horn; in the second part, several measures before the theme recurs in its entirety, Beethoven has the horn suggest it (the theme: LS) at a place where the two violins are still holding a second chord (the violins are suggesting a Bb7 chord -- the *dominant* of Eb Major, whereas the horn is playing the theme (a simple arpeggio) in Eb Major, a harmony which sounded quite "wrong" to 1803 ears!: LS). To one unfamiliar with the score this must always sound as if the horn player made a miscount and entered at the wrong place. At the first rehearsal of the symphony, __which was horrible__, but at which the horn player made his entry correctly, I stood beside Beethoven, and, thinking that a blunder had been made I said: 'Can't the damned hornist count" -- it sounds infamously false!' I think I came pretty close to receiving a box on the ear. (Much more dramatic to come *more* than "pretty close"!: LS) Beethoven did not forgive the slip for a long time."
Thayer goes on to describe yet another rehearsal which Lobkowitz arranged for another prince, Louis Ferdinand of Prussia:
"To give him (Louis Ferdinand: LS) a surprise, the new, and of course, to him utterly unknown symphony, was played to the Prince, who 'listened to it with tense attention which grew with every movement.' At the close he proved his admiration by requesting the favor of an immediate repetition; and, after an hour's pause, as his stay was too limited to admit of another concert, a second. (In other words, it was performed *three* times!: LS). The impression made by the music was general and its lofty contents were now recognized."
In any event, I adore this made-for-television gem! Two things that make this film great are:
1. We get to hear a period-instrument performance by one of the best such orchestras around!
2. We get to immerse ourselves in Beethoven's world for a few hours, all done very beautifully. (The scenes *following* the performance are delicious!) HIGHLY recommended.
LS
>>>The professor is Hyakken Uchida (Tatsuo Matsumara, his first film for Kurosawa)
Not true. Matsumara appears in a fairly important role in Dodeskuden (1970).
**
He is brilliant here. The professor's love for his students, his cats, and his wife seem unspeakably profound. Although there are many scenes where he gets extremely emotional and cries, there are just as many shots of his serene face, still and not speaking.
And -- as usual -- the careful structure, the pacing with scenes, the rhythm of the cutting -- is all quite magical.
The cast is splendid -- the adult students are all given wonderful characterizations (i.e. the one who recites all the subway stops!)
LS
Not true. Matsumara appears in a fairly important role in Dodeskuden (1970).
**
He is brilliant here. The professor's love for his students, his cats, and his wife seem unspeakably profound. Although there are many scenes where he gets extremely emotional and cries, there are just as many shots of his serene face, still and not speaking.
And -- as usual -- the careful structure, the pacing with scenes, the rhythm of the cutting -- is all quite magical.
The cast is splendid -- the adult students are all given wonderful characterizations (i.e. the one who recites all the subway stops!)
LS
jonr-3 from Kansas City wonders if the 265-minute version will ever be released.
The answer is a definitive NO because every frame of unreleased footage no longer exists anywhere in any form.
It's a shame, because the film -- fascinating and electrifying as it is in its present form -- would probably have been one of the greatest examples of intertextual cinema of all time had it survived!
One can easily imagine what we're missing simply by examining the way that the initial scene on the train plays out as Mori explains his dream about nearly being executed to Mifune -- and then we are presented with a jarringly disturbing cut to a long intertitle, which basically seems to explain what was cut out by the studio execs [as do the many intertitles which follow]...
Kurosawa's hero-worship of Doestoevsky may be compared to his similar adoration of Gorky and his play "The Lower Depths" -- which is faithfully adapted in the 1957 filmic version -- and although it is much shorter than the tale told by The Idiot {sorry, couldn't resist!}, this reverence in no way makes the film boring or inferior. Just compare it to the 1936 Renoir version (which is quite good in many ways in its own right) to see how this faithfulness pays off...
Read the Doesty and then watch the film and fill in the blanks yourself. Kurosawa's filmic blueprint provides plenty of clues to how the missing footage might have been incorporated into this extremely underseen masterpiece.
The answer is a definitive NO because every frame of unreleased footage no longer exists anywhere in any form.
It's a shame, because the film -- fascinating and electrifying as it is in its present form -- would probably have been one of the greatest examples of intertextual cinema of all time had it survived!
One can easily imagine what we're missing simply by examining the way that the initial scene on the train plays out as Mori explains his dream about nearly being executed to Mifune -- and then we are presented with a jarringly disturbing cut to a long intertitle, which basically seems to explain what was cut out by the studio execs [as do the many intertitles which follow]...
Kurosawa's hero-worship of Doestoevsky may be compared to his similar adoration of Gorky and his play "The Lower Depths" -- which is faithfully adapted in the 1957 filmic version -- and although it is much shorter than the tale told by The Idiot {sorry, couldn't resist!}, this reverence in no way makes the film boring or inferior. Just compare it to the 1936 Renoir version (which is quite good in many ways in its own right) to see how this faithfulness pays off...
Read the Doesty and then watch the film and fill in the blanks yourself. Kurosawa's filmic blueprint provides plenty of clues to how the missing footage might have been incorporated into this extremely underseen masterpiece.
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